An exercise in futility

[davylloyd]

Around the 15^th. August, I ordered the PAM320 and Breitling Avenger that Tony had in his crazy sale.

Since the 21^st. the order has been at U.K. customs without any updates, letters or phone calls, and then the status updated at 11.14 today, on the EMS website to ‘Released from Customs’ and the Parcelfarce website to ‘Released for UK processing’ and ‘Expected delivery date 14/09/12’.

Being the UK Customs and EMS/Parcelfarce, this of course means all bets are still on, ie. I could get 1) nothing at all, or 2) either of the two watches, or 3) both watches (extremely unlikely).

The whole episode has given me time to realise what a farce, a complete exercise in futility, this whole episode has been. Not because of Tony’s conduct, because this has been nothing short of perfect – his communication and assurances have been excellent, but because the rest of it has been such a monumental waste of time, effort and money.

On another forum, it’s been suggested that a company called TM Eye have been acting on behalf of Richemont SA to protect their intellectual property, their trademarks and so forth, and that this is what has made it difficult at UK Customs with Panerai. No doubt there are other companies doing the same work for Breitling SA and all the other luxury brands.

If one or both of my watches had been road-rollered into the tarmac, would I have run off to an AD to order the Gen?. Not a chance!

Does their behaviour make me more liable to want to own one of their watches? No!

Would the Border Agency be better employed in preventing the entry of illegal immigrants, class A drugs, and fake medicines? Yes!

It may well be that I can’t see the trees for the forest here, but as far as I can tell, when a replica watch is destroyed, it doesn’t benefit the vendor, the buyer, or the UK economy. Companies like TM Eye make a lot of money from the luxury brands they represent, without actually raising the profile of the luxury brand. Perhaps the luxury brands would do better to save the money they pay to these reptiles, and discount their products instead?

What do you say?

Edited September 13, 2012 by davylloyd

[FxrAndy]

If they were cheeper then they would not be a luxury

but i feel your pain, waiting for a parcel is hard work

[surlysurdi]

Hi Davy,

I happen to agree with you. Although reps are an infringement of copyright I think our security and customs personnel would be far better employed focusing on the things you have mentioned. I personally just got my first rep and I'm delighted! I really couldn't care for TM Eye and the like, they want to protect their represented brands? Fine. But it won't stop me buying what I want from where I want any time I want.

[davylloyd]

If they were cheeper then they would not be a luxury

but i feel your pain, waiting for a parcel is hard work

I know where you are coming from Andy, but I don't mean they should be cheap. We all know Rolex, for example, make excellent watches, but they are now verging on mass production, and the movements and cases and bracelets on a lot of their models have not incurred any R&D costs in a long long time.

I personally find it hard to see how a Submariner is worth twenty or thirty times the cost of a good quality rep.

Still, having never owned one myself, I know owners of the gens. will want to put me right.

Edited September 13, 2012 by davylloyd

[TeeJay]

What can I say? The country's fucked, and- No, actually, I think that pretty much explains everything

If Rolex is so concerned about counterfeiting and their fiction of 'lost customers', they should just release a China Made range priced as per the Chinese made clones/reps, and there'd be enough uptake on sales to make up for any loss ( ) of sales on the Swiss Made line

[freddy333]

Since the 21^st. the order has been at U.K. customs without any updates, letters or phone calls, and then the status updated at 11.14 today, on the EMS website to ‘Released from Customs’ and the Parcelfarce website to ‘Released for UK processing’ and ‘Expected delivery date 14/09/12’.

Me thinks you protestith too much.

If there was a problem, in lieu of an 'Expected delivery date', you would likely be contacted by customs or the Border Agency. You just need to be patient & let the system do its thing.

[freddy333]

We all know Rolex, for example, make excellent watches, but they are now verging on mass production, and the movements and cases and bracelets on a lot of their models have not incurred any R&D costs in a long long time.

Wrong. Read about the research/engineering that went into development of the parachrom hairspring, ceramic bezel or any of Rolex's recent innovations. You should know, too, that most of the functions/features that make the modern wristwatch what it is today, were either developed or 1st implemented in a major way by Rolex. Contrary to popular opinion, Rolex is constantly researching new ways to make a watch better, more accurate or more reliable & that costs alot of money. And that does not even take into account all of the charities that Rolex has (often quietly) supported over the years.

[TeeJay]

Wrong. Read about the research/engineering that went into development of the parachrom hairspring, ceramic bezel or any of Rolex's recent innovations. You should know, too, that most of the functions/features that make the modern wristwatch what it is today, were either developed or 1st implemented in a major way by Rolex. Contrary to popular opinion, Rolex is constantly researching new ways to make a watch better, more accurate or more reliable & that costs alot of money. And that does not even take into account all of the charities that Rolex has (often quietly) supported over the years.

While this is true, I still don't think that it entirely justifies some of the high prices (excluding precious metal builds, of course) And of course, this reinforces my idea about the China Made line. Some people (ie many rep buyers) couldn't care less if the hairspring is anti-magnetic*, or if the bezel insert is truly solid cerachrome or just a plated version, and this is the market, he supposed 'lost sales', which I feel would be recouped by a China Made line. Equally, that wouldn't devalue the Swiss Made line, simply because the Swiss Made would be providing those more specialist parts

*certainly a useful feature for a tattoo artist, and they (some of the 'well known artists') are often watch enthusiasts (with the funds to buy the gens) but whether they are aware of said parachrome spring is another matter

[FxrAndy]

I know where you are coming from Andy, but I don't mean they should be cheap. We all know Rolex, for example, make excellent watches, but they are now verging on mass production, and the movements and cases and bracelets on a lot of their models have not incurred any R&D costs in a long long time.

I personally find it hard to see how a Submariner is worth twenty or thirty times the cost of a good quality rep.

Still, having never owned one myself, I know owners of the gens. will want to put me right.

Your not buying the watch though you are buying the name, are levi's better made than a no name pair of jeans? may be just a little but not to the price difference but people wear levi's for the name

[davylloyd]

Your not buying the watch though you are buying the name, are levi's better made than a no name pair of jeans? may be just a little but not to the price difference but people wear levi's for the name

But the name's on the rep.

[davylloyd]

Me thinks you protestith too much.

If there was a problem, in lieu of an 'Expected delivery date', you would likely be contacted by customs or the Border Agency. You just need to be patient & let the system do its thing.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I do expect something will now turn up, I just meant that the delay gave me time to think over how absurd the whole customs/IP infringement/agent thing is.

[freddy333]

While this is true, I still don't think that it entirely justifies some of the high prices (excluding precious metal builds, of course)

Certainly, value is in the eye of the beholder & I agree that Rolex as well as most other iconic brand vendors do make excessively large profits. However, it is difficult to put a value on branding (after all, it took nearly 100 years & alot of effort/money for Rolex to make the Rolex name the icon it is today), so who is to say whether the prices charged for Rolex are reasonable in the vast scheme of things?

Some people (ie many rep buyers) couldn't care less if the hairspring is anti-magnetic*, or if the bezel insert is truly solid cerachrome or just a plated version

The owner who has to pay to get his watch demagnetized or his (scratched) bezel replaced probably does care, even if he is blissfully unaware of the engineering & technology that Rolex put into the advances that allow him to avoid these types of problems that plague Asian-made copies. And, again, whether that is worth the price differential is up to you.

[TeeJay]

Certainly, value is in the eye of the beholder & I agree that Rolex as well as most other iconic brand vendors do make excessively large profits. However, it is difficult to put a value on branding (after all, it took nearly 100 years & alot of effort/money for Rolex to make the Rolex name the icon it is today), so who is to say whether the prices charged for Rolex are reasonable in the vast scheme of things?

I do see your point, I simply feel that it's time someone turned round to Rolex as a company, and simply told them to stop whining about infringement issues (albeit legitimate) as they were the ones who not only created the demand for their product, but decided to outsource to a country notorious for its replica industry ( ) for no reason other than greed... For all their complaints that counterfeiting takes their sales, I simply do not believe that. I believe that the majority of rep buyers (world-wide, people on vacation etc, not simply community members) simply would not buy the genuine item (for many different reasons) so they cannot be considered 'lost sales'. So when the rep makers come along offering a (nearly) visually identical product for a fraction of the price, it's not hard to realize why people would go for that alternative, even though it seems beyond the folks at Rolex to work that out If Rolex want to not only recover those sales, but actually win them in the first place (as they never really had them to begin with) and at the same time deal a blow to the rep industry, they should release a China Made line, and stand behind it proudly as a product. IMHO, such a two-tiered marketing strategy would allow Rolex to continue to cater to the higher end of the market with a Swiss Made line with all the technological bells and whistles, with no devaluation in product, but additionally cater to the low end of the market, which they seem to consider lost sales, yet make no attempt to actually engage with... I say there would be no devaluation of the product, because there would be the distinction between the two lines, and a genuine and demonstrable difference between the two products. That would be truly allowing the customer to decide if the Rolex Price Tag is really worth it, as it would be giving the financial freedom of choosing between rep and gen prices, but in a 100% official and licensed manner, where all the money from either line would still wind up in the same account... Of course, there would still be the rep factories, but with a genuine product available at a rep price, there would be no incentive for customers to use them anymore (other than as vacation novelties)... Equally, there would still be the franken builders who want to put Swiss parts in a China base, again, getting the Full Look, at less than full price... Of course, all purely hypothetical, but it just makes so much sense to me, I simply don't see what prevents Rolex from taking such a move (other than stubborn pride)

The owner who has to pay to get his watch demagnetized or his (scratched) bezel replaced probably does care, even if he is blissfully unaware of the engineering & technology that Rolex put into the advances that allow him to avoid these types of problems that plague Asian-made copies. And, again, whether that is worth the price differential is up to you.

Of course, if those issues occur and the owner needs to have their watch serviced, then yes, they would indeed become more aware of what's going on 'under the hood', but what I was meaning, would be say to actually make the anti-magnetic springs more of a selling point specifically for people who operate in high magnetic fields, as with the Milgaus line, thus making it a conscious choice on the part of the buyer to choose a watch with that option because it suits their needs. Rather than it being an evolution in movement technology which gets rolled out in a model update, such as from the 16610 - Ceramic Submariner, and someone simply 'having to pay for it', because they've walked into an AD and been shown the latest model, they would be able to say they need a watch to be anti-magnetic (or not) and thus purchase what is best for their personal needs as a consumer, if that makes any sense?

[freddy333]

Of course, if those issues occur and the owner needs to have their watch serviced, then yes, they would indeed become more aware of what's going on 'under the hood', but what I was meaning, would be say to actually make the anti-magnetic springs more of a selling point specifically for people who operate in high magnetic fields, as with the Milgaus line, thus making it a conscious choice on the part of the buyer to choose a watch with that option because it suits their needs. Rather than it being an evolution in movement technology which gets rolled out in a model update, such as from the 16610 - Ceramic Submariner, and someone simply 'having to pay for it', because they've walked into an AD and been shown the latest model, they would be able to say they need a watch to be anti-magnetic (or not) and thus purchase what is best for their personal needs as a consumer, if that makes any sense?

Are you aware that watches become magnetized by everyday items like stereo speakers, drills, tvs & just about anything that has an electric motor? You would be surprised at how easily watches can become magnetized & how often owners pay hundreds of dollars to have their watch repaired when it is just magnetized. The point is that it is not just those who work around high magnetic fields who benefit from parachrom hair springs (& the same can be said for most of Rolex's other innovations). Just sayin..................

[freddy333]

I do see your point, I simply feel that it's time someone turned round to Rolex as a company, and simply told them to stop whining about infringement issues (albeit legitimate) as they were the ones who not only created the demand for their product, but decided to outsource to a country notorious for its replica industry ( ) for no reason other than greed...

TeeJay, you are too intelligent to fall for that 'Rolex deserves to have their trademarks & patents stolen because they are a greedy multi-national company'.

Since when have we become so Obama-nized to believe that running a business for profit is akin to clubbing baby seals or stealing money from the church? Rolex, like any other successful company, must be in Asia if they want to compete in the global marketplace. In fact, Rolex (along with Apple) spent a decade or so marketing their products in China long before the majority of Chinese citizens were even allowed to buy them. Somewhere in my gigabytes of picture archives, I have photos of a Rolex Daytona poster in Tienanmen Square from the late 1970s (or early 1980s) & I remember thinking that Rolex is going to sack their entire international marketing team when they get the bill for that waste of money. But, as it turned out, it was a brilliant move because those marketing guys did their homework & were 1 of the 1st western companies to see the writing on the Great Wall (that is, China's future), probably even before the Chinese saw it. Once free enterprise took hold in China & people began to amass a bit of extra cash to spend on luxury good, guess what name these nouveau riche immediately thought of? Rolex, of course. And it was not by accident. It was a gamble that cost Rolex alot of money, but it was a gamble that paid off. So why should they be chastised for throwing the dice & (because they did their homework) profiting from a clever investment? Just sayin (again)..............

[Mike on a bike]

Just glad USA customs are not that tight. (as for the debate I will decline comment)

[FxrAndy]

But the name's on the rep.

but it is a rep,

[Logan]

The brands are hurting so I guess they think cracking down on reps will increase sales. They are probably right to a limited and short term degree, but I've always felt that reps do increase the desirability of a brand.

Like the old saying "the only thing worse that being talked about.. is not being talked about". If your designs are not being copied then it means no body cares.

[davylloyd]

The brands are hurting so I guess they think cracking down on reps will increase sales. They are probably right to a limited and short term degree, but I've always felt that reps do increase the desirability of a brand.

Like the old saying "the only thing worse that being talked about.. is not being talked about". If your designs are not being copied then it means no body cares.

Spot on.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

[panerai153]

Spot on.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

We may believe that, but most assuredly, the luxury brands do not. I believe that what they contend are lost sales are not because of what we have discussed here,but what the luxury brands call "brand dilution". Here is what they think.And not wanting to sound like a snob, but exactly what i'm describing happened to me. Many years ago, i saved up my pennies, and bought myself a brand new 18k Rolex Day/Date. The price then was about 5k which was a ton of money for a watch. I really didn't know anything about reps, this was before the internet, and all I saw were a few replicas advertised in the back of magazines. i went out of town to buy a vehicle a few months after buying the watch. When i sat down with the sales manager and salesman to work out the purchase details, I noticed that both of them had Rolex "Presidents" very similar to mine on their wrists. Only difference the second hands were jumping, obviously quartz movements. i realized that these were fake, but to the average person they were a Rolex.After that, I saw more and more quartz reps, and after a while, i decided that why have the real thing that I saved for for months, when anybody could pick up a rep for 100 bucks. i sold my Day/Date, and for quite a few years, I didn't own another Rolex, I bought watches from other brands, but that experience soured me on Rolex watches for quite a while. Later on (years later!), I began to see really nice reps on the rep forums, and I decided at that point that maybe my attitude at the time was wrong, I suppose I was bitter about the fact that I worked really ,really hard to save up the money for the real thing and folks who bought the reps were buying them with their "play around" money. I truly believe that the attitude I had way back then is still very prevalent today.There are lots of folks who will not wear a brand of watch, shoes, purse, etc. that is repped to the point that everyone can afford them.Wealthy women, aren't going to rush out to buy a LV bag just because they like the rep that their maid is carrying. That's the reason Rolex and others hate reps, and also why Rolex will never have a Chinese made Rolex branded watch at a lower price point.

[tomhorn]

If Rolex want to not only recover those sales, but actually win them in the first place (as they never really had them to begin with) and at the same time deal a blow to the rep industry, they should release a China Made line, and stand behind it proudly as a product. IMHO, such a two-tiered marketing strategy would allow Rolex to continue to cater to the higher end of the market with a Swiss Made line with all the technological bells and whistles, with no devaluation in product, but additionally cater to the low end of the market, which they seem to consider lost sales, yet make no attempt to actually engage with... I say there would be no devaluation of the product, because there would be the distinction between the two lines, and a genuine and demonstrable difference between the two products. That would be truly allowing the customer to decide if the Rolex Price Tag is really worth it, as it would be giving the financial freedom of choosing between rep and gen prices, but in a 100% official and licensed manner, where all the money from either line would still wind up in the same account...

Couldn't disagree more. Luxury brands are luxury brands for a reason. They have been designed, built, marketed and priced to be that way. If Rolex came out with a Chinese made (and appropriately priced) line, it would absolutely de-value the brand. Exclusivity is the hallmark of a luxury brand. If anyone can afford one, you lose that.

There is actually no reason Rolex couldn't sell a Submariner right now for $1,000, and they'd sell millions. They don't because they know it would kill their brand.

Failure happens all the time with perceived high end companies trying to move down market (anyone remember the Cadillac Catera?). The masses who buy gen Rolex's do so precisely because they are perceived to have been built well, are expensive, and not everyone will have one.

The smarter companies come out with an different branded product (for example, Tudor) when they want to try to go down or up markets. That way if it fails, the original mark isn't affected.

By the way, it also doesn't work moving up-market. Toyota, Honda and Nissan were smart in this regard, others, not so much. By all accounts, the Hyundai Equus is supposed to be a magnificent automobile, but most buyers of a $60k car don't want a Hyundai badge on the back. Same with the VW Phaeton ... a $70k VW. What were they thinking? Most recently, even though they made one good move with Infiniti, Nissan made a huge (IMO) mistake branding the GT-R a Nissan and not an Infiniti. On the watch side of things, look at the Grand Seiko line ... I would doubt that outside the Asian market they sell all that well despite being very well made and innovative timepieces. Who wants to spend $5k+ for a simple 3-hand automatic with Seiko on the dial?

Oh, and well said panerai153. Agree 100%. It's also why it took me so long to come back around to Rolex.

[davylloyd]

So......

This morning, both watches (and 2 x Montblanc pens) turned up, in a package that has definitely not been opened, and may or may not have been x-rayed. It sat in UK customs for 23 days.

Here's a screen grab of the Parcelfarce tracking -

I realise I'm a creature of severely limited intellect, so if someone could explain in simple terms, using words of no more than two syllables, what earthly purpose this has served, I'd be eternally grateful.

[freddy333]

The smarter companies come out with an different branded product (for example, Tudor) when they want to try to go down or up markets. That way if it fails, the original mark isn't affected.

Excellent point. Remember Datsun? Nissan used that name on its early export cars because it was worried that they would not be accepted internationally, which would reflect badly on the parent company, Nissan. So they created the automotive equivalent of Tudor - Datsun. After Datsuns became very successful, especially in the all-too-important US market, they began to blur the lines with (often confusing) double-branding

Ultimately, Nissan was only too happy to lose the Datsun name & fold the line back into the parent (Nissan) company.

This morning, both watches (and 2 x Montblanc pens) turned up, in a package that has definitely not been opened, and may or may not have been x-rayed. It sat in UK customs for 23 days.

I realise I'm a creature of severely limited intellect, so if someone could explain in simple terms, using words of no more than two syllables, what earthly purpose this has served, I'd be eternally grateful.

Governments are full of bureaucrats, who spend most of the productive time being anything but productive. This is 1 of the reasons RWG's forums are chock full of threads like this. Again, if there is problem, you will hear from the government. Otherwise, you just have to be patient & let the process - however slow it may be - play out.

[dropbear2008]

Amen to that. My wife hasn't used any of her gen LV bags in years because every punk has them (real or rep). Unfortunately she does not let me sell them either

On another note it seems the LV quality has declined to a degree where it really becomes hard to distinguish from a good replica.

Edited September 14, 2012 by dropbear2008

[TeeJay]

Couldn't disagree more. Luxury brands are luxury brands for a reason. They have been designed, built, marketed and priced to be that way.

Yes and no. Luxury brands are luxury brands because for the most part people are idiots and live their lives by what others (Marketing gurus) tell them to think/like/wear. Rolex are now a luxury brand, but historically, they were not, they were functional tool watches, not the functional jewelry that they are now. Rolex sold out. There's no denying their success, but that doesn't stop them as a company, from being sell-outs...

If Rolex came out with a Chinese made (and appropriately priced) line, it would absolutely de-value the brand. Exclusivity is the hallmark of a luxury brand. If anyone can afford one, you lose that.

How would it de-value the brand if they are still selling a high-priced Swiss Made line? Not everyone would be able to afford them, just as now, so there would be no devaluation. The only difference, is that there would also be an honestly priced affordable version... People would have a choice in which they buy, rather than being forced to either 'go gen, go rep or go without'. The distinction between the Swiss Made and China Made dial print would keep the gen snobs happy, as they would feel they were still keeping their exclusivity, and as all the profits from both revenue streams would still be going in Rolex's coffers, as a company, they wouldn't be losing out in any way at all

There is actually no reason Rolex couldn't sell a Submariner right now for $1,000, and they'd sell millions. They don't because they know it would kill their brand.

How would lowering the price kill the brand? Don't confuse Branding and Consumerism, with a company's product performance... Alpha Watch can sell a clone sub for about $80. If Rolex were to take advantage of their Chinese manufacturers and sell an equally priced product (ie everything which is in a 21j Budget rep, but 100% Official) then equally, they would sell millions. I daresay they would make more from those sales, as the amounts involve would rapidly accumulate (because of the strength of Rolex's reputation for a quality product) and then the sales from the high end Swiss Made line with the parachrome hairsprings etc, would then be purchased by those who actually need and appreciate that additional feature, thus providing even more income

Failure happens all the time with perceived high end companies trying to move down market (anyone remember the Cadillac Catera?). The masses who buy gen Rolex's do so precisely because they are perceived to have been built well, are expensive, and not everyone will have one.

The smarter companies come out with an different branded product (for example, Tudor) when they want to try to go down or up markets. That way if it fails, the original mark isn't affected.

By the way, it also doesn't work moving up-market. Toyota, Honda and Nissan were smart in this regard, others, not so much. By all accounts, the Hyundai Equus is supposed to be a magnificent automobile, but most buyers of a $60k car don't want a Hyundai badge on the back. Same with the VW Phaeton ... a $70k VW. What were they thinking? Most recently, even though they made one good move with Infiniti, Nissan made a huge (IMO) mistake branding the GT-R a Nissan and not an Infiniti. On the watch side of things, look at the Grand Seiko line ... I would doubt that outside the Asian market they sell all that well despite being very well made and innovative timepieces. Who wants to spend $5k+ for a simple 3-hand automatic with Seiko on the dial?

I think the alternate branding is a perfectly valid way to go, and indeed, that does protect the identity of the prime brand, but, not everyone is aware of those alternate lines. Not everyone knows that a Tudor is a budget Rolex, or that a Lexus is a High End Toyota That is why I'm suggesting that the difference in the lines be down to Chinese Made/Swiss Made dial text and interior construction variation, because that way, someone on a lower rung of the financial ladder can still 'buy a Rolex' without having to sell a kidney to buy something over-priced 'just for the privilege', and someone on a higher rung can still feel like a Big Man by spending the higher price, and actually getting something different for their money to justify said price point. As before, I think the two lines would compliment each other, and would only be a financial success, as the increased sales would mean increased profit, while having the additional bonus of making a genuine impact on counterfeiting, by removing the demand which allows them to supply... Not that I have an issue with counterfeiting, but as before, if Rolex wants to actually make a difference, rather than just acting like a whiny spoiled brat company, they need to actually engage with that demographic and make steps to actually convert those into buyers, rather than just being litigious, which does nothing to actually reduce the demand...