Low Ball vs Higher Ball vintage submariner replicas...

[automatico]

Let's call 'Low Ball' replicas the models we normally refer to as run of the mill '21 jewel' models.  They may have a few flaws such as goofy crown guards, solid mid links, wrong hoods (bracelet end pieces), dimly painted lettering on dials etc and the movement may be held in place by a plastic spacer or maybe even crews/clamps.  In order to be worth consideration they need to be oem construction at least...will accept oem spec crystals and bezels.  The case back gasket can be in the back like genuine or in the case like later models or vintage SD, this really does not matter.  There needs to be enough metal around the spring bar holes in the lugs to allow them to be drilled for genspec spring bars.  Watches like this usually sell for around $175 to $200 from a TD.  After a few light mods they usually end up costing around $300 or so.

 

Next, let's call 'Higher Ball' replicas watches with a higher quality case and an etaclone, swiss ETA or other high quality movement.  They usually have close to genspec cases and bracelets with hollow mid links along with screws and clamps holding the movement in place etc.  The movement is usually an Asian etaclone 2824 or 2836 and they sell for around $250 to $350.  Some may have swiss Etas but the movement may be a combo of swiss and clone parts or a used swiss eta that may or may not need service.  After medium mods they usually end up costing between $400 and $600.

 

Q...Why would I come up with this goof ball comparison?

A...Because I have one of each and have worn them day in, day out for a while to see if there is much difference in their performance.

 

The two examples compared:

A 'cartel 5513' with a Seagull ST16 movement (c/o to give it a better chance of survival).  It has a Clark crystal, 'spring wire' bezel assembly from a DW submariner, brass movement spacer with screws and clamps, the crown that came with it, lug holes drilled to 1.3mm, pretty good solid mid link bracelet with screws in the removable links, and WSO 990 hoods.

A 'nos' '5514' from Paul at Abay from 12 or 14 years ago with the original (new at the time) Eta 2836 removed and a freshly c/o Eta 2846 installed.  The HEV (oem spec more or less) was removed and a pressed in plug installed that looks the same on the outside.  DW bezel assembly and Clark crystal with the original crown and tube that came with the watch.  The lug holes were drilled out to somewhere around 1.5 or so with solid pressed in stainless steel bars installed with the ends contoured and polished so they are smooth with the lugs.  It has a one piece nylon strap with a steel buckle and two steel strap keepers.

 

I have worn them before and for this 'road test' I wore each one for a week every day to compare the performance between the Eta 2846 and ST16.  The ST16 powered watch is about 35 seconds fast in a week (I am still wearing it).  The Eta 2846 was about 1 minute fast in a week.  Both were worn all day and usually parked at night.  When they were parked it was with the case vertical and the '12' up.

 

The Eta has more reserve when parked than the Seagull after a day or two of active wear...it will run for at least 30 hours and the Seagull will run for around 24 hours.  This Seagull just does not have very long reserve even with the efficient 'magic lever' type winding system.  I have the same movement in a DJ replica and it has much more reserve and also keeps very accurate time.  When I had the ST16 from the '5513' apart I also cleaned the mainspring and barrel then put Mobius 8201 on the barrel wall, floor, and cap.  The 8201 may be alllowing the MS bridle to slip on the barrel wall prematurely and this may account for the lower reserve.  The ST16 movement in the DJ has not been c/o, only the balance jewels and anything else I could easily get to were oiled.

Both have so-so dials with fair letters and dots...the letters are a bit dim compared to a Yuki etc dial but the matte black paint is good on both. The hands are average.

 

What is the performance difference between a $200 '21 jewel' replica and a $350 mid level replica?

Not much imho...as long as both movements have been c/o. I would go for the Eta movement because of ease of service and parts availability IF I had the $$ to spend and planned on swapping the supplied swiss Eta/etaclone out for a fresh swiss Eta when needed. The Eta in the '5514' may be able to run a little bit closer with rate adjustment but it is Ok with me as is. I doubt the ST16 will get much closer because it rounds out at about 5 seconds a day fast...pretty good. It may go haywire as time goes by but right now it is fine and dandy.

 

So...if I was going to buy a 'beater' replica, I would probably just get a '21 jewel' model and see how it goes.  Many '21 jewel' models have the same cases/dials /bracelets as the 'swiss' models anyway.  You might have the lug holes bored and maybe reshape the CG for not much time and $$.  Most will come with a NN or DG instead of the ST16...not much difference.

 

Meanwhile you might be saving the $$ for a MBK/Yuki/Viet case with an Eta or 15xx Relax movement.

But...when I compare either one of the watches above with my MBK '5512' with Relax 1570/Yuki dial...at a glance they all look the same.

 

BIG difference in $$ for very little return. 

Back to square one... 

　

　

　

　

　

　

[Nanuq]

Yes indeed, the devil is in the details. My first Big Crown was maybe $300, then after a year I punched it up to the next level. Total outlay including the initial $300 was about $800. It was magnificent!! Well to be honest the difference at arm's length was negligible.

So I waited a couple years for *cough* the right dial, and I went big. Loads of gen parts make for big numbers and in the end I have maybe five large in it. And does it look any better than the mid-grade version?

Yes, but only because the education I acquired to build it taught me what to look for.

Think about that for a minute.

[Sogeha]

So what you are saying Minty, is stay dumb?

[jmb]

3 hours ago, Sogeha said:

So what you are saying Minty, is stay dumb?

Probably good advice.  Most people would be more than satisfied (and have a fatter wallet) with their out of the box $150 rep if it wasn't for this joint!

[automatico]

Staying dumb.

 

I would have been better off if I had stayed dumb.  The more I learned about watches the smarter I thought I was. 

Then I started screwing with replicas.

 

Before long I could tell a 'Low Ball' replica from a 'Higher Ball' replica so I went after the Higher Ball models because they were...Better! 

Turns out, not so much.  They just cost more. 

 

Then I got smarter and smarter and went chasing after Frankensteins.  They are 'cool' for having a genuine movement etc but parts can get expen$ive in a hurry.

I stuck a few together and the rest of them are still in parts years later.  

 

What have I learned?

1...A fresh swiss Eta is probably better than an NN/DG/Seagull, etaclone etc.

2...A Relax 1520/60/70 is no better than a fresh swiss Eta...in a replica.

3...If it looks good on the outside...it can be 'ugly' on the inside.   

[Nanuq]

1 hour ago, automatico said:

What have I learned?

1...A fresh swiss Eta is probably better than an NN/DG/Seagull, etaclone etc.

2...A Relax 1520/60/70 is no better than a fresh swiss Eta...in a replica.

3...If it looks good on the outside...it can be 'ugly' on the inside.   

 

Amen, bingo, etc. etc. etc.

 

Let me also add:

4...In the world of scarce 1030 autowinding wheels, an ETA movement is your friend.

 

[capice]

Have to admit I bought a "lowball" Pam 005 with a gen A21j back in 2006....for about 100 bucks. Even today it is still running and keeping reasonable good time ( off min 2 min/day).

[alligoat]

I have to get my Rolex movements serviced way more than my etas. I've never serviced my MBW 1680 from 2006 and it's still running fine. Some of those 1570/1520s have been serviced at least twice since then. 

Never serviced this 2834-2 either

[automatico]

"I have to get my Rolex movements serviced way more than my etas."

 

I know what you mean.

 

I do not wear a genuine rolex much at all but have worn a '5512' Frankenstein quite a bit with a 1570 in it and it has been apart twice in 3 or 4 years for various ills.  Also have a '5513' F-stein with a 1520 and it ran fine for a year or two and now it is down and out for some reason. 

 

These two examples may not mean much at all statistically but the point is it seems I am always anticipating the next breakdown when wearing a rolex.  Many wear older models with 15xx movements for years with no trouble but they just make me uncomfortable. 

As far as that goes, wearing any genuine rolex gives me the willies.

Etas on the other hand do not make me uneasy at all.

 

Have a 16233 DJ that has been bothering me for years (just owning it bothers me).  Priced it to a buyer a while back and he said:  "Ok, if you will guarantee it for a year."  No deal.  I do not want that thing haunting me for a year, waiting for it to eat $500 worth of overpriced eBay parts.

 

I would not give the standard watch trader 'Out Of Sight' warranty on any rolex, much less a whole year. 

Standard OOS warranty:  When the buyer gets out of sight, the watch is out of warranty.

[Nanuq]

wearing any genuine rolex gives me the willies.
Etas on the other hand do not make me uneasy at all.

Amen brother. Would I take the Big Gonzo out diving if it was running a gen movement? Not on your life.