Sogeha Posted May 9, 2018 Report Share Posted May 9, 2018 ^^^^This^^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike on a bike Posted May 10, 2018 Report Share Posted May 10, 2018 Maybe so but I'd would sure like to see you guys get a greater say in policy's you have to live under. You see my signature and I am willing to take risks to retain control of my life. What you trade off for less risk is not acceptable to me. We are crazy Americans they will say but all the risk takers from all over Europe and everywhere else jumped on a boat or a plane to get here. It is to be expected their decendants are risk takers and prize thier freedom more than percievied (IMHO) safty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sogeha Posted May 10, 2018 Report Share Posted May 10, 2018 15 hours ago, Mike on a bike said: but all the risk takers from all over Europe and everywhere else jumped on a boat or a plane to get here. I get what you are saying, but there is considerable romantic licence there my friend. Deported criminals, those evading the law and other undesirables also left Europe for the States. New York was a pirate colony at one time. Also those that were already successful in Europe tended not to leave🙄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasebah Posted May 10, 2018 Report Share Posted May 10, 2018 Europe is currently bound to the North by populism and to the South by refugees that are drowning in the sea to the East by Putin’s tank, to the West by the Trump Wall. Europe was threatened in the past by war, in the future by Brexit. Today Europe is alone more than ever and it is extremely cold outside. Europe is necessary more than ever but its citizens do not know it. Europe is by far the best solution but you cannot explain it to people that don’t understand history and that it is reversible. Globalization teaches us that today Europe is inevitable, there is no alternative. But Brexit also tells us that you can walk backwards in history. Brexit was a terrible and selfish decision. Europe is not a market, it is the will to live together. Leaving Europe is not leaving a market, it is leaving shared dreams. We can have a common market, but if we do not have common dreams, we have nothing. Europe is the peace that came after the disaster of war. Europe is the pardon between French and Germans. Europe is the return to freedom of Greece, Spain and Portugal. Europe is the fall of the Berlin Wall. Europe is the end of communism. Europe is the welfare state, Europe is democracy, Europe is fundamental rights. To walk away from all this to have "freedom" is terribly shortsighted and ignoring history. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike on a bike Posted May 10, 2018 Report Share Posted May 10, 2018 35 minutes ago, Sogeha said: I get what you are saying, but there is considerable romantic licence there my friend. Deported criminals, those evading the law and other undesirables also left Europe for the States. New York was a pirate colony at one time. Also those that were already successful in Europe tended not to leave🙄 Yes a bit of that also and they sure we're an independent lot who in time had desendants who were law abiding but again with that independent tendency. 21 minutes ago, gasebah said: Europe is currently bound to the North by populism and to the South by refugees that are drowning in the sea to the East by Putin’s tank, to the West by the Trump Wall. Europe was threatened in the past by war, in the future by Brexit. Today Europe is alone more than ever and it is extremely cold outside. Europe is necessary more than ever but its citizens do not know it. Europe is by far the best solution but you cannot explain it to people that don’t understand history and that it is reversible. Globalization teaches us that today Europe is inevitable, there is no alternative. But Brexit also tells us that you can walk backwards in history. Brexit was a terrible and selfish decision. Europe is not a market, it is the will to live together. Leaving Europe is not leaving a market, it is leaving shared dreams. We can have a common market, but if we do not have common dreams, we have nothing. Europe is the peace that came after the disaster of war. Europe is the pardon between French and Germans. Europe is the return to freedom of Greece, Spain and Portugal. Europe is the fall of the Berlin Wall. Europe is the end of communism. Europe is the welfare state, Europe is democracy, Europe is fundamental rights. To walk away from all this to have "freedom" is terribly shortsighted and ignoring history. I guess that is one way to look at it, but globalization takes from the haves and gives to the have nots. Being in the haves I would be a fool to support it. With China nipping at our heels both in economic and military power in our best interest to strengthen ourselves. Keep in mind we are the world's policeman without our armed forces the EU would have to spend a lot more on defence, in your interest for us to remain strong. Oh by the way who took down that wall for you France , Germany, nope we did, you have what you have by our good graces. So allow us to be invested in our American exceptualism it makes us rather boorish at times but we mean well and rarely if ever leave a friend in need wether in blood or treasure we answer the call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasebah Posted May 10, 2018 Report Share Posted May 10, 2018 31 minutes ago, Mike on a bike said: Yes a bit of that also and they sure we're an independent lot who in time had desendants who were law abiding but again with that independent tendency. I guess that is one way to look at it, but globalization takes from the haves and gives to the have nots. Being in the haves I would be a fool to support it. With China nipping at our heels both in economic and military power in our best interest to strengthen ourselves. Keep in mind we are the world's policeman without our armed forces the EU would have to spend a lot more on defence, in your interest for us to remain strong. Oh by the way who took down that wall for you France , Germany, nope we did, you have what you have by our good graces. So allow us to be invested in our American exceptualism it makes us rather boorish at times but we mean well and rarely if ever leave a friend in need wether in blood or treasure we answer the call. Yeah well you could argue that the demise of the Soviet Empire took the wall down, or an open minded thinker like Gorbatschow, or ideas that could not be held off any longer. But I do not want to diminish the US role in it and we are grateful. I can also live with and understand the US exceptualism as you call it. But I think your remarks about Brexit are shortsighted and made without taking into account what the European idea really is. And I am sick and tired of simplistic nationalists in Europe that endanger the values and ideas that took decades to develop. And that is it. After all this is watch forum and not a political discord. I like it here and if I continue I will likely say things I might later regret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomhorn Posted May 10, 2018 Report Share Posted May 10, 2018 Just as I have issue with people who are not Americans trying to tell "us" how to live or what's best for our country, I also won't begin to try to tell people in other countries the same. When you don't have the proper frame of reference it's impossible. I think there are some good things about the EU (the ease of being able to work), but from an American point of view there are a lot of things I wouldn't want for my county (for example the extra layer of overbearing regulations that MOAB mentioned). Still, it's not for me to say if it's best for those in Europe, as I lack the proper context to do so. We had a President and Congress that for the better part of eight years tried to move us toward being "Europe West" and found that the people opposed it so much we ended up with Trump (MAGA) as President. It was actually Brexit that foreshadowed the Trump victory. Whether it ends up being the catalyst for the rest of the EU to break up remains to be seen, but the countries involved will have to figure out what's best for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kernow Posted May 10, 2018 Report Share Posted May 10, 2018 What a load of bollocks. Now, who has the best sub. Hmmmm ..... don’t tell me the ‘mericans!!! BTW I voted for Brexit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasebah Posted May 10, 2018 Report Share Posted May 10, 2018 3 hours ago, kernow said: Now, who has the best sub. Hmmmm ..... don’t tell me the ‘mericans!!! The last time I looked it were the Swiss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sogeha Posted May 10, 2018 Report Share Posted May 10, 2018 10 minutes ago, gasebah said: The last time I looked it were the Swiss. The Swiss don’t even have a sea. USA, Seawolf by a county mile Anyway as @kernow said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike on a bike Posted May 10, 2018 Report Share Posted May 10, 2018 I agree Tom just as I said wish my friends in EU had a bit more say on things. But if they like it that way well whatever just not for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kernow Posted May 11, 2018 Report Share Posted May 11, 2018 Who has the best banana? Why Europeans of course - the (crazy) EU (over)regulations stipulate what shape a banana can be - if it does not have enough bend in it then it should be rejected and sold as a ‘second’! There are plenty of crazy rules here - set by non elected EU ministers. We have given enough and the British have elected to leave the union. The problem is that there are rich and poor countries within the EU - or as Mike said; the haves and have nots. I work hard to earn a little money here in the U.K. whilst EU citizens can work here for 180 days and then go home to Poland, Romania, Bulgaria etc taking all their earnings (ie without paying income tax) and enjoy a life costing a quarter of what it costs to live in the U.K. This is sad but true - I work with them for 3-4 months of the year. I don’t begrudge them as they are working to the rules set by Brussels! I’d do the same if I were in their shoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sogeha Posted May 11, 2018 Report Share Posted May 11, 2018 Under the 1872 Licencing Act it is still illegal to be drunk in a public house in the UK. All governments back silly, good and bad laws, that the European Parliament needs reform and overhaul is not the question. The question is why leave one of the biggest free markets it the World in order to negotiate a trading agreement with one of the bigest free markets in the World. Currently the British Government doesn’t seem to have a clue what to do. Five miles North of me, will we have a hard border, a soft border or effectively no border as at present. A hard border risks renewing the problems of the past, no border or a soft border makes a joke of UK independence. Not to mention that I can walk across my mates field, wade ankle deep across a stream that is called a river and walk across the same mates fields in the UK and there is not a damn thing the UK or Irish governments can do about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kernow Posted May 11, 2018 Report Share Posted May 11, 2018 I think that it was more than just the trade agreement. There are massive cultural differences between the nations that will/are causing problems. The massive immigration in Germany has already caused problems. People like to have an identity - mine is Cornish/English/British. Whilst I’m a European, I don’t think of it as an identity. Anyway, there’s fog in the channel; Europe is isolated. 🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sogeha Posted May 11, 2018 Report Share Posted May 11, 2018 I well remember that front page😀 I don’t think we will ever agree on this subject my friend, but I do think that when the dust finally settles those that voted to leave will find they didn’t really get any of the things they were voting for. Like Boris Johnson’s £350Million for the national health service, they just won’t exist. I think immigration into the UK will continue at much the same level, it is still far from decided what sort of border control the UK will have with Europe and the latest is that Britain might still be obliged to comply with European law while no longer having any say in making the laws. When Germany and all other European Union countries wanted to curb immigration from outside the union, it was Britain alone that vetoed the proposal, something the leave campaign wasn’t exactly transparent about. Unfortunately both sides of the campaign lied to the electorate on an unprecedented scale and have not been brought to account. Enough now, I’m going to go look at watch porn, safe in the knowledge that I have British, European and none European nationality and whatever happens it is very unlikely to affect me.😇 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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