marrickvilleboy Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 I know this topic has probably been discussed before but I want to get this off my chest.. Whats up with this high prices for "modified" watches? All I see these days are fancy marketing words like "uberfranken", "superfranken", "closest-to-gen" models..... starting to sound like dealers now. The way that i see it is, if you are selling a franken, the guidelines should be: 1) Confirm that all parts you have advertised are indeed genuine 2) Compare your franken vs a genuine piece at market value and sanity check if your price is appropriate 3) Your price shouldn't include labour costs associated with putting the watch together prior I say this because you have people selling frankens in the thousands. There is currently a franken 16610 model on RWI selling for $3.5K when you can get a used version for $4.5K. I know its not scamming but I think prices in that range, especially so close to a price of a genuine is "unethical". If our forums are built to prevent high prices for replica watches, then we should also make sure overpriced frankens dont fall through the cracks. Now I know what you're gonna say, fair market dictates that there's a buyer for a certain price but i'm not sure all of the buyers (members) here really know fair price, especially if they are new. /end rant 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seafoam Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 I agree with you somewhat R. Some of this responsibility should come from the buyer in terms of comparing to gen though. You have to factor in the reputation of the seller also. If someone is selling a "super franken" then yes, a cost breakdown should be included in the post. Also, i think there is an actual rwg rule that says you cant modify a watch for the sole purpose of selling at a higher price. Take that for what it's worth i suppose. $3.5k definitely needs a breakdown of the cost put into the watch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
508-Fanatic Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 Well for example, there's a really gorgeous 6263 Daytona on here that is at least 75% genuine and has a V72 movement. Seller is asking $4,300 bucks... I'd pay that if I didn't want to go through the build process as that's pretty much what the parts / watch-smith time will cost me. Actually, if it had the dial I want I probably would have already snatched it up. It's a supreme build. Point is, I think there's some discernment to be had between a Cartel Sub with an ETA in it and some fancy lume-work for $1500 versus masterpiece level builds that need maybe one or two bits before you could sell it to John Mayer for $200k. That's why newbies/non-experts should rely on senior members and lots of research before parting with cash. Agree that there should be a price breakdown... but (not that I'm selling it) I don't even remember what I paid for all the parts in my mostly genuine 5513. Digging all that up would be annoying, but yes should be a requisite. That said, another point of contention would be I ignorantly over-paid for some parts, how does that correlate into fair-market value? Do we take the mean and min for what parts sell for and split the difference? Someone charging $400 for a 703 crown and tube versus someone fire-selling it out for $125... Markets, all markets, will be driven by speculation without regulation... you don't need to read 600 pages of Adam Smith to see that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightwatch Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 This seems to be a debate going on since the forums exist. In the end it will only sell for what the market pays. I doubt there are Noobs wanting to pay more than $1.000 anyway, disregarding how good the built is, so I see the Noob-overpayment in the sub-$1.000 range if it happens. The better the breakdown and the description is and the detail of the pictures, the faster and better it will sell. And there are perfectionist members on here which will hunt for a specific dial or insert or movement for months to produce a rep "that is better than gen". when it comes to vintage. Just saying the price works both ways, if it gets too low (compared to the input/work/expense), for the selling member it just gets uninteresting to sell or is not worth the hassle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civic4982 Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 Well said OP. I'll never truly understand the building of a $7000 vintage rolex while spending $4500! Even at $1000 for most of these nice builds for things like a snowflake don't make sense. Snowflakes are $4-6k. The reps or parted together builds aren't even close at $1000 budget. I have set a 10% rule and $20k. If build is 10% of gen value of if gen is less than $20k don't build it. Just save for the gen. Lots of the guys building these super expensive builds can barely change a set of hands. So if they had to send their watch to be pieced together and hobbled up by a random "modder" why not just buy it all as a gen for the real deal? I mean you're copying it anyways and if your "hobby" is just finding spare parts for someone else to install... Well then you're not even actually building it yourself! Seems a bit silly. If you're at least doing your own lume or the assembly or the reshape or SOMETHING. At least that you can take some pride in it. But anybody can go buy a fistful of nice parts and put it in a box together to mail to some random watchmaker. Just have the Rolex watchmaker who built the gen in 1960s or 1970s be your watchmaker and buy the gen already. Sent from the my iPhone using Tapatalk s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbane883 Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 I fail to see how spending $3500 on a $4k watch make any sense, given the fact that the case might still be rep....Which is why I would never do a "uber-franken" 16610 sub build unless a whack of cheap gen parts just fell in my lap. However, spending $7k on a 6538 big crown sub build can be justified since that is only 1/10 the cost of a genuine equivalent. But, this is a hobby, and most hobbies just don't make economic sense. How many vintage car builds do you see at Barrett-Jackson where the cost to build the "resto-mod" is significantly higher than the sale price? Happens all the time. Part of the fun is in the building and part-hunting process whether its a budget build using a cartel case or a complete genenstein. I personally enjoy the fact that I have to contact several vintage parts dealers, or scour ebay daily looking for the perfect part. I think if there was a super watch parts supermarket where I could find every part I ever wanted, the fun of this hobby would be lost. It would just be too easy. As for cost breakdown, i think that's somewhat irrelevant.. how would you price a rare insert you might have had in a drawer for 20 years? at cost or current market value? If the latter, how is that determined? I think for any build, only a complete list of parts (gen and rep) are required along with the services/mods performed to the case or any other part. Then it's up to the buyer to do their homework and evaluate if the asking price is fair or not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
droptopman Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 For the most part agree with what has been posted. One thing that is hard to measure is the emotional reward--whether you build the watch yourself or have someone do it, the reward can be the knowledge gained from doing the research for a build. Sourcing the correct parts to make it correct for the model and period of the piece. I find this an enjoyable and enlightening experience, as well as the communication with other members on these builds. The development of connections and friendships. The car example is a very good analogy. I have build muscle cars my whole life and lost money on just about every one. And I owned a specialty car lot for many years, so had access to auctions, wholesale prices, my own shop and did most of the work myself. When I say lost money, I am talking about the builds I did for my own vehicles not for the business.... This hobby for me is very similar to that, so the ROI is usually not measured in $. Agree with dbane on the 6538 or similar rare pieces that I would not pay gen money for, but really want to have, so spending 7K on an 80K watch and getting a pretty darn good resemblance works in my logic and lifestyle. But also agree that I would not spend 1/2-2/3 to build a 16610 as they are accessible and affordable. I made this mistake building a 16750. Spent more than 50% gen cost for a nice looking watch but it will always have an incorrect case. First franken build, so learned a lesson. So at this point I am looking for a gen as they are accessible and affordable...... I will say the watch that the OP identified was built by a really good guy who is a real asset to the forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 Everyone has their own personal value equation when it comes to franken building. An for most folks, there is an excitement in the hunt and pleasure in the build that far exceeds simply handing over the dough to someone on the Timezone sales corner... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civic4982 Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 I love the comparison to vintage cars. The question though is would you build a kit car for 50% of the value of the real deal? That's basically what we do with a franken. Sent from the my iPhone using Tapatalk s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbane883 Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 I love the comparison to vintage cars. The question though is would you build a kit car for 50% of the value of the real deal? That's basically what we do with a franken. Sent from the my iPhone using Tapatalk s The only kit car I've ever considered is a Porsche 550 Spyder, which is about 1/100th the cost of the gen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civic4982 Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 Nice!!! Well the reason I make the comparison is that kit cars are more of an apples to apples comparison. If we were to find an old beat up Rolex and fixed it up with maybe a new set of hands that were missing or cleaned up a dirt dial then that would be a better comparison to modding vintage cars. Still I enjoy the different viewpoints and discussion on this thread. Sent from the my iPhone using Tapatalk s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panerai153 Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 Even though I can't do much in the way of modding, I still enjoy the experience of finding the parts, getting everything together, and then having one of the good guys here build it. One if the reasons I own a gen 16610 is because several years ago, I was able to find one in really nice shape, exactly like I wanted for around 2.5K. Now I realize that they have gone up in price, but they can still be found for around 4K. It's impossible to build one with all genuine parts except for mid case and caseback for less than 2.5-3K, if you use a serviced gen movement. It's silly to spend 75-80% of the cost if a gen on a rep, no matter how good it is. Same reason my 1680 has an ETA 2846 movement instead of a 1570, cost would make it too close to gen price, I have a fairly flexible rule of thumb, not more than 30% of gen price. It used to be 20%, but since Rolex parts have gotten so crazy, I had to modify my thinking. As was said above, most noobs aren't going to pay several thousand dollars for a franken, and if they do without any research, asking questions and in general doing their "due diligence", then shame on them. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendota Explorer Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 (edited) Nice!!! Well the reason I make the comparison is that kit cars are more of an apples to apples comparison. If we were to find an old beat up Rolex and fixed it up with maybe a new set of hands that were missing or cleaned up a dirt dial then that would be a better comparison to modding vintage cars. Still I enjoy the different viewpoints and discussion on this thread. Sent from the my iPhone using Tapatalk s I do and I don't necessarily agree. I look at what Dbane, cc33, Nanuq, Droptopman, Freddy, and LukeNorris (sorry if I misspelled names or have left anyone out) have done with super genken big crown builds, and I directly compare these builds to restoring vintage cars. Direct, apples to apples comparison in every way, shape and form. When restoring a vintage auto or wooden boat, you have two choices to make. 1) Is this going to be used for personal enjoyment or 2) will this be shown at auto events, car shows, or boat events and possibly sold down the road. The answer to each of those questions directly impacts the avenue you take for the restoration. In scenario #1, you are free to source aftermarket parts built to OEM specs and at the end of the day, the finished car or boat is still a classic Mustang, or Vette, or ChrisCraft. The only difference is instead of being 100% vintage original, there are some OEM-spec parts included in the thing. In scenario #2, however, a comprehensive accounting for parts is required and you need to stick with as many original parts as humanly possible. Provenance is of the utmost importance and this directly affects your ability to even participate in a show or even consider selling it down the road. Still, regardless of the scenario, every person you encounter on the street, auto/boat lover or general layperson alike, will absolutely love what you have done. No question about it. With these gen parts franken big crown builds that our skilled Jedi have produced, using gen movements, I see them as hybrids between both scenarios. They are for all intents and purposes, gen watches with a reconditioned gen dial and a recase, or whatever you call it when the midcase itself isn't original but the replacement is a direct OEM-spec replacement. Personal enjoyment is a given, but there is without a doubt significant value there down the road if the piece were to be sold. The provenance is easily documented along with the build list, and all someone needs to do is source a gen midcase and they have a 100% gen watch. No, these aren't going to sell for $50K at Christie's, but no buyer looking for that kind of original showcase level piece with paperwork is going to consider a build like this. Regardless, any vintage watch lover/collector or layperson will be in agreement that these are gorgeous and incredible. That's what is the most important. Edited April 2, 2015 by Mendota Explorer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civic4982 Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 But restoration means that the watch there is original and it was an original item to be restored. What we have here are kit cars that may happen to have some gen parts. These are not restored watches by any means. But I agree, they are beautifully done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrickvilleboy Posted April 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 Great replies guys. Don't get me wrong, it is a hobby and I agree with you that the emotional satisfaction is real and yes it is your money so you can do what you like with your watch . My original post is pinpointed actually against selling them at high high prices. Case is in is the 16610 on RWI for $3.5K. Each genuine part he has listed in the watch seems to be marked at above market prices. Yet not one person has tried to "sanity check" the seller. This was advertised: Reshaped tc caseRefished tc bezelSoftened tc v3 bracelet Gen crystalGen insertGen crownGen dialGen handsGen date diskGen 3135! gen crystal: $150 (about right for used) gen insert: $120 (being generous here as one was sold recently here for $90 in great condition) gen crown: $70 (can get even lower) gen dial: $300 (only wildcard here as dial tends to fluctuate a little) gen hands: $200 (can get cheaper if used) Gen 3135: $1700 (one currently been sold atm on RWG for $1800 and no bites) TC watch: $550 Under $3K and this doesnt reflect selling TC parts being replaced. Probably get $200 back once you include the 2824 movement... Sure, he may have sourced each part NEW but if he did that, I wouldnt even know where to begin on the silliness of that in terms of economics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
droptopman Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 Good thread and good points here. I know the seller over there and he is well respected and one of the "good" guys IMHO. Probably why no one will say much. I will say I needed a gen 703 crown recently for a project and needed it quick. I paid $150 for it with no tube so we never really know what someone might have paid for the parts. Not that I am saying that loss should be passed on to the next person but it does happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrickvilleboy Posted April 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 Good thread and good points here. I know the seller over there and he is well respected and one of the "good" guys IMHO. Probably why no one will say much. I will say I needed a gen 703 crown recently for a project and needed it quick. I paid $150 for it with no tube so we never really know what someone might have paid for the parts. Not that I am saying that loss should be passed on to the next person but it does happen. Either that or I was a sucker for selling 2 last year for $60 each lol which I thought was fair bearing I got them for around that price. Mind you, some of the RWI sellers are also very reasonable. Case in point is RSH who was selling gen 703 crowns for $65 I recall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
droptopman Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 Either that or I was a sucker for selling 2 last year for $60 each lol which I thought was fair bearing I got them for around that price. Mind you, some of the RWI sellers are also very reasonable. Case in point is RSH who was selling gen 703 crowns for $65 I recall. Yes he is. I got a couple from him after the fact, but needed that one shipped right away. It was not even in good shape. The ones from RSH were better......That was one of those self imposed impatience fees..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civic4982 Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 Puahahahaha $3500 for a franken 16610?! That's funny and yet so sad... Sent from the my iPhone using Tapatalk s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc33 Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 Puahahahaha $3500 for a franken 16610?! That's funny and yet so sad... Sent from the my iPhone using Tapatalk s Agreed, for the same money you can buy a nice gen 16570 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
508-Fanatic Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 I paid $250 for a gen 703 crown and tube from a guy on here not super long ago who does a lot of selling... I was a n00b and obviously got taken, as I sold them later on, both for less than half that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcardoza Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 I look at it more simply. These guys who can mode with such skill make me envious. They spend substantial monies to satisfy the urge to make these wonderful pieces. Of course, if and when it comes time to sell, they want to recoup as much of their investment as possible. If someone takes it, all is good! If they are priced above what anyone is willing to pay, they have decisions to make. Why criticize? Let the market decide. So simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrickvilleboy Posted April 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 I look at it more simply. These guys who can mode with such skill make me envious. They spend substantial monies to satisfy the urge to make these wonderful pieces. Of course, if and when it comes time to sell, they want to recoup as much of their investment as possible. If someone takes it, all is good! If they are priced above what anyone is willing to pay, they have decisions to make. Why criticize? Let the market decide. So simple. Yes, we're not trying to debate the efficiency of the market as most of us are already in agreeance that it should naturally force a "fair" price in the medium term. However, that shouldn't mean members within this community aren't allowed to check in the seller's thread that the price doesn't seem fair. What I have found lately are sellers stating "don't thread crap" or "if you have nothing good to say, don't say anything at all". The reality is if the price is fair, no one would object to begin with. On the flip side, if you happen to stumble across a piece at a fantastic price prior and sell it after at a higher price, thats fine as long as that latter price is still deemed fair. In summary, i'm pro "sanity checking" sellers and their selling posts. If its not deemed reasonable, it should be stated freely by other members on this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcardoza Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 Sorry, but IMO, that's just too subjective. Personally I'm not into the vintage Rollie's so in my view, they are all overpriced! Lol. Each of us has our own view of value. I say let the buyers decide what's fair and what's not. No need for others to weigh in. JMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendota Explorer Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 (edited) But restoration means that the watch there is original and it was an original item to be restored. What we have here are kit cars that may happen to have some gen parts. These are not restored watches by any means. But I agree, they are beautifully done.I definitely see your point. In my mind, kit cars, or the idea of kit cars, usually means a package or box deal that includes all of the necessary components and instructions delivered to your door or to your mechanic, but you are on your own for assembly or the manufacturer of the kit can sometimes refer you to a local mechanic who can help you with assembly. If I go out and source a vintage Corvette Stingray chassis, then find an engine, and start building the car around that... this isn't a kit. I'm building a vintage car from scratch. This is what Dbane and the others are doing. My wife's uncle works with the guy who owns one of the most beautiful and exotic kit car companies on the planet - the Excalibur roadster. My god, these are insanely gorgeous. He's on the board for his engineering firm. What our Jedi are doing is not kit cars. They are sourcing individual parts from the ground up, part by part. In my opinion, that is building a vintage auto from scratch. You are right about the restoration part. That does imply taking an original piece and rebuilding and improving it. That level of excellence aside, I aspire to be able to make the amazing level of vintage builds that you make. You can take a Silix turd and polish it into an amazing vintage masterpiece! Edited April 3, 2015 by Mendota Explorer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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