fraggle42 Posted August 17, 2013 Report Share Posted August 17, 2013 Bloody things. Just pulled the back off to see if the display back would fit. Which needed a different ring, so had to remove the crown & stem. Of course ring didn't fit & display back too shallow & stopped auto winder rotating. And keyless works went wrong putting stem back in. And my hand remover is totally useless with Omega PO hands. Second hand trashed and other two marked. And after reassembling the KW the date doesn't change. I hate it. I hate them all! Damned lucky I didn't make final calibrations with a sledgehammer. So. That's a new set of gen hands, wait for the TC 2824 to arrive and send the lot off to get sorted by someone who knows what they're doing. Anyone wanna buy some watch tinkering tools? I've no doubt when not in my hands they'll work just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astonjenks Posted August 17, 2013 Report Share Posted August 17, 2013 Fraggle, I know that one for sure! Regards AJ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poker Posted August 17, 2013 Report Share Posted August 17, 2013 People hated the keyless works even 100 years ago. Check out "The Keyless Mechanism - A Practical Treatise on its Design and Repair" where the author complains about how a lot of keyless mechanisms suck. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtguk Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 feel ya pain mate 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geof3 Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 Yep... Suck. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSTEEL Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 All part of the learning curve mate. You will get to learn how to fix it too in time, there's loads of great help files, and threads here on fixing it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraggle42 Posted August 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 Thanks all. I can dismantle the KW and put it back together again but forgot to check it was all back together properly before putting dial & hands back on. Doh. Plus I really need a decent hand remover tool, the one I've got sucks, and then do lots of practise on old dead watches Double Plus I think one of those microscopes would make life a hell of a lot easier, almost 50 and my eyes just don't work as well as they used too. What I think I'll do is take a dead movement + dial + hands, take all decorations off the dial, sand it back, paint white enamel, bake that hard, then paint with black emulsion. That will scratch very easily and show me how good / bad I am, and the black emulsion is easy to repaint for another practise. Anyone got such a dead movement with dial + matching hands they could donate? Movement can be just enough to hold the hands and dial, don't care about escapement, main spring, etc. Dial can be as tatty as can be but not bent. A basic 3 hands will be good until I get reasonable at changing those hands, then I'll try the same thing with the small 7750 hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 I feel your pain, but we have all been there many times. The best way to learn is by making mistakes (so you can fix them). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolexman Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 A tip: you do not need to practice assembling and disassembling the keyless.... you can teach a monkey to do that. You need to learn about the mechanics and how the parts interact. If you know that ....your keyless problems are over for good as the keyless on every movement, although designed differently, functions the same way. Learn the 'why' not the 'how'. 'Why' does the keyless on a 2836 pop faster than a 7750... 'Why' is the hand wind position the best position on a 2836 to remove the crown... 'Why' does a keyless pop?... Etc. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cougar1 Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 I agree keyless are a pain in the tiits. I feel even when you've done it a 100 times there are just times when it pops that you feel like tearing your hair out and have to walk away. Also the keyless can be very finicky and temperamental on some reps for no apparent reason, bad cloning on some, loose or not smooth even when it is intact. It doesn't help that with some reps stems can be cut badly out of the box, which puts the Kw under more stress. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B3nj4min3 Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 It's a horrible and frustrating feeling when things like that happen. One quick question; are you using a sheet of plastic (like a ziploc bag) over the dial before using the levers? I made my own hand-removing levers from a rod of silver-steel and although they are fairly crude, using the ziploc food bag had helped me avoid marking the dial (so far!) A tip: you do not need to practice assembling and disassembling the keyless.... you can teach a monkey to do that. You need to learn about the mechanics and how the parts interact. If you know that ....your keyless problems are over for good as the keyless on every movement, although designed differently, functions the same way. Learn the 'why' not the 'how'. 'Why' does the keyless on a 2836 pop faster than a 7750... 'Why' is the hand wind position the best position on a 2836 to remove the crown... 'Why' does a keyless pop?... Etc. Thanks for the tip Rolexman, this will prove to be very useful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraggle42 Posted August 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 A tip: you do not need to practice assembling and disassembling the keyless.... you can teach a monkey to do that. You need to learn about the mechanics and how the parts interact. If you know that ....your keyless problems are over for good as the keyless on every movement, although designed differently, functions the same way. Learn the 'why' not the 'how'. 'Why' does the keyless on a 2836 pop faster than a 7750... 'Why' is the hand wind position the best position on a 2836 to remove the crown... 'Why' does a keyless pop?... Etc. No idea what the difference is between 2836 and 7750? Hand wind position is when the castle wheel is in as far as it will go with the spring finger correctly in its shoulder, so pushing the stem in doesn't dislocate the spring finger? The spring finger popping out of the castle wheel shoulder? I've always had a very logical mind so understanding how things work I find easy so long as they dont spring apart into hundreds of pieces before I work it out! (understanding women I find beyond impossible...) It's removing and putting hands back on I need to practise. Moronic newbie question alert!... When removing the fingers, do you usually take them all off at once, or one at a time? I've got a presto style puller but the fingers are 0.5mm depth (yellow handle on it?) which I find far too fat to fit between say the seconds and minute hands. Looking in Offrei I see ones as small as 0.15mm (or 0.2mm for sensibly priced ones) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraggle42 Posted August 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 It's a horrible and frustrating feeling when things like that happen. One quick question; are you using a sheet of plastic (like a ziploc bag) over the dial before using the levers? I made my own hand-removing levels from a rod of silver-steel and although they are fairly crude, using the ziploc food bag had helped me avoid marking the dial (so far!) The place I ordered my tools from threw in a couple of dial protectors for free so I use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woof* Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 Rolexman's tip makes sense. I'm certainly guilty of not enough study. Imagine if I knew theory of the keyless, I would have less problems. So far for me... Keyless 7, Me 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolexman Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 It's removing and putting hands back on I need to practise. If you 'master' the keyless works you should change the topic title than Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cougar1 Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 Moronic newbie question alert!... When removing the fingers, do you usually take them all off at once, or one at a time? I've got a presto style puller but the fingers are 0.5mm depth (yellow handle on it?) which I find far too fat to fit between say the seconds and minute hands. Looking in Offrei I see ones as small as 0.15mm (or 0.2mm for sensibly priced ones) Take all the hands off in one go with those presto pullers, not too sure they work well for removing hands individually, need levers for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B3nj4min3 Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 I take them all off in one go as well using the levers. To be honest, I've never actually tried taking the hands off individually. I'd be too afraid of bending one of the hands. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraggle42 Posted August 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 If you 'master' the keyless works you should change the topic title than Done. LOL I wouldn't even begin to dream of imagining entertaining the thought that I might have "mastered" keyless works! I've mastered breaking them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraggle42 Posted August 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 Take all the hands off in one go with those presto pullers, not too sure they work well for removing hands individually, need levers for that. Ah. I always thought you removed them one at a time for some reason. I was wondering how you avoided marking the tops of the minute & hour hands as you remove the one above it. Every day is a school day! Even for old dogs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolexman Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 Done. LOL I wouldn't even begin to dream of imagining entertaining the thought that I might have "mastered" keyless works! I've mastered breaking them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtiis Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 removing factory installed hands can trash them in a hurry for sure (Omega especially?)... My Smithy is Omega certified and has worked for decades - but says they often get trashed in the removal. I watched him remove a set off a new Speedy I bought and it was true, they were on so tight reuse after removal was a miracle and hit and miss at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trevsdad Posted August 19, 2013 Report Share Posted August 19, 2013 This makes perfect sense. Any further suggestion on how to "...learn the mechanics"? short of studying a lot of movements and trying to connect the dots between function and the slightly different keyless components and their arrangements that perform the same function? Are there any published guides that might be helpful? A tip: you do not need to practice assembling and disassembling the keyless.... you can teach a monkey to do that. You need to learn about the mechanics and how the parts interact. If you know that ....your keyless problems are over for good as the keyless on every movement, although designed differently, functions the same way. Learn the 'why' not the 'how'. 'Why' does the keyless on a 2836 pop faster than a 7750... 'Why' is the hand wind position the best position on a 2836 to remove the crown... 'Why' does a keyless pop?... Etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptTripps Posted August 19, 2013 Report Share Posted August 19, 2013 I just discovered this tip last week: Throw a ziplock bag over the lot and remove the hands with the presto-thing like normal. (Like a giant rubber for the face.)Protects the hands and dial real well. Also keeps the hands from springing across the room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aero_Dave Posted August 19, 2013 Report Share Posted August 19, 2013 I just went through my 1st keyless works fix attempt. It started when I just wanted to see if my gen crown would fit my new GMT. I just bought a bunch of tools so I could learn to do my own work. Took the back off, pulled the stem and found the gen was to big for the tube. No tube removal tool so I'll just put the GMT back together. Nope, not that easy. KW got out-of-wack putting the stem back in. Its an ETA 2834-2, the stem should have gone right back in easy. Took the GMT apart, remove dial & hands ok. Took the entire KW out. Wanted to learn how it all works. Put it back together ok, I thought. But more the watch don't run! Seconds hand just don't move? I really thought I'd done good, because even the date changes right at 12, spot-on. Now what's wrong with it? Dave... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraggle42 Posted August 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 Hack mechanism - stops the seconds hand moving when you're setting the time.I haven't looked to see where it is or how it works yet so someone else will have to tell you where it is and what it looks like Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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