wraithride Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 I hope this isn't a repost, and if so, I apologize. I found this quite interesting on several levels.. Part 1 http://www.youtube.c...e&v=namj9CES-TE Part 2 http://www.youtube.c...e&v=ZNcf5o9N3WA WR 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapsMoney Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 wow this is awesome!! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bardamu Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 Thanks for this very interessing report. It's always fascinating to see how it is built. It's also interesting to see the process in a luxury brand, with many automated operations, and to compare it with a more "manual" process. I've been in China, and had the opportunity to visit watch case factories. I'm sure you'll have fun comparing my pictures with the film shown above. Do you remember in the film the first step with the case ? That's what they call "case blank". Here are the operations that follows, and which were made by a robot in the film : And the final polishing : Maybe you'll think that in such a factory they are just doing rubish. If you think so, you're wrong ! These guys are not working in a high tech workshop, but they are great professionals. And you'd be suprised by the quality of finishing they are able to provide. Specially with polishing, which is the last operation and the most difficult one. I takes years to train a very good polisher. And if he makes a mistake, the case cannot be fixed and goes to the dustbin (which means that all previous operations - and the associated production cost - are lost). Case of your favourite rep comes probably from a factory which looks like this one. Hope you'll find it interesting. Paul 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolexman Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 Thanks for this very interessing report. It's always fascinating to see how it is built. It's also interesting to see the process in a luxury brand, with many automated operations, and to compare it with a more "manual" process. I've been in China, and had the opportunity to visit watch case factories. I'm sure you'll have fun comparing my pictures with the film shown above. Do you remember in the film the first step with the case ? That's what they call "case blank". Here are the operations that follows, and which were made by a robot in the film : And the final polishing : Maybe you'll think that in such a factory they are just doing rubish. If you think so, you're wrong ! These guys are not working in a high tech workshop, but they are great professionals. And you'd be suprised by the quality of finishing they are able to provide. Specially with polishing, which is the last operation and the most difficult one. I takes years to train a very good polisher. And if he makes a mistake, the case cannot be fixed and goes to the dustbin (which means that all previous operations - and the associated production cost - are lost). Case of your favourite rep comes probably from a factory which looks like this one. Hope you'll find it interesting. Paul Thanks for sharing Paul. Those are the real craftsman! There aren't even any watchmakers at Panerai as all the difficult stuff like oiling and hand setting is done by a machine. What a joke! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bardamu Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 Don't make confusion : these men are not watchmakers. They don't work on the movement, they just take care of the case. This is a job completely different from assembling a movement. And building dials is also something different. I visited dials makers, but was not allowed to take pictures. It's pity, because it's very spectacular. They start with a piece of brass, they cut it and little by little it begins to become a dial. Few other pictures of cases production : Here, workers are making holes in the cases for tubes and pushers. You can see dozens of cases in the boxes beside the case. As they have not yet been polished, they don't have special protection against scratch. Of course, after polishing cases will be stored in individual frame with foam to protect them. Here, another view of the polishing room. Only one man is working at this moment (left, below). Close up of the machine for polishing. As you can see, there is one central engine rotating, with brushes on each side. So two men can work side by side, or one single man using two different types of brushes. Note that they placed cartons to protect from projection of small pieces of metal. The incredible point (see picture in my first post above) is that the guys are not wearing protection glasses. Of course when you have workers, you have team leaders to check and control ! Other part of the factory : the assembly room. In this place everything is very clean to avoid dust. That's where workers will assemble movement, dial and hands inside the case, place the crown and close the case. Do you remember, in the Panerai film, it was explained that the hands were placed by a robot because it was such an accurate job, it cannot be done manualy ? Well... have you seen any of these robots in this room ? No robot of course, it's done manually ! That's probably the only difficult part in the assembly. If you don't place them exactly at the right position, hands will touch each other (or touch the dial, or touch the glass), and stop. Sorry, I have no picture of movements assembly (the real watchmakers in the process), because I had no occasion to visit such a factory. Hope you enjoyed the tour in the workshop. Only the smell is missing : hot oil, grease, and noise of the engines. In dials factories the smell is more painful, with paints, solvents and many chemical products. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 But I thought Swiss watches were made by gnomes and elves in a shack on a hill eating Swiss cheese not by a faceless machine. I want a Chinese watch that is still made by craftsmen Oh forgot I have a couple of them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bardamu Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 But I thought Swiss watches were made by gnomes and elves in a shack on a hill eating Swiss cheese not by a faceless machine. I want a Chinese watch that is still made by craftsmen Oh forgot I have a couple of them Oh Andy, you didn't read the news ? All gnomes and elves have left Swizerland. They received higher salaries from Santa Clauss, to help him for Christmas. And in their new job, they have to work only one month per year, so they refused to go back to Swizerland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 I'm pretty sure part of the reason for their severance was due to the attitude of some. Let's just say they weren't team players... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 I saw this in June, it's good. There are a few more episodes of how it's made on watches, I'll find the thread and post later. There is also a must see documentary called "the fake trade" we should really compile a list now that you tube has everything ever. Would be a great sticky. When my Internet is more reliable I will work on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrboombasteke Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 Very informative...thanks for sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5zcqgcZfOw&feature=youtube_gdata_player this is must watch. more to come Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Z Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 yes i really enjoyed this thread ...what bolloxs about u need machines to put hands on ... just away for cutting cost , and im sure they used machines in the 18th when they were making watches ...nice to see real skilled craftmenship .. regards if there reps or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bardamu Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 One comment about "fake trade". I took these pictures two years ago (even if they seem to be taken in the 50s), when I was working for a brand which produces quartz fashion watches. It was not fakes, but a real brand. So, this workshop is not something specific for production of reps.They work normally and officially for legal brands. Anyway, it's possible that they also produce rep. I didn't see it in the case factory, but it's impossible to identify a brand from a naked case (unless it is a very specific case). It's easier to check with dials, because they have the name on it. When I visited dials suppliers, of course I was shown the dials produced for the brand of my company. But I'm curious, and I use to have a look aroud me. And I also saw dials printed Cartier, or TAG, or other luxury brands. Conclusion : you can have a dial supplier, or a case supplier who has an official and legal business, and who also produces rep. Quite logical, finally... Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankt Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 Did anybody else notice how the canon pinion is recessed on that Panny..???...LOL...and we get all "jiggy" about our reps!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wraithride Posted December 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 one thing i was pretty amazed by was the amount of automation in the process. I always pictured these older european gentlemen hunched over a workbench grinding and filing away at parts to make them fit just so, going blind from looking through a loupe day after day. I feel like i peeked behind the curtain, or caught Santa Clause dropping off the toys... I'm glad you enjoyed the post WR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwatch Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 Two things I noticed. When testing water resistance, the crown levers were all open! Found that to be quite interesting. Also curious what kind of tension gauge they were using to measure the amount of force required to close the crown guard lever? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 1. Manual gear making occurs it's small 3 man shops that have 2 year waiting lists for 300,000/ watch. I'm still looking for those videos. I'll have something up by tonight. Even some of those machine the parts. 2. I haven't watched fake trade in a few Years But I thought one of the points was - and I know this is true. China doesn't have the same business ethics and respect for patent law so, the paradoxical thing about saving money by outsourcing to china is, they turn around and pirate your stuff. And, your kidding yourself if you think that if watchmaker A buys a gen and tears it down for a rep (let's assume it's true) that watchmaker B buy's A's watch and makes a copy from a copy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timj Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 Everybody should read Gomorra..... Then you truly understand the fake/gen bussiness of luxury brands.....:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_rymeister Posted December 31, 2011 Report Share Posted December 31, 2011 Thanks for the videos and the factory pictures guys great thread very interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bardamu Posted December 31, 2011 Report Share Posted December 31, 2011 Phoband, tanks for the film about fake industry. I really enjoyed the moment when they describe the Lo Wu market (around 6' 34" in the film). I've been there few times, and it's exactly like described. Hundreds of small shops selling clothes, shoes, bags, and watches of course. Locally, people call it "copy market". Reps everywhere, but mainly poor quality and very difficult to find very good ones. That's were I bought a Submariner for 200 RMB (around 28 or 30 $). Good quality for the price, and I really appreciate it. Quite good looking, and only +20 seconds per day. Now, I'm on RWG to find a real top quality ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted December 31, 2011 Report Share Posted December 31, 2011 Propper watch making http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltJyKCw8XKE Roger Smith basic watch $100k 2 zear waiting list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted December 31, 2011 Report Share Posted December 31, 2011 more here http://www.youtube.com/user/rwsmithwatches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmb Posted December 31, 2011 Report Share Posted December 31, 2011 Making a BP Tourby is kinda fun... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted December 31, 2011 Report Share Posted December 31, 2011 If you check the link in my sig, I put together more of the how it's made vids - from the past few years we have talked about on the forums. + some basil world and another fake trade documentary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted December 31, 2011 Report Share Posted December 31, 2011 Jmb ahh actually yeah, I had incorporated this one.. There was old thread on it since 2009. I'll add the few others now added to this thread. Keeps it nice and tidy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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