Witnessed an idiot bring a rep to an AD

[Bike Mike]

You didn't say the following:

"i just sat their and laughed and then thought you dumba$$", "the salesperson tossed it in the box with all the rest"

anyways.. regardless of what you said, I apologize for what might have seemed like a personal attack.. I should've chosen my words more carefully. I was pointing out that the spirit/tone of your story (not the facts) seemed in-congruent and out of place with that of the forum in general. In any case, sorry bout that.

You are correct I did say "i just sat their and laughed and then thought you dumba$$". I should have said "laughed to myself" as I thought what a dumba$$. "the salesperson tossed it in the box with all the rest" I don't know how many were in there, could have been 2 or 3. Could have been 20 G-shocks for all I know. I just know the sales rep put it in a box with other watches and took it to the back.

Like most, I am not one to call people out on their personal business, but we are all free to think of them as we wish.

No worries or apologize needed, being a engineer and I very fact oriented, very black or white not much into shades of grey, hence why I do a poor job with setting the tone of my experience relative to fact. I do enjoy this hobby (it is the only one I have that is relaxing ) and those in it for the right reasons of knowledge growth. If we happen to share common interests that makes it all the better when sitting down over a beer.

[lanikai]

Well.. like always comments are being made without "experience" or "prior" KNOWLEDGE of the facts..

Customs "Agents" are Federal employees .. not civil servants .. they brandish side arms.. are in the "service of the Federal Government" .. they have Badges that are issued by the Government of the United States of America..

I have had several conversations with a Customs Agent pertaining to "Contraband" .. now granted our watches are not on their priority list but get a rookie that want's to go by the book and you could have some problems.. take it from me they can make life very uncomfortable... as can local Law enforcement ..

so would you like to know the definition of "Contraband"?? note the underlined buzz word..

goods whose importation or exportation or possession is prohibited by law

I have not altered the wording of this statement of fact..

My pretense with my posts are mainly for the Noobs that may or may not read this thread and come away with the impression that it's their "right" to walk into an AD advertising and marketing reps.

It has been stated long before this thread that AD's have been known to confiscate reps .. weather it happens once in 5 years or 10 time in 5 years is a moot point and if that is the debate.. total BS..

Realize what we do as a "Hobby".. and keep to yourself about it when walking into an AD .. that is pretty simple me thinks..

[maxman]

I have one question for Bike Mike. Do you use Grey Poupon? That shi% Is da bomb. Much better than that nasty old yellow crap Mike

[Dudemeister]

Wow, I read this whole thread and I'm frankly having a hard time understanding the "legal" grounds that an AD would have to confiscate your property, or that they would even consider it, given the possible fallout.

The word counterfeit is used to describe copies that infringe upon the copyrights of the original owner/manufacturer. However, ownership of counterfeit has yet to be shown to be illegal in and of itself. Importing, trading, or passing counterfeit for the real item is illegal.

If every company that owned the legal or intellectual rights to something were empowered to administer its own justice, we'd be back in the Old Wild West. There are companies a lot larger than Rolex, or Cartier or whomever out there that suffer daily at the hands of counterfeiters and pirates, and they do actively try to stop the trade in those products, but they don't have the rights to go after the unwitting victims of these products the buyers.

Consider this: Microsoft coming into your house and deleting your hard drive because the copy of Windows on you machine is not legal (or worse yet, doing it automatically during an update). There would be so many lawsuits against them that even they wouldn't be able to extricate themselves out it.

MPAA or RIAA confiscating your iPod because you have "dubiously obtained" MP3s or videos. There are laws protecting their intellectual or copyrighted material, but they also protect the end users. RIAA has sued many people, and while some have knuckled under the pressure, of the ones that ended up in court, only a small percentage, those that were proven to be actively trading, were fined.

Another example: Cuban cigars are considered contraband, therefore illegal. If you tried to bring them into the country they'd get confiscated, but no one is going to try and take your Cohiba away from you if you walked into a cigar shop.

The US Customs department, is a legal arm of the United States and has been empowered to make decisions based on the letter of the law. The law says that the importation of counterfeit items is illegal and they can size those items at their discretion. But once it's in your hands, they don't have the right to come to your house and confiscate it.

Here in the good 'ol US of A, there are laws that say that protect the individual from unlawful search and seizure.

Yes I can see someone trying to pull a switch, getting caught and loosing their watch, I can see some fool trying to sell a fake at a pawn shop as a real deal and getting caught, but simply wearing one and having it taken away from you, I don't think so. If I choose to wear a fake watch, it's my business, if they (the AD or jeweler store owner or Pawn shop owner) don't want me there, they can ask me to leave, but they can't take way my property. I'd like to see them try. I can probably find a dozen or so lawyers that would take such case pro bono, and squeeze them for everything they're worth.

and that's my 2

[lanikai]

Here in the good 'ol US of A, there are laws that say that protect the individual from unlawful search and seizure.

fyi.. this has been amended .. the fourth amendment used to protect certain individuals against illegal search and seizure..

it was amended in one aspect of the law to and is known as the 'Drug Courier Profile' .. (don't ask)

AC

Lani

[plaifender]

Well.. like always comments are being made without "experience" or "prior" KNOWLEDGE of the facts..

Customs "Agents" are Federal employees .. not civil servants .. they brandish side arms.. are in the "service of the Federal Government" .. they have Badges that are issued by the Government of the United States of America..

Apologies.. it's a question of semantics internationally speaking. In many countries including spain where I live.. the word for "civil servant" includes all employees of the government... military, education, healthcare and any other ministry, agency, or government body. Yes true.. specifically in the u.s. the civil service are elected and appointed positions of the u.s. govt..

In this regard, I probably should have used the word "public servant" to describe a Customs agent. Although, solely a question of semantics at the international level of translation..

[Bike Mike]

I have one question for Bike Mike. Do you use Grey Poupon? That shi% Is da bomb. Much better than that nasty old yellow crap Mike

Nope, I hate that sh!t. I am content on with the yellow crap.

[maxman]

Nope, I hate that sh!t. I am content on with the yellow crap.

Oh well, to each his own.

[jdkno]

Good way of putting it. But you also know that Shelby and Factory 5 Racing spent years in legal litigation. Even though Shelby held no rights to the look of the cars, Ford & Shelby holds the right to the

[Bike Mike]

I knew about the litigation which was not limited to Shelby, Ford went after companies across the board that were using their name in any way, shape, or form to make a profit. Again we are back at the manufacturer vs. someone profiting off of their name, not the end user. You can put Shelby, Cobra, Ford, or whatever you want on your vehicle and no one can do anything to you. Now if you tried to sell that car, or watch, as being a genuine your problems are two fold. You could face criminal charges of Fraud, and you could be open to a civil case for the copyright end. There in is my point; a manufacturer can not go after you criminaly for a replication, their reach is limited to civil action. I think alot of people are having a hard time seeing the line between civil matters and criminal matters.

As for the customs agent question, other than the government backing there is nothing else that allows them to "seize" any "contraban" items they come across while doing their job. They can not however stop you in a mall and detain you while they check the authenticity of your watch.

Getting off forum topic I know, but this is brings up some good points. The only reason I commented on this was because I used to work for a company that Ford came after for trademark infringement. The thing was, the company was not selling anything with Fords name on it. Long story short, the company I worked for built all kinds of prototype vehicles for all the automotive companies. In 2003 we decided to take 3 trucks (Tundra, Ram & F-150) to SEMA to show our work. We had given the trucks their names based on their themes. The Ram was named "Everest Edition". We came up with the emblem design, font and name. 1 month prior to SEMA Ford got wind of this andwe started getting phone calls from their lawyers. Unknown to us, Ford had the "Everest" name trademarked for use on vehicles. I guess all the automotive companies trademark names that they will want to use one day years in advance. After many meeting and many discussion between lawyers we had to remove the "Everest" name from the Ram. We ended up using it on the F-150, which of course Ford was fine with.

My point, is here we are building a vehicle, that the company lawfully purchased, had no intention to sell, we designed and built the mountain landscape around the word "EVEREST". There was NO intention to be profitable from any name or content as we could not even attempt to sell the vehicle for safety reasons. Joe Blow could not walk in off the street and order on of these up as they were for show purpose. We were called out by rightful owner and had to cease usage or face uphill battle. Regardless if they were within their legal means or not, I dont know but the owner was not going to invest the money to find out. Now, could Joe Blow off the street slap a EVEREST name on his Nissan. Sure! Ford is not going to waste the efforts. Can they legally do some thing if they really wanted to? I dont know, but they did to the company I worked for.

You are correct , a AD can not stop you in a mall and detain you for wearing a rep., I do not see them even wasting their time. With regards to customs, yes they have the backing of the government, but is there laws that state they can confiscate items of trademark infringement if they are for the buyers personal use and not to make profit?

Go beyond getting a rep through the mail. My buddy that got me into reps, traveled to China for work. He brought back reps all the time. He was stopped by customs during one return trip and had the 2 rep watches in his bag taken. They asked for receipts which of course he did not have and he was honest and stated they were fake. But at that time he was the rightful owner they were in his possession..

Use Cuban cigars for example

[TeeJay]

This really has been the point all along. You could get the law involved, but it has the potential to cost you more then $300.

I have seen this a handful of times. Maybe 5-6 times over the course of about 3 years at one AD I go to. Twice I saw the rep owner Try to trade their rep in for a gen. On both accounts the sales person doubted the authenticity but still gave the potential customers the benefit of the doubt. The sales person called the manager over (who I was talking to as he was a personal friend) to take a look at the piece. The manager stated that the watch was “of dubious” origin, but still gave the customers the benefit of the doubt, even asking them for papers and items to prove authenticity. Since they could not provide any type of paperwork, the manager called out one of his watch techs. The tech did not even look over the piece, he simply removed the case back and verified the pieces to be fake in front of the customer and even pointed out why (I know one was a Rolex GMT, the other I do not know). The sales person stated they are confiscating the pieces and asked the customers to leave the premises. Both did a about-face and walked out the front door with their tail between their legs. They said nothing.

The time I saw the rep watch being picked up off the counter by the sales person, and studied, the sales person stated “this watch is fake, we have to confiscate it”. The owner in a very cocky voice said “Yeah. Pretty good one isn’t it.” The sales person tossed it in the box with the rest and nothing more was said, the gentleman walked away.

I just sat their and laugh thinking what dumba$$! Thinking how stupid some people wearing a rep into a AD.

I have gotten to know the assistant manager at my local Tourneaus very well and I have asked him, “What they do if someone comes in sporting a rep.” He simply replied, “If we can verify and take it we will but avoid escalated confrontation.” Jokingly I told him I would bring mine into show him. To which he just replaied, "Go ahead, I will pair it up with the real one and I know you will buy it." I called him a bastard for taking advantage of my weakness.

Being write or wrong this has happened. I live at my AD’s as my friends work their in one way or another so I get to see some good stuff other then just the watches. I also recall this being discussed over at TRC where the same had happened.

Great thread by the way!

This is quite a different matter than someone simply wearing one on their wrist when they are on the premises and then getting it confiscated, as if someone was trying to trade them in as gen, then yes, they were breaking the law, but so were the ADs for confiscating the goods. I would love to see an AD taken to task over that.

At the end of the day, reps (in the US and UK) are not illegal to own. Illegal to sell, yes, but not illegal to own...

[lanikai]

this definition of Contraband items clearly states "possession" as illegal with import and exporting of the goods..

goods whose importation or exportation or possession is prohibited by law

I wonder if this definition applies to having it on ones person ?

So I still question weather it is legal to own once it passes Customs..

just a thought ?

L

[TeeJay]

this definition of Contraband items clearly states "possession" as illegal with import and exporting of the goods..

goods whose importation or exportation or possession is prohibited by law

I wonder if this definition applies to having it on ones person ?

So I still question weather it is legal to own once it passes Customs..

just a thought ?

L

It's an interesting point to be sure, but, I'm sure someone once posted up some local laws which stated that reps in themselves, weren't illegal to simply own, only illegal to import, or sell on.

[lanikai]

It's an interesting point to be sure, but, I'm sure someone once posted up some local laws which stated that reps in themselves, weren't illegal to simply own, only illegal to import, or sell on.

As an example of "contraband".. take the Habanos Cigars .. just because you get them past Customs does not make them legal to own.. many a case has been made ...various contraband have differing points of legality I'm sure. some more serious than others.

But let's say that you were to go by the strict "definition" of the law.. (which happens in a court of law or with Customs Agents) .. then all items deemed Contraband would in fact be illegal to Posses ..

edit add:goods whose importation or exportation or possession is prohibited by law

so the interesting point to ask is ... take the topic back to ownership .. if it is illegal to posses by law is it legal to "own".. or if you are the legal owner are you therefore breaking the law ??

that may or may not be a play on semantics.. but non the less a question that cannot be avoided .. if we're going to discuss "rights"

L

[TeeJay]

As an example of "contraband".. take the Habanos Cigars .. just because you get them past Customs does not make them legal to own.. many a case has been made ...various contraband have differing points of legality I'm sure. some more serious than others.

But let's say that you were to go by the strict "definition" of the law.. (which happens in a court of law or with Customs Agents) .. then all items deemed Contraband would in fact be illegal to Posses ..

edit add:goods whose importation or exportation or possession is prohibited by law

so the interesting point to ask is ... take the topic back to ownership .. if it is illegal to posses by law is it legal to "own".. or if you are the legal owner are you therefore breaking the law ??

that may or may not be a play on semantics.. but non the less a question that cannot be avoided .. if we're going to discuss "rights"

L

Are reps definitely classed as 'contraband', or might they be classed as 'prohibited items', such as knifes, stunguns, pepper-sprays? If the latter, then local laws would apply for their ownership, while they could be permitted 'for personal use' in one area, but deemed illegal in another area/country (as with how reps are simply illegal [haram, might be a more accurate word] to own at all, in Italy, for example)

An example which springs to mind, is the scene in Pulp Fiction where Samuel L Jackson and John Travolta are discussing the legality of hash in Amsterdam, and it is said that: "it's legal to buy it, it's legal to own it, and it's legal to smoke it in your home or certain designated places. It's illegal to carry it, but, that don't matter, 'cause if the cops stop you, it's illegal for them to search you..."

I wouldn't like to say how true this actually is, but certainly sounds like a plausible rational, and I'm wondering if it might be a reverse of that with reps, in that it's illegal to sell them, and illegal to import them, but not illegal to own them (for the sole purpose of owning, rather than selling)...

[freddy333]

There is so much bullshit in this thread I feel like I am at the rodeo.

Ditto & the s-h-i-t is so high it is getting into my boots & soiling my argyle socks.

Some of you may find this amusing

(Note that the court ordered no seizure even in the case of a fake Rolex being sold as gen )

[TeeJay]

Ditto & the s-h-i-t is so high it is getting into my boots & soiling my argyle socks.

Some of you may find this amusing

(Note that the court ordered no seizure even in the case of a fake Rolex being sold as gen )

Indeed And it was valued at $50 by an expert Maybe he should have offered $450 and the watch

[Dudemeister]

Are reps definitely classed as 'contraband', or might they be classed as 'prohibited items', such as knifes, stunguns, pepper-sprays? If the latter, then local laws would apply for their ownership, while they could be permitted 'for personal use' in one area, but deemed illegal in another area/country (as with how reps are simply illegal [haram, might be a more accurate word] to own at all, in Italy, for example)...

Contraband, is generally a classification that a country places on products which it considers useful in waging war or are dangerous or detrimental to country's security or the the public safety, for example arms, munitions, certain hazardous materials, etc. Usually these are the products of another nation which is considered to be an opposing or beligerant adversary.

There are also certain products that do not fall into the weapon type category, yet they are also listed as contraband, as they can be used to generate trade and currency, thereby empowering those nations' economy, which once again can lead to their ability to procure the means to wage war against other nations. For example Lybian produced oil is considered contraband in certain nations incuding the US.

Just because a nation considers an item cotraband, it doesn't make it so for another nation. For example, one of Cuba's largest industries is the tabacco industry. Cuban cigars are legal in just about every nation in the world, except the US which treats any Cuban product as contraband. The same was the case with South-African Diamonds and gold a few years ago when South Africa was on the US government Sh*tlist.

The Swiss government has put in place a ban on counterfeit watches as it [claims] it deeply hurts its economy, so its customs agents effectively confiscate and destroy any replicas that infringe on what they feel is their national product. They were also able to enlist other EU countries to go along with their clamp-down, and some are more effective enforcers than others, most notably Germany.

I do not know if Switzerland lists counterfeit watches as contraband, but the US does not. Reps generally fall into the counterfeit, reproduction and forgery class, and ownership of such items for personal use is not against the law as far as I know (but then again I'm not a lawyer either).

Think in terms of other replicas and reproductions. Many people would like to own a Picasso for example, but only a handful can afford one. Yet some people have reproductions of those paintings hanging in their house. As long as it's for your own enjoyment, and you don't try to sell it as the real deal, everything is OK.

I don't know how many of you (here in the US) watch PBS' Antique Roadshow. Many times people go there with what they think are genuine antiques or collectibles, only to find out they actually have a knock-off. I don't remember seeing any agents there confiscating their items once they are declared non-genuine.

[TeeJay]

Contraband, is generally a classification that a country places on products which it considers useful in waging war or are dangerous or detrimental to country's security or the the public safety, for example arms, munitions, certain hazardous materials, etc. Usually these are the products of another nation which is considered to be an opposing or beligerant adversary.

There are also certain products that do not fall into the weapon type category, yet they are also listed as contraband, as they can be used to generate trade and currency, thereby empowering those nations' economy, which once again can lead to their ability to procure the means to wage war against other nations. For example Lybian produced oil is considered contraband in certain nations incuding the US.

Just because a nation considers an item cotraband, it doesn't make it so for another nation. For example, one of Cuba's largest industries is the tabacco industry. Cuban cigars are legal in just about every nation in the world, except the US which treats any Cuban product as contraband. The same was the case with South-African Diamonds and gold a few years ago when South Africa was on the US government Sh*tlist.

The Swiss government has put in place a ban on counterfeit watches as it [claims] it deeply hurts its economy, so its customs agents effectively confiscate and destroy any replicas that infringe on what they feel is their national product. They were also able to enlist other EU countries to go along with their clamp-down, and some are more effective enforcers than others, most notably Germany.

I do not know if Switzerland lists counterfeit watches as contraband, but the US does not. Reps generally fall into the counterfeit, reproduction and forgery class, and ownership of such items for personal use is not against the law as far as I know (but then again I'm not a lawyer either).

Think in terms of other replicas and reproductions. Many people would like to own a Picasso for example, but only a handful can afford one. Yet some people have reproductions of those paintings hanging in their house. As long as it's for your own enjoyment, and you don't try to sell it as the real deal, everything is OK.

I don't know how many of you (here in the US) watch PBS' Antique Roadshow. Many times people go there with what they think are genuine antiques or collectibles, only to find out they actually have a knock-off. I don't remember seeing any agents there confiscating their items once they are declared non-genuine.

That was certainly the thoughts I was having about the legality of owning reps, as opposed to anything else like narcotics/certain weapons etc which would definitely be considered 'seize on sight' illegal items to carry.

[Bike Mike]

I do not know if Switzerland lists counterfeit watches as contraband, but the US does not. Reps generally fall into the counterfeit, reproduction and forgery class, and ownership of such items for personal use is not against the law as far as I know (but then again I'm not a lawyer either).

Then all of us in the States should be able to live without fear of Customs seizures. Unfortunatly this is not the case.

No lawyers around here?

[lanikai]

I do not know if Switzerland lists counterfeit watches as contraband, but the US does not. Reps generally fall into the counterfeit, reproduction and forgery class, and ownership of such items for personal use is not against the law as far as I know (but then again I'm not a lawyer either).

Think in terms of other replicas and reproductions. Many people would like to own a Picasso for example, but only a handful can afford one. Yet some people have reproductions of those paintings hanging in their house. As long as it's for your own enjoyment, and you don't try to sell it as the real deal, everything is OK.

Going by what the Border Patrol list as "contraband"... reps. are on that "list" other euphemisms are "counterfeit", or "fake" but the "fact" remains that the Border Patrol Office "says" quoting a Customs Supervisor... "it does not matter if you are using it for "personal" enjoyment or as a Hobby.. it is still illegal..and you should be very careful".. the inflection was on "be very careful"

with this coming from the " US Border Patrol", I would be inclined to believe it as gospel ..

As for weapons.. that is without saying a no brainer and far exceeds "contraband" ..

Before President Kennedy place the embargo on Cuba he ordered the Secret Service to procure him enough boxes of his fav vitola's to last a long while.. why Customs is taking such a hard look at people bringing in cigars from Cuba is the Attorney General issued a letter to all branches of the Office of Homeland Security (several years ago) to treat this item with extreme prejudice .. and that is pretty much all it would take for our reps to be treated the same..

Honolulu customs confiscates reps (depending on the Agent involved).. so it's a crap shoot here.. once your name and addy is targeted it is in the system, so if you are from the islands and you get hit.. chances are you will have a hard time for reps to come directly here .. and you best find alternative means.

Reproductions of Art work is another story entirely.. they are "not" on the list of contraband items.. however.. years ago an art gallery got into a big mess selling "unauthorized" lithographs of Salvador Dali prints.. but I regress.. the bottom line is it is not on the official list of contraband "illegal" items.. although it needs to be declared .. usually by independent brokerage firms that people hire for such items.

Reptilian hide .. unless you have a CITIES certificate that arrives along with the hide, is contraband and protected by the Endangered Species Act .... funny how all the gator hides come from Louisiana go to Asia but cannot reenter the US without a CITIES certificate..

The same goes for tobacco.. this comes under "trade" laws.. tobacco that leaves the US cannot be brought back to the US although it is contraband and dealt with under Homeland Security it falls under the jurisdiction of the "ATF" Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms ... as does the issue with firearms that was alluded to earlier..(FBI also has jurisdiction with firearms entering the US illegally).. that is my understanding from people that belong to the branches mentioned.

so for discussion the word still stands (illegal to posses) and I would not like to be the one to challenge it..

again common sense prevails over "jail house attorneys"

AC

Lani

[Bike Mike]

Before President Kennedy place the embargo on Cuba he ordered the Secret Service to procure him enough boxes of his fav vitola's to last a long while..

The same goes for tobacco.. this comes under "trade" laws.. tobacco that leaves the US cannot be brought back to the US although it is contraband and dealt with under Homeland Security it falls under the jurisdiction of the "ATF" Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms ... as does the issue with firearms that was alluded to earlier..(FBI also has jurisdiction with firearms entering the US illegally).. that is my understanding from people that belong to the branches mentioned.

AC

Lani

I have read that story about Kennedy. They got him about 60 boxes before he signed the embargo. It is legal to own pre-embargo Cubans. They are just extremely hard and very $$$$ to come by.

You can leave the US (at least to Canada anyway) with tobacco products such as cigarettes and return as long as it if for personal consumption. This is what I was told by Home Land Security/Boarder patrol when I had to cross back and forth from Canada on a daily basis. 4 packs of cigarettes is what they considered for personal consumption or previously exported. Same with purchasing tobacco products (less Cuban Cigars) from other countries and bringing it back into the US. As long as it is for personal consumption. Anything over 200 cigarettes was subject to tax. This does fall under the ATF as also when ever I would bring back alcohol and ammunition. It is all about quantity.

[TeeJay]

Going by what the Border Patrol list as "contraband"... reps. are on that "list" other euphemisms are "counterfeit", or "fake" but the "fact" remains that the Border Patrol Office "says" quoting a Customs Supervisor... "it does not matter if you are using it for "personal" enjoyment or as a Hobby.. it is still illegal..and you should be very careful".. the inflection was on "be very careful"

with this coming from the " US Border Patrol", I would be inclined to believe it as gospel ..

But does that only apply to when items are being physically brought across the border, and while subject to customs checks, or does that extend to items which are already across the border, in someone's possession, and then 'somehow spotted'? As Freddy mentioned when posting the video clip above, the watch was not seized, and, now I think about it, as far as I remember, neither was OJ Simpson's Rolex seized when it was discovered to be counterfeit, but I believe, was returned to him

[lanikai]

I have read that story about Kennedy. They got him about 60 boxes before he signed the embargo. It is legal to own pre-embargo Cubans. They are just extremely hard and very $$$$ to come by.

You can leave the US (at least to Canada anyway) with tobacco products such as cigarettes and return as long as it if for personal consumption. This is what I was told by Home Land Security/Boarder patrol when I had to cross back and forth from Canada on a daily basis. 4 packs of cigarettes is what they considered for personal consumption or previously exported. Same with purchasing tobacco products (less Cuban Cigars) from other countries and bringing it back into the US. As long as it is for personal consumption. Anything over 200 cigarettes was subject to tax. This does fall under the ATF as also when ever I would bring back alcohol and ammunition. It is all about quantity.

... President Kennedy loved his petite coronas ... I have in my collection some pre-embargoed cigars.. they are machined rolled (a lot of the older brands used machines back then) the cigar itself is still good the oils have been kept well .. but I keep them as collectibles .. also the Davidoff's, D.P's made before he was kicked out of Cuba... have a few of the original Trinidad before they were released to the public .. (gold band)..back then they were used only for Diplomatic gifts..

yeah.. I had to do a lot of research with customs brokers for bringing in cigars .. you just cannot import tobacco that has been sold from the US to other countries then sold back in this region.. personal use not among this statement..

I remember Canada as being very rigid .. when we used to travel from Washington State to Vancouver.. back in my college days.. .. but then again we were carrying smokables that weren't tobacco products..

AC

L

[lanikai]

still Dp.. system glitch again