Paris attack

[andreww]

Well Andrew going by this thread the obvious answer is the USA and Canada.

The whole issue I have here is this totally indiscriminate idea of 'Kill em all and let God sort them out'

You believe it will never happen, what do you call the Iraq war?

Ken

Not true Ken. I don't think there are very many, if any at all, Canadians or Americans that are at this movement actively plotting to kill muslims.

And did the Iraq war solve anything?

[Beachcomber]

Countries are afraid to participate in the coalition for fear of retaliation, Spain for one. here they are afraid of another train bombing like we had in Madrid.

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[andreww]

My feeling is that a relatively small number of Muslims are terrorists or even extremist. I get that. However, I also believe me that there are a hell of a lot of muslims that are privately pumping their fists when something like this happens. Even though less that 2% are extremist, how many are of the opinion of "Im against it, but they had it coming". 

 

 

Countries are afraid to participate in the coalition for fear of retaliation, Spain for one. here they are afraid of another train bombing like we had in Madrid.

 

 

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That is a big problem. ISIS are bullies and some countries feel its best to avoid them. Let France and the US handle it. If we don't bug them, maybe they'll leave us alone. I know Canada is pulling out as well.

[436NR]

"Not all Muslims are terrorists, but nearly all terrorists are Muslims". Right?

Here are the facts… you decide.

The FBI published a study of all terrorist attacks in the US from 1980-2005.

- 42% Latino based (Christian)

- 24% Extreme left-wing groups

- 7% Jewish Extremists

- 6% Islamic Extremists

- up until 9/11, the worst terrorist attack on US soil was conducted by a White American Christian.

In Europe:

- Europol reported that the vast majority of terror attacks were separatist base with only 2% being religiously motivated. The majority were based on ethno-nationalist and separatist belief.

- FNLC a French terrorist group carrying out coordinated rocket attacks in France.

- FAI an anarchist group in Italy carrying out numerous terror attacks in Italy.

-ETA a terror group in Northern Spain and Southwestern France.

- 2011, one of the worst terror attacks in Europe was the attack that saw the slaughter of 77 people in Norway by a white man to further his Anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant, Pro-Christian agenda.

- the IRA (have we forgotten them) until recent.

There is less likely to be a religious base terror attack than an attack perpetrated by a separatist group trying to further their political agenda.

Just because the media reports, sensationalized, or say that it's so… does not make it so.

Go out and learn things. Form your own opinions. But please, learn the facts before you promote what talking heads are saying.

That's all I have to say about that…

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[freddy333]

Apparently, once stupid, always stupid..................................

French President Francois Hollande Welcomes Refugees Despite Paris Attack

[pcardoza]

The world has changed a lot since 2005........     Not sure of your point and how it relates to the world TODAY.

The FBI published a study of all terrorist attacks in the US from 1980-2005.

 

[kernow]

The world has changed a lot since 2005........     Not sure of your point and how it relates to the world TODAY.

+1

Most, not all but most, of what you hear on the news is Islamist groups causing terror attacks. Not just is the western world, nut across the WHOLE world. Now that maybe because it brings in ratings, more so than a Christian terrorism act, but maybe it's because it's the truth. 

[freddy333]

You decide:

57% of Arab Israelis say Islamic Movement represents them

Poll: 18% of Muslims in Israel say ISIS is not a terror group

'In last year’s survey, 24% of the Arab Muslims demonstrated ‘positive’ and ‘positive to some extent’ views or refused to comment on ISIS. That’s nearly a quarter of the Arab Muslim population either supporting ISIS or remaining silent on its atrocities only 12 months ago.'
How Muslims fuel ‘Islamophobia’

[436NR]

I think it's for me important to clarify that the FBI numbers are US only. Those have not changed significantly.

The European stats are last years numbers.

Quoting Israeli numbers is like burning down someone's home then asking them what they think of fire. It'll be a bit skewed... hitting too close to home.

Look, in my military career I was a member of a "task force" whose primary focus was counterterrorism. I don't expect the general public to know what I know, but at least consider that I may know a little bit more about this.

I just want to steer opinions away from lumping all individuals in a particular group and labeling them into what their not.

There are many terror groups out there, including Buddhist Terror groups. Hard to believe. Just because you don't hear of it on the news does not mean that it does not exist. Some of the worst the world will ever see are actually in the heart of Africa.

Again, just to clarify my point.

Opinions are like A$$holes, we all have one! Some are bigger than others!

I love the fact that despite that we all have different views, we still have a forum. And that is good!

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[kernow]

I think that this discussion is remarkably civil, considering some of the other forums that I venture onto. 

[436NR]

Back to watches...

So… who makes the best sub???

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[gasebah]

It is a bit hard for me to express myself to a complicated matter as this as English is not my native language. The problem I always find in this kind of discussions is that we do not really distinguish between ideas and people. An idea like Islam may be bad but that does not mean that muslims are bad people.

In fact I strongly believe that Islam is very problematic in itself. It is just a fact that the koran is strongly supporting violence and ignorance against non-believers. Moderate muslims must interpret and bend the ideas and rules a lot more to find themselves in the koran than fundamentalists.

I think that we have to fight the idea, but not the people who follow it. We have to stand up against it instead of tolerating it (even if there are muslims that are good people).

[Guest rg21044]

It really is all about the oil at this point. They were running around the desert cutting each other's heads off and stoning thier women to death for revealing to much ankle 100 years ago....and 3 years after the wells run dry or another viable fuel source is discovered they will be back to the same old things. The West will leave them alone.

[KB]

There is a lot of uniformed comments in this thread but this....

"If 98% of the world's 1.5 billion Muslims are truly peace loving, only they can take back control of their religion and eradicate the extremists."

Pretty much takes the cake.

I mean seriously your own people can't stop nut jobs shooting up schools and malls but you hold Aariz who lives next door responsible for ISIS?

Ken

[freddy333]

Honduras Detains 5 Syrians Heading to US With Stolen Greek Passports

[pcardoza]

 I stand by my comments......    Western Europeans and North Americans will NEVER win this fight by target bombing ISIS, Al Qaeda or whatever the next terrorist group will call themselves.    They are all Muslim extremists at this point.  

In my view, silence is acceptance.   If those billions of peace loving Muslims fail to act against the extremist factions, this "war" will go on for centuries, or until someone loses their mind and pushes "the button".

"Aariz" who lives next door may not be the answer, but the leadership of the Muslim faith most certainly would be.

There is a lot of uniformed comments in this thread but this....

"If 98% of the world's 1.5 billion Muslims are truly peace loving, only they can take back control of their religion and eradicate the extremists."

Pretty much takes the cake.

I mean seriously your own people can't stop nut jobs shooting up schools and malls but you hold Aariz who lives next door responsible for ISIS?

Ken

[kernow]

There is a lot of uniformed comments in this thread but this....

"If 98% of the world's 1.5 billion Muslims are truly peace loving, only they can take back control of their religion and eradicate the extremists."

Pretty much takes the cake.

I mean seriously your own people can't stop nut jobs shooting up schools and malls but you hold Aariz who lives next door responsible for ISIS?

Ken

Sorry Ken, but that is a poor analogy. The shootings in schools etc are generally by a single disgruntled teen with social problems. When we talk of Islamic extremists we are usually talking about well funded organisations who recruit young, easily influenced Muslims. 

Whilst I am not particularly religious, I was brought up in the UK, a Christian country. I am tolerant of all faiths and this is part of the problem. Many Muslims here (in the UK) don't want to mix and integrate with the Christian society, but will group together. They wish to convert the UK to an Islamic nation which is wrong as they are the immigrants whom should embrace British culture (I didn't say religion) but they won't. This WILL lead to massive conflict, much more than is currently happening. I don't know when, but I'm sad to say it will happen. 

[KB]

If the only answer people can come up with is to drop a frigging big bomb and wipe out untold numbers of innocent men, women and children just to get to a small number of extremist then you are way worse than the terrorist in Paris.

Don't kid yourself the discussion is about murder on a grand scale because in most of the opinions here there is no difference between a peaceful Muslim and a terrorist.

Ken

[pcardoza]

Ken --- It's pretty clear you aren't taking the time to actually read and understand what most of us are saying.   Very few posts have advocated nuking or carpet bombing anyone.....    

[unreformed66]

So just looking on the flip side.

If a hand full of Christian nut jobs went to Pakistan and shot up a lot of civilians they would be justified in putting a few nukes into most of the major American cities?

After all these nut jobs are Christian so they represent all the Christians right?

No?

Thought not.

Ken

 

So tell me, when was the last time THAT happened? Oh, never. I'm not a religious guy, but I don't see any other religion doing this sort of crap anymore. The days of the IRA and ETA are in the past. It would seem that 100% of the acts of terrorism perpetrated in the last 10 years were perpetrated by one religion. And it wasn't Christians, or Bhuddists, or Hare Krishnas. I'm also not for "nuke them all".

[436NR]

Nope! You guys are right!

Maybe we should round up all the Muslims in Europe and make them wear a Crescent. Then relocate them to special camps where we can keep an eye on them. Maybe even reduce some numbers if you know what I mean.

And in the US maybe we should put on some special robes and wear hoods then run around like a mob and display Muslim terrorists from high places.

Sound familiar?

I know that you're not saying that. But how long will it take before it gets there. Sentiment seems to be heading in that direction.

I would like to think that as a culture we've moved past that. That we practice restraint, and act with emotional intelligence.

The solution is simple… or rather the simple answer that will solve the world's problems is… Genocide!

Or is that wrong? Maybe we need to show restraint and emotional intelligence and find another way?

Cooler heads need to prevail!

I know that I went to an extreme. Sometimes you need to slap someone to help them see the direction their going.

Hell, I've taken out my fair share of terrorists. But we knew who they were and what they did. They were all very bad people. The vast majority had no religious affiliation. But there were some Muslims. I won't lie about that. BUT WE KNEW WHO THEY WERE AND WHAT THEY DID! If we were able to take them alive, we would. Loss of life was considered a failure… from any side.

You couldn't get into this unit if you could not show, restraint, compassion, emotional and mental intelligence.

Bombing them into tomorrow fuels the cause! It's actually part of their recruiting strategy.

"I know what I know… you don't know what I know… but I know what you don't know." Said by a terror expert during one of our intel briefings. That always resonated with me when I wanted to shoot from the hip without knowing all the facts.

If I've offended you, then I apologize. Really! But that's what I meant to do. Sometimes that's what it takes. But I tried to do it in a most respectful way.

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[pcardoza]

So, based on what you know and what we don't know, what's the answer to this mess?   Stay the course?   If you can't beat 'em, join 'em?

Cooler heads need to prevail!

"I know what I know… you don't know what I know… but I know what you don't know." Said by a terror expert during one of our intel briefings. That always resonated with me when I wanted to shoot from the hip without knowing all the facts.

If I've offended you, then I apologize. Really! But that's what I meant to do. Sometimes that's what it takes. But I tried to do it in a most respectful way.

 

[436NR]

So, based on what you know and what we don't know, what's the answer to this mess?   Stay the course?   If you can't beat 'em, join 'em?

I wish that I had the answer, bud.

I can say this much, that the consensus for a long term strategy is to eliminate their recruiting pool by shifting their ideology. But that's not going to be easy while we still have interests in the Middle East. ISIL isn't only recruiting young Muslims, they're also recruiting non-Muslims. Yes, there are non-Muslims fighting for ISIL!!! We created this mess. And that's why they're successful in recruiting people to their cause. This is not an enemy that we can defeat in a conventional way. Military action only makes them stronger or creates a new virus out of the rubble.

So the strategy is to maintain vigilance and take out pocket cells. Unfortunately this is going to become a way of life. It's a long term plan.

I too am disillusioned with this country that I love so much! We lack leadership at the highest levels. They're more interested in fighting amongst themselves than fighting for the good of this country. Even worse, I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel.

Having a taco shack on some Caribbean beach is starting to look mighty inviting!

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[w4tch3r]

To join in a little late- I have a suspicion that ISIS is counting on anti-Muslim xenophobia to make their case against the West even stronger. What I fear will happen is a large scale reactionary aggression toward all Muslims based on fear created by actions of extremists radicals. Sadly, this to me seems the only logical conclusion to continued acts of seemingly random and well orchestrated violence- at least the logic of governments. You've now peed in the proverbial breakfast flakes of Russia and France which will increase violence in the Middle East, leading to more terrorist events in the West, and so on ad infinitum. This is the easiest way to both demoralize the enemy as well as further radicalize currently moderate Muslims- poking the skunk so to speak.  I agree that the game from our end needs to be limited to special ops groups surgically and precisely taking out small numbers of combatants- the worst thing anyone could do is to mount full scale bombings or a large occupying war effort as these would effectively marginalize the otherwise peaceful people of the region and seal the deal for ISIS in gaining more power. I also agree that the Middle Eastern nations need to take greater responsibility in fighting these groups- not because of a responsibility to self-police, but because it would help in lessening the credibility of ISIS in using "The West" as a common enemy and recruiting tool. I do not see any of this ending well- short term solutions are decidedly short sighted and in the electronic era it's a now or never mentality.

 

Not sure if this link has been posted before, but here it is anyway: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkM-SDNoI_8

[KB]

So tell me, when was the last time THAT happened? Oh, never. I'm not a religious guy, but I don't see any other religion doing this sort of crap anymore. The days of the IRA and ETA are in the past. It would seem that 100% of the acts of terrorism perpetrated in the last 10 years were perpetrated by one religion. And it wasn't Christians, or Bhuddists, or Hare Krishnas. I'm also not for "nuke them all".

2012 August 5: Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting, he shooter thought they were Muslim, but I'm sure there were many who said close enough.

You should also research before offering opinions as just from 2010 alone there has been around 20 domestic terrorist attacks on US soil of which the vast majority are perpetuated by Christians.

Ken