If you could spend $700 TC sub or.....

[RBT1680]

If you could spend $700 would you go for a TC sub or an "inspired by" watch like a ginault, OWC or a helson?

It seems as the homage watches are made in china anyway, but they do claim to have water resistance, so besides that is there any value to them? The reason one would go for an "inspired by" watch is because they like the GEN it is based off of.

So, in steps the TC sub, with all the criteria one would desire, but is it the better buy?

Looking forward to your replies.

[Watchmeister]

If I understand you correctly the question is whether you should buy a rep or a homage watch with a real but generic brand? I think the answer is as simple as do you want to wear a watch that says Rolex. The generic branded sub will most likely come with a warranty and be better assembled because of it.

[6now]

At $700, I'll buy the TC. At twice more, I'd save up for a gen.

[w.genzo]

At $700, I'll buy the TC. At twice more, I'd save up for a gen.

+1

[sgtguk]

Just bought the TC added a gen insert, couldn't be happier with it money well spent imho

[panerai153]

That's a tough question. like watchmeister said, do you want to wear a Rolex, or are you just as happy with a generic watch. There are some very, very nice generic homage watches out there for 700-1000 USD, and in reality, what you are buying with the TC is a 700 USD base watch. After you add a genuine insert/pearl, maybe a genuuine crystal,crown/tube, you are looking at a 1500 USD watch. For around that you can move up a notch and find a gently used Omega or a new Tag, etc.

Another consideraton of a genuine, you are going to get a warranty for some period of time, and if you have a problem, i have found that the small shops will bend over backwards to fix your problem. All of these watches are assembled in Switzerland, inspected upon arrival in the USA, and if there are any problems, they don't get shipped until fixed. I love reps, so don't get me wrong, I just thought a view from the other side would be helpful.

Homage watches in that price range, here are 3 of mine

1. MKII homage to the 6538 "bond" Rolex"

2. MKII Stingray homage to the Blancpain Fifty Fathoms

3. Ocean7 LM-7 homage to the Omega Ploprof

[tode1640]

Really, you can't generalise - it is whatever makes you happy. A TC is likely to look nicer than most homage watches (although many are very nice, they don't quite have the beauty of the Rolex design - it isn't all about the label). However, a TC will be less reliable than a homage watch from a respectable company that comes with after sales service and a warranty. But ultimately, they are both watches - so which do you prefer. It is like asking the question - should you buy one gen or twenty reps, there is no right answer - it is down to what will bring you the most pleasure.

[Mapman57]

Wow Panerai153 - I love your homages......................I will be checking out those MKii's especially.

[Stephane]

At $700, I'll buy the TC. At twice more, I'd save up for a gen.

+2

[lhooq]

Wow Panerai153 - I love your homages......................I will be checking out those MKii's especially.

I particularly like the Mk II Vantage, which resembles a 39mm 1016. If money were irrelevant and I could only get one (and if I were King of Arbitrary World), I would choose one over a 214270.

For Fifty Fathoms homages, I favor the Helson Skindiver.

[panerai153]

I particularly like the Mk II Vantage, which resembles a 39mm 1016. If money were irrelevant and I could only get one (and if I were King of Arbitrary World), I would choose one over a 214270.

For Fifty Fathoms homages, I favor the Helson Skindiver.

You need to look at the MKII Tornek Rayville. Bill Yao bought all the TR rights, including the name. He produced a very limited edition of 15 Tornek Rayville T-1000's. Rumor is there will be more in the future. If you like the old Blancpains, this one is really,really close.

[TeeJay]

For me, and my thoughts alone... Seven hundred clams would buy me a lot of budget reps I'm not a fan of homage watches as, as much as a watch might look nice, IMHO re-branding someone else's design is just tacky and unimaginative. Sure, reps are fake, they are equally making a buck off a genuine company's IP, but, reps are being made to reflect all aspects of said watch, they are 'a forgery', for want of a better term, rather than say photocopying the Mona Lisa and then drawing a moustache and glasses on it and claiming it as your own work

[janeto72]

i've tested 3 different TC SUBS to 10 ATM. I couldn't go anymore becuase the the pressure unit didn't read past 10 bars.....

[sgtguk]

I think we all know homage watches when we see them, some are really good takes on the original design, some not so good for near to the same money as a decent quality rep I bought one of these

Fantastic quality for the money and 2 year warranty to boot still cost less than my TC build.That MKII Stingray looks bloody nice too all I'm saying is that Homage watches have their slot in the market place and are in most ways better value than their rep counterparts.

[RBT1680]

Thanks to all I really appreciate the input. I do find myself really fond of the Helson Skin Diver and my end up with one eventually it seems to be the only fifty fathoms look alike still readily available. But the funniest thing is that I am worried about the Homage watches being of "lesser" quality than the TC or other super reps.

Because If you are trying reall, really hard to make a rep watch look, feel and work like a $6000 watch would it not be of better quality just by default?

[tode1640]

But the funniest thing is that I am worried about the Homage watches being of "lesser" quality than the TC or other super reps.

Because If you are trying reall, really hard to make a rep watch look, feel and work like a $6000 watch would it not be of better quality just by default?

It depends what you mean by "quality". If you simply mean build quality - the quality of materials used, the precision of the engineering, and consistency of the finished product - then it is conceivable that some super reps could be better than some homages. A TC sub will never be able to come close to the quality of a gen, simply neither the Chinese factories nor TC have the resources of Rolex. I also very much doubt that they could come close to the quality of a homage produced by a large corporation like Seiko. They may well cut corners on the precision and the materials to produce a low cost product, but they are a large enough organisation to have good QA and a very high standard of consistency. In the case of small homage companies such as MKII, then there is a better chance that a TC might equal or exceed them - their resources are going to be far closer to those of a Chinese rep factory. I fact, I believe that some small watch makers outsource their manufacture to China - so they might even be made in the same factories as reps! I have never handled a TC, but most people who have seem to love them, so I don't doubt that the build quality is superb. However, there are interesting stories about fitting gen inserts - sometimes they seem to fit flawlessly, but sometimes they need to be sanded. This speaks volumes about the consistency - there are obviously subtle differences between individual watches. This would never happen with a large homage manufacturer.

However, if by "quality" you mean the overall quality of the experience of buying a watch then no rep can ever compete with a homage. The very fact that homage watches are made by completely legal and above board companies means that you have assurance of help if something goes wrong. You will have a legally enforceable warranty and, certainly in the case of big companies, very good after sales service. With reps, you can never even be sure exactly who made it. Because what they are doing is illegal, the factories don't publish their addresses and, in all probability, even the dealers don't know exactly who they are. If you buy a watch from TC, all that you will have is the assurance that he has the reputation of being a very decent guy and will probably help you out if things go wrong. That may count for a lot, but it is a long way short of the sort of after sales service that you will get from a company like Seiko.

Ultimately, though, you pay your money and take your choice. Whatever gives you the most satisfaction.

[PAM1962]

Just bought the TC added a gen insert, couldn't be happier with it money well spent imho

What is the TC sub? Sorry for the newbie question...... PAM1962

[panerai153]

" In the case of small homage companies such as MKII, then there is a better chance that a TC might equal or exceed them - their resources are going to be far closer to those of a Chinese rep factory. I fact, I believe that some small watch makers outsource their manufacture to China - so they might even be made in the same factories as reps!"

I don't think the QC of any of the rep factories approach that of watch companies like MKII ,Ocean 7 or a lot of the smaller shops. First off Bill Yao not only inspects every watch he gets back from Switzerland, and by the way, to have the Swiss on the dial, they do have to comply with the Swiss watch industry rules. When MKII was shipping the Kingston's, there were a lot of unhappy folks, primarily because it was taking so long to get the watches out. Every watch went through the same meticulous process, every watch was pressure tested using a "Dry" tester to the stated depth on the dial, and every watch was tested in 3 positions for accuracy.

There may well be some smaller watch companies that are using parts from China, but even at that they have much better QC. The biggest difference is what you posted in your post above. The Chinese reps are made by unknown folks in unknown factories. you have very little recourse should something go wrong. Any branded watch is going to have a warranty, a contact source and someone who can take care of your problems should one arise, not necressarily so with reps, and if you don't believe it, read some of the myriad of problem posts on the various forums, written by people who got a broken watch, parts missing, screws stripped, etc. Quite often they were less than satisfied with hte customer service offerd by the dealer.

Don't get me wrong, problems happen with the best. I remember a story several years ago on the Omega forum on WUS. a felow went into an Omega AD bought a brand new Omega, wore it home, and the watch stopped less than 24 hours after purchase. the fellow goes back to the AD a couple of days later, shows the watch to the sales person who asked him if he had dropped the watch? No, started acting funny a few hours after I got home, took it off and haven't put it on since. Salesman got their watchmaker to take a look, removed the caseback, couldn't see anything wrong from just a cursory exam, told the customer "we'll have to send your watch back to Bienne, have one of the factory watchmakers have look at it. How long the customer asked? Oh, probably about 3-4 months!! Customer told the manager he wanted a replacement watch or his money back. manager told him, that would be impossible as it's now a used watch. Horror story, you bet. That guy would never buy another Omega, or deal with that store, and you can bet the story got told a thousand times. So bad things can happen with the best and the worst. That horror story aside, I do think you will stand a better chance of getting good customer service from one of the branded watches.

Just for comparison, here is a little pictorial "Prebuilt, what the Hell takes so long" it shows the steps that a MKII Kingston goes through from the bare case to a watch ready to ship.

http://www.mkiiwatches.com/2011/11/pre-built-watches-aka-what-the-hll-takes-so-long/

I have had really good luck with my reps, by and large. However I usually factor in a movement service as part of the price if it's a watch i plan to keep for any length of time. a good watchmaker can head off a lot of potential problems with a thorough inspection and service.

[tode1640]

" In the case of small homage companies such as MKII, then there is a better chance that a TC might equal or exceed them - their resources are going to be far closer to those of a Chinese rep factory. I fact, I believe that some small watch makers outsource their manufacture to China - so they might even be made in the same factories as reps!"

I don't think the QC of any of the rep factories approach that of watch companies like MKII ,Ocean 7 or a lot of the smaller shops.

I said "closer to", not identical. The point that I was making was that small Homage companies, like Chinese rep factories, don't have the resources of a huge corporation like Rolex or even Seiko. I don't doubt that they are made by outstanding craftsman with excellent quality control - but the very best Chinese factories can be pretty good too (and I believe that TC personally inspects and tests every watch he ships out).

The biggest difference is what you posted in your post above. The Chinese reps are made by unknown folks in unknown factories. you have very little recourse should something go wrong.

Yes, of course, that is the key difference. The very best reps might come close to some of the great homage watches in terms of the actual physical item. I say might, I'm not saying that they do! However, they will never come close to the after sales support offered by even the tiniest legitimate company - simply because that company is legitimate. If you buy a rep from an illegal dealer, then you don't even have the most basic statutory rights.

Edited July 6, 2012 by tode1640

[tode1640]

What is the TC sub? Sorry for the newbie question...... PAM1962

A replica Rolex Submariner obtained from TC - an amateur/semi-pro watchsmith/importer and Rolex enthusiast. His subs are widely regarded as the best rep subs available out of the box today.

[tode1640]

Customer told the manager he wanted a replacement watch or his money back. manager told him, that would be impossible as it's now a used watch. Horror story, you bet.

Hmm... that, to me, sounds like a dodgy dealer trying it on. In almost all countries there is consumer protection legislation that gives customers rights to a refund if goods aren't of merchantable quality. This is over and above any obligations of the warranty - it is a fundamental legal right.

[TeeJay]

Hmm... that, to me, sounds like a dodgy dealer trying it on. In almost all countries there is consumer protection legislation that gives customers rights to a refund if goods aren't of merchantable quality. This is over and above any obligations of the warranty - it is a fundamental legal right.

+1 If the watch stopped so soon (for whatever reason) it's simply 'not fit for purpose', and that magic phrase is why the guy should've been given a replacement on the spot.

[phillycheez]

Actually the build quality of Ginault is up there with the best of them. I love it... It's actually survived my constant watch flipping for a year now. I already have plans for it, replace crystal with big crowns (AR Cyclops) and get my family crest printed on the dial. It's actually turning out to be the one ill be passing down to the kids (that don't exist). I own a gen 5513 too but oddly the Ginault means more to me in the end. :/

I got it in the very beginning, cost me around $500 when they had a promo deal going. I was able to grab one of the handful of swiss ETAs too. Case back has engraved made in the USA by the way.

Edited July 6, 2012 by phillycheez

[panerai153]

+1 If the watch stopped so soon (for whatever reason) it's simply 'not fit for purpose', and that magic phrase is why the guy should've been given a replacement on the spot.

All I know is what I read on the Omega Forum on WUS. This has been probably about 8-10 years ago.There are some pretty snooty, basically A**hole AD's out there. I would imagine the buyer ended up with a replacement watch, but he would have to threaten to sue the store and the manager. Certainly not the right way to do things. With stories like this, you never know the whole deal, the guy could have come in waving the watch in the air screaming at the sales person demanding a new watch on the spot.There are usually at least two sides to every deal, and we only got one side.

[bpolo]

Why are people quoting TC Subs for $700?

They are listed for $510 without insert.. A bit more with shaved engravings..

That said, they are worth it! Mine kept -1 to 2 seconds a day. The best of.cosc standards!