More attention to waterproofing

[JoeyB]

20 hours ago, Nanuq said:

I wonder if a dollop of UV glue around the base would hold it, seal it, and not be too visible?

I started using the UV cement on freddy333's advice, and have yet to have a single failure. What I like most is that cleanup is quite easy using alcohol, and it sets clear.  

[Nanuq]

This "UV cement" mystery of which you speak... is this the elusive "G-S Hypo"?




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[jmb]

The UV is a special glue that cures when exposed to UV light, or several hours of direct bright sunlight.  The sunlight thing might be a problem in your latitude.

 

[freddy333]

1 hour ago, Nanuq said:

This "UV cement" mystery of which you speak... is this the elusive "G-S Hypo"?

Click me

[Nanuq]

2 hours ago, jmb said:

The UV is a special glue that cures when exposed to UV light, or several hours of direct bright sunlight.  The sunlight thing might be a problem in your latitude.

 

Rats.  I forgot about the "no sunlight" thing here. 

 

[alligoat]

That UV lamp will do the trick for curing uv glue- or just use the clear epoxy.

[Nanuq]

I like the pinpoint applicators on the clear epoxy. Hmmmmmm

[JoeyB]

9 hours ago, Nanuq said:

I like the pinpoint applicators on the clear epoxy. Hmmmmmm

I can understand anyone's reluctance to click on freddy's "click me" but the UV cement have needle applicators as well. The cements on that page read like a Viagra commercial. 

[Nanuq]

I saw that... without a UV lamp or any sunshine to speak of though, I'd be waiting till next June to cure it.

[richard591]

Christ, what a mess, poor thing!!

May I suggest that once you've sorted out the obvious mechanical issues you complete the job by following gioarmani's post of 2009 about general waterproofing. This is the link:

I have done this to all my rep's (1-sub and 2- DSSD's). The DSSD I use mainly in the pool has been flogging up and down for weeks now - wet/dry and hot/cold with no probs. Temp variations of maybe 20 degrees from pool (30 deg) to hot sun for 20 mins (poss 50 deg) and still no ingress.

Good luck and hope you sort it.

[jmb]

goat - the T22 crystal is around .020" larger in OD than the T21...  

[Timelord]

On 25 August 2016 at 4:51 AM, Timelord said:

Hello,

I may not know much about watchmaking apart from pulling out a mvt, changing the crystal, and repositioning the yoke popping out in the keyless works.

I can say that I had a similar problem with a sapphire crystal submariner I purchased from Paul, [censored] or Aspire whatever his current alias is now.  It was good to swim with and to dip my hand in the bucket etc, until one day it fogged up like yours on a very hot day.

I removed the mvt immediately and it seemed fine and left it in a container of rice for a few days..  I closed off the case with the stem etc and placed the empty case in very cold water which I got out of the fridge.  I immediately pulled it out from cold to very hot water (approx 60 degrees) and noticed bubbles appear near the top part of the crystal and some near the back case.  Glass and rubber have a higher coefficent of expansion than steel.  This sudden change in pressure allowed me to see some weak points which would be what a pressure test would do. 

I bought a new crystal gasket and a back gasket that was slightly thicker and rounder that when I closed off the case back, I could feel the springy rubber feel as I was closing it.  I also removed the o ring gasket inside the crown which was very thin and put some silicone around inside the crown - where I then gently pressed the crown o-ring in to even it in.

I ordered a UV glass kit from ebay and dabbed some around the crystal retaining ring after I had pressed in the crystal.  Do NOT ateempt this it with the bezel on as the UV glue will bind the bezel to the crystal  Surprise surprise!!!! A few days later, I repeated the hot/cold water test again and NO bubbles appeared anywhere.  It has been over 12 months and I can swim with it and on hot and cold days,my crystal has never fogged up again. Just wanting to share my backyard approach.  HOPE that yours will be fine too. 

Out of curiosity, this post got me all worked up to get my replica sub, pressure tested.  Before I went in, I opened it to check the seal and the gaskets around the crown and all seemed intact.  I took it into one of the watch booths that pressure test them and I was pleasantly surprised that it tested well to just over 100 meters. 

Now this is something that I purchased from Paul several years ago (with sapphire crystal).  As someone posted in another earlier thread, these replicas are far more water resistant than they are given credit for - even more so than some 6 digit priced dress watches.  Imagine if it mine and some of yours had the genuine crown/tube, genuine crystal gasket, I would imagine that it would have tested even better. 

One important point that most seem to overlook is the crystal gasket on the sapphire crystal models  They do need to be replaced more often than people may think as they go hard and brittle.  Mine was very bad when it initially fogged up.  It  is also how they are pressed in at factory assembly. Hopefully most of these replicas accept genuine parts and if so, it is worth the cost.

I forgot to mention in my earlier response, that when I worked on water proofing my watch, I had acctually purchased vaccuum pump grease which is also a lithium white grease which I got when I went to the plumbing store to buy my tap washers.  This also helped.  Good luck fellows, it is a privilege for me to belong to this forum

[freddy333]

2 hours ago, Timelord said:

As someone posted in another earlier thread, these replicas are far more water resistant than they are given credit for - even more so than some 6 digit priced dress watches.

Wrong. Any watch is only water-resistant when tested & proven to be so, & it is only water-resistant until it is not (ask Nanuq). Assuming any watch, especially reps (which are assembled with little or no QC), is water-resistant is an accident waiting to happen.

[Timelord]

7 hours ago, freddy333 said:

Wrong. Any watch is only water-resistant when tested & proven to be so, & it is only water-resistant until it is not (ask Nanuq). Assuming any watch, especially reps (which are assembled with little or no QC), is water-resistant is an accident waiting to happen.

To clarify,

of course, if left only to what is done at the assembly line with no quality control, you are right to say - an accident waiting to happen.  In my situation that is exactly what happened - one day my sub fogged up.  

However, replacing my sub with an oem crystal gasket, oversized back seal, quality crown and tube, followed by UV glue around crystal - it passed the pressure test to over 100metres.  Not bad for a replica, as could be the case for other timepieces if given the same attention.  Oh, not forgetting that I used lithium vacuum pump grease around ALL the seals!!!!

 

[Nanuq]

We've even made pressure testers from Nalgene bottles. Check it out.

I figure if I intend to get a watch wet (and I mean seriously wet) then I'll check it first. Even then it's only good until I unscrew the crown again. The Big Gonzo has a gen 8mm crown and it would seal one day and not the next. It turned out to be the gasket didn't fit the crown and stem right and was moving around.

[horologist]

4 hours ago, Nanuq said:

We've even made pressure testers from Nalgene bottles. Check it out.

I figure if I intend to get a watch wet (and I mean seriously wet) then I'll check it first. Even then it's only good until I unscrew the crown again. The Big Gonzo has a gen 8mm crown and it would seal one day and not the next. It turned out to be the gasket didn't fit the crown and stem right and was moving around.

I have had the same problem with my genuine 16610 submariner.  It would perform differently on different times that I would unscrew the crown to set the day of the month.  I was having this exact discussion with rikki on the genuine rolex forum a few years ago. I am sure timelord said that he had his pressure tested at a professional watch outlet.  I guess the moral of the story is that nothing is static, regardless of whether it is a gen or a rep, which is why the Swiss no longer use the term "water proof" & have replaced it with water resistant.  

[gasebah]

I bought this a few months ago, and tested all my watches with it. Before I went on vacation this week I tested all the watches that accompany me again, gens and reps. Gives me peace of mind. As long as you do not plan on taking the watches to a dive this is good enough. If you have a large watch collection it is absolutely worth spending the money. 

http://www.ebay.de/itm/High-Quality-Watch-Waterproof-Tester-Meter-Tool-6Atm-Water-Resistance-Of-Case-W-/331840149972?hash=item4d4336d9d4

Of course things that worked yesterday can still fail tomorrow. Nothing is 100% safe. And of course I only take watches in the water that are waterproof by design (screw-down crown, decently pressed crystal gasket etc.). 

[jmb]

On 8/28/2016 at 10:28 PM, Nanuq said:

We've even made pressure testers from Nalgene bottles. Check it out.

I figure if I intend to get a watch wet (and I mean seriously wet) then I'll check it first. Even then it's only good until I unscrew the crown again. The Big Gonzo has a gen 8mm crown and it would seal one day and not the next. It turned out to be the gasket didn't fit the crown and stem right and was moving around.

I've actually made one of those several years ago but have never used it!

[Nanuq]

I use mine regularly but it sure creeps me out pressurizing a Nalgene to 90psi.

[jmb]

That's why I've not used mine!  Kinda makes me a bit paranoid hooking up a plastic jug to the air compressor...

[horologist]

On 1 September 2016 at 10:13 PM, Nanuq said:

Sure creeps me out pressurizing a Nalgene to 90psi.

Let's not delude ourselves!!!  The crystal on those vintage sea dwellers was acrylic which of course is plastic and when you put 200 metres of water pressure on it,  you would expect it to hold that pressure.  I have actually cracked some of those crystals in the old days when I dd not line them up properly while putting them on and it was  with little force

[Nanuq]

Very true.  But consider the shape of the two "pressure vessels". 

A Nalgene being compressed from the inside bulges out dramatically... I've had mine blow the screw-down cap off.  Scary as heck.  The internal forces press pieces outward and apart, weakening the seals.

A Sea Dweller crystal is compressed from the outside and that pushes the crystal down even tighter onto the case.  The higher the pressure, the more it seals until it collapses.

My 1665 was used as a commercial diving instrument for nearly 20 years and was resealed and tested to max pressure every year.  It's been to max pressure (2000 feet) in chambers several times and never had trouble during decomp... the HEV did its job.  Several other watches in the chamber failed during extended decomp and blew their crystals with a bang... the internal pressure replicated what my Nalgene is doing now.

[horologist]

I am not defending the Nalgene bottles at all!!  I also have my doubts as to whether they are another scam or can function without encroaching the design limitations  - I couldn't say!!!

The point I was  trying to make is exactly like gasebah implied that nothing is 100 % safeproof.  It may work today but fail tomorrow!   When I reflect on those acrylic crystals that were once used on most divers watches, regardless of how well they were sealed, I often wondered how they could really do their job, when considering that plastic expands and contracts at a different rate to metal and worst still with how easy they were to break with little misalignment pressure.   It is always safer to stick with the genuine old pressure testers  in contrast to these new fads today 

[Nanuq]

And what is a good sealed crystal in the morning can develop a leak point without even noticing it. Bottom line, you have to look it over before you get in the water and still you'll miss cracks down by the retaining ring, covered by the bezel.

[freddy333]

1 hour ago, horologist said:

When I reflect on those acrylic crystals that were once used on most divers watches, regardless of how well they were sealed, I often wondered how they could really do their job, when considering that plastic expands and contracts at a different rate to metal and worst still with how easy they were to break with little misalignment pressure.

The xtal is installed so that it is in a somewhat compressed state, which maintains a constant (expansive) pressure against the case & that provides the seal. However, if/when the plastic begins to harden due to age, UV exposure or minor defects - innate or due to damage - the seal may fail & the failure point will leak. 50 years ago, when genuine Rolex Plexiglass xtals were newly manufactured, they were much more pliable & resilient than the NOS parts are today. This is why it is often better to install a good aftermarket xtal rather than a NOS genuine Rolex xtal if you plan to use your watch near or in water. Still, even with a new xtal, in the case of an valuable watch, I would (& do) either avoid moisture altogether or have the watch (properly) pressure-tested (at least) yearly. Otherwise, your watch is only water-resistant until it isn't.