Little White Lies We're Supposed To Tolerate?

[Watchmeister]

Information is better with several dealers with published prices. But I do find I am just as likely to get a good price from one who doesn' t list prices as one who does. Take advertising for what it is - advertising. And ask your dealer whatever questions you have. They do answer truthfully. Would you buy a gen without asking questions?

[TwoTone]

Ohhhhh the irony.

@Chief

I would say that your choice of words is perfect: "Irony"

Irony, from the Greek ειρων (self-deprecator), is a literary or rhetorical device in which there is a gap or incongruity between what a speaker or a writer says, and what is generally understood (either at the time, or in the later context of history). Irony may also arise from a discordance between acts and results, especially if it is striking, and known to a later audience. A certain kind of irony may result from the act of pursuing a desired outcome, resulting in the opposite effect, but again, only if this is known to a third party. In this case the aesthetic arises from the realization that an effort is sharply at odds with an outcome, and that in fact the very effort has been its own undoing.

More generally, irony is understood as an aesthetic valuation by an audience, which relies on a sharp discordance between the real and the ideal, and which is variously applied to texts, speech, events, acts, and even fashion. All the different senses of irony revolve around the perceived notion of an incongruity, or a gap, between an understanding of reality, or expectation of a reality, and what actually happens.

There are different kinds of irony. For example:

Tragic (or dramatic) irony occurs when a character onstage is ignorant, but the audience watching knows his or her eventual fate, as in Sophocles’ play Oedipus the King.

Socratic irony takes place when someone (classically a teacher) pretends to be foolish or ignorant, but is not (and the teaching-audience, but not the student-victim, realizes the teacher's ploy).

Cosmic irony is a sharp incongruity between our expectation of an outcome and what actually occurs.

H. W. Fowler, in Modern English Usage, had this to say of irony:

Irony is a form of utterance that postulates a double audience, consisting of one party that hearing shall hear & shall not understand, & another party that, when more is meant than meets the ear, is aware both of that more & of the outsiders’ incomprehension.[1]

Irony has some of its foundation in the onlooker’s perception of paradox. For example, in June, 2005, the State of Virginia Employment Agency, which handles unemployment compensation, announced that they would lay off 400 employees for lack of work because unemployment is so low in the state. The reader’s perception of a disconnection between common expectation, and the application of logic with an unexpected outcome, both has an element of irony in it and shows the connection between irony and humor, when the surprise startles us into laughter. Not all irony is humorous: “grim irony” and “stark irony” are familiar.

[gioarmani]

I base my judgement on what I'm told....backed up by my own research......for instance....sapphire.....I use the word genuine ....backed up by my tester....sometimes I even put up a photograph of it being tested...( see recent posts )......as for 'Swiss'...that's a very widespread and loosely used term.....I prefer not to use it.....from my point of view...... recently...... they are all Asian....I have a 183G up for sale at present....I use the term Swiss in that adverrt because it was one of the original 183's with Unitas movement.....no foil on the bridge plates etc etc....I also had a Breitling Chronomat.....wherein I use the term 1:1.....but I use that only in the dimensions...because it's the exact dimensions of the original.....!

I've seen watches on the most prominent dealers site that I have also been selling.....and the case dimensions are way off.....stating diameters that bear no relation to the original or even the ones I'm selling.....I mean.....how can you have a Navitimer....with a difference of 5mm in thickness.....I'll tell you how.......these dealers are NOT taking the dimensions of the watch....they're relying on factory information.......which is all over the place.....!

The period punctuation on your keyboard has got to be worn down to a nub.

[eddhead]

When a dealer sells you a "1:1" or "Perfect" watch with a "Synthetic Sapphire" crystal and a "Lemania" or "Asian ETA" movement, what are you actually getting?

These are amongst the most common lies told by dealers. It's a war of escalation where one dealer mislabels something and then the others have to follow suite or else have a product that's perceived as inferior. Well, it's time, as a community, to stop the [censored]. We're here to stop people getting scammed, right? Yet we tolerate some lies because we assume people will realise the dealers are just using marketing language.

Here's the truth: There is not a single replica available from any of our dealers with a Lemania movement. Asian ETA movements, as sold in the new generation of reps, are not ETA movements at all. There is simply no perfect 1:1 replica of a Rolex Sub. The term Synthetic Sapphire should mean real, lab-grown Sapphire as found in genuine Rolexes, Omegas and the likes, but in some dealers cases, they use it to mean Mineral Glass, as used by bloody Timex.

I'd hate to have to ask every time I bought a watch if what they advertised was truthful or mere advertising, so please try to convince your friendly dealers (It's mostly Josh and Trusty, the most prolific sellers here, that use these lies with abandon) to stop bullshitting us. Using words like Ultimate or Best Ever is understandable, it's the usual hyperbole required to show your newer model is better than the last, but perfect and 1:1 mean something absolute.

They're getting worse and it's time to stop.

I'd love to hear your opinions on how we can deal with it, but we need to do something as just telling the dealers hasn't worked for me..

I completely agree. This is a great post and a great topic for dialog.

[tvt]

Pug is, of course, 100% correct. This has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time and yet when someone mentions it on a board it brings all sorts of controversy, why is beyond me.

There are simple facts, things are being described as something they are not, period. I am not even talking about somewhat vaugue terms like "swiss" but rather out right deception. Calling a movement a "genuine ETA" when in fact it has NOTHING to do with ETA, was not made by them in any factory and certainly does not run or operate as well as a genuine (if at all).

This is just black and white stuff here, no grey area... it is a lie designed to deceive people so more watches can be sold... that simple.

I have found that it has gotten much worse actually over the years. 5 years ago dealers were not deceiving people on the boards anywhere near as blatently. Sure, the terms "Swiss" and the like would be used but never just flat out lies about what was inside the watch. And of course this was LONG before the [censored] terms like "1:1" were ever used. I have seen "1:1 ultimate perfect" watches that are junk, so far from the genuine in size, materials and quality that it really is a joke.

What bothers me the most is that there will always be a chorus of people who claim that any individual watch is "perfect" and "just as good or better than the genuine" and so on. These people are buying into the lies, they believe what they have been told and when they buy junk they do not even know that they have been deceived. As Pug mentioned I thought the purpose of boards like this was to help each other and cut through the crap, instead it often turns into people arguing about how it is OK to be lied to because we all know we are being lied to. I just don't understand that view point and I think if one looks around they will plainly see that a LOT of people don't seem to "get" that they are in fact being blatently deceived.

[Guest TTK]

Not as much as your perspicacity...

Edited January 20, 2007 by TTK

[Pugwash]

Why you came up this now ???

Anything particular happened ???

If anything particular had happened, I'd have said it.

This came up now when someone else mentioned the "New Asian/ETA 2836" assuming it was an ETA 2836 movement.

I mentioned it because nobody else has. I am not afraid of my dealers cutting off my supply, for instance. My primary dealers (Precious Time, Narikaa, Silix and of course TTK) don't lie, but I'm not going to tell everyone to shop with them, am I?

LOL! 'Cause ,like, three threads, pug still doesn't get that there is just accepted industry jargon that predates most of our involvement w/ the rep boards dispite it's inaccuracy: Lemania, Synthetic Sapphire, etc. Ain't never gonna change, and they're not really that misleading a)because most people already know what they mean, b)noobs will run accross dozens of threads that clarify these issues if they bother to search, and most imbortantly, they're used to denote specific parts not subjectively indicate quality or accuracy.

[censored].

The point of this board is to help people avoid getting scammed by the real scammers, but we tolerate a little scamming when it's from our friends? The sooner we all tell dealers to stop lying, the sooner it will happen.

[thewightstuff]

you make some valid points pugwash thats for sure. many ive thought myself at some time.

while there needs to be some realisation that since you are getting a rep it cannot be perfect in every way and still cost much less than a gen however that withstanding theres definately alot of room both for improvement and language used around reps IMHO. neither of which i see taking place.

i do wish though that people would grasp the "synthetic sapphire" issue. ive repeated this so many times ive lost count.

synthetic sapphire as used for watch crystals, be it rolex gens or your reps is just that. sapphire grown artificially within a lab rather than occuring naturaly.

the costs of trying to get quality natural sapphire would prohibit its use for such an application.

all sapphire watch crystals are synthetic. this is not the same as mineral glass

[olga]

To the extent that things are discussed and offered on these boards, I agree with Pug. We have to remember that the sites that have been set up on the web are not just for us, so the dealers can do or say whatever they wish. It is up to their character to decide where the line between creative advertising and deceit lies. As for the boards, why don't we just agree to make it simpler for all. If you say sapphire then it had better be sapphire whether you chose to stick the words genuine or synthetic in front of it doesn't matter, sapphire is sapphire. If the movement is an ETA and the words copy or clone don't appear then it had better be something that came from an ETA factory, be it a swiss factory or asian one. The seagull st19 was mistakenly indentified as a lemania copy in the early days, we all know the truth now that it is a venus copy, so could we please drop the lemania label once and for all. We can be honest here, let the rest of the world figure it out on their own.

[AMK000]

I am not afraid of my dealers cutting off my supply, for instance. My primary dealers (Precious Time, Narikaa, Silix and of course TTK) don't lie, but I'm not going to tell everyone to shop with them, am I?

Don't worry,

Dealers will not cut off your supply.

They need your money as much as you need their watches.

[nonskeder]

Ohhhhh the irony.

Right on!!! What you are asking is a compass not to point north. The whole rep process starts as a lie and ends with a lie. We mod our watches to further the lie. We demand better products to lie with more conviction. The dealers are here for one reason and one reason only. To make as much money as possible. I too am tired of the process of trying to figure out what is true and what is not. It is all a definite maybe.

When I was in college a thousand years ago we called optomistic advertising "harmless trade puffery". We all knew that the slogan or claim was total BS but we winked at it and bought the product anyway. Same thing about this with one big difference. This is illegal from the get go. It is like asking a counterfeiter to to make the perfect bill and tell the truth to what ever official is near by. Will never happen. This whole thing is like a carnival and boy you had better let the buyer beware!

Pug, I applaude your sensitvity on the subject but think you are pissing down a well. You are asking a merchant who decieves for a living to tell us (the shill) the truth about what he is going to lie about. Oh well none of this matters in the long or shor haul.

Edited January 20, 2007 by nonskeder

[Pugwash]

Pug, I applaude your sensitvity on the subject but think you are pissing down a well. You are asking a merchant who decieves for a living to tell us (the shill) the truth about what he is going to lie about. Oh well none of this matters in the long or shor haul.

They don't deceive us as a rule. We usually know what we're getting, it's not as if they're selling them as gen.

If I [censored] down a well, at least my bladder is emptied.

They need your money as much as you need their watches.

And as such, we have some leverage.

[r11co]

(It's mostly Josh and Trusty

I've not even touched the rest of this thread yet, but thanks for doing the call-out Pug!! Brave man!

It was a year ago that the same Trusty watch person advertised the first of the Asian 'Unitas' 6497 copies as Swiss and priced his Pam sporting it accordingly.

Caveat Emptor still stands, but as a community we stand not to be taken advantage of!

If I [censored] down a well, at least my bladder is emptied.

And if someone notices the water tastes a bit pishy, the pisser shouldn't think they weren't spotted at the rim with their flies down....

[By-Tor]

Right on!!! What you are asking is a compass not to point north. The whole rep process starts as a lie and ends with a lie. We mod our watches to further the lie.

True. But it's the old "honor among thieves" analogy that should apply here.

[Richard Tracy]

Neils right,.. sometimes dealers have no idea what they are selling,...and are simply going off

what the manufacturers are telling them... added of course, to the latest 'catch phrase' of the day,..

... 7750b1 - 1:1 ect, ect ect... and don't even get me started on sizes...

Pug is also right however, not so much for the experienced members here,.. but the nameless masses who

never post, only use the forum like a quick drive through, scan the sales hype,...and buy, buy, buy,..

I wonder however if these dealers will change their website-posted sales slogans for our sake, since much of their

business may not come directly from the boards....? Will they simply say to us,...'psssst,.. hey, this is for

your ears only,..."

[Dani]

Good thing of Puggy to set this issue on the tabel.

I have many so called shaphire crystal watches that scratch like plastik.

[Craytonic]

Anothing to add to the list:

1) State customs policy & what will happen if the watch is confiscated/never delivered & an acceptible time frame (i.e. a month) for the watch to be considered "lost"

2) State whether or not a tracking number will be provided, and an acceptable time frame for that number to be provided (i.e. one week)

3) State whether or not the watch is in stock

These things should be clearly stated in the sales thread for each watch or on each website listing.

I think many dealers are clear about most of these points, but there are one or two that need to disclose these facts - if they were known upfront it would clear up a lot of issues.

[Guest TTK]

I have many so called shaphire crystal watches

Ahh.....but thatsh only becaushe you bought the Jamesh Bond watches......shurley no mishtake there.....

[nonskeder]

True. But it's the old "honor among thieves" analogy that should apply here.

@By-Tor: There is no honor among thieves. If they will lie to person X they will lie to person Y. You either tell lies or you don't. Selective truth telling is part and parcel of the "way it is" in life as we know it. From buying a car to job interview the art of the lie is alive and well and salesmanship will thrive into oblivion. This particular hobby is fraught will deception.

We try and buy the "perfect" lie. If that is not good enough we send it off to RBJ, The Zigmeister, or Palp to make the original lie a even better example of the the "perfect" lie. To expect the dealers to tell the truth is like waiting for the tooth fairy to leave the perfect whatever under your pillow. The fact is this whole deal is a lie or deception if lie sears you conscience. From front to back it is FAKE. To expect the truth from all this is a exercise in futility.

[Chronus]

I never really took much notice of that--so even the newest Eta Subs, for instance, don't utilize real Eta movements? The crystal is only glass--I'm curious as to how to truly tell the difference; I thought water would bead up like a freshly waxed car on sapphire, but on glass it wouldn't? Hmmm...

--snip--

So is it true that my watches (SMP, Sub, etc.) have sapphire (regardless of how, or which lab made it), or are they simple glass/ mineral-glass?

I have a sapphire crystal tester and test all of mine, using a genuine as a control so I can calibrate it properly. Any that fail get returned. I think the only one that failed was a PAM127 with the new working swan neck movement.

[Watchmeister]

Do you really think gen items are that much better when they advertise? Does Breguet or Patek advertise that their watches have a tendency to break down more often than Seiko? Or that it will cost you $1,000 to walk in the door of the AD for any repair no matter how modest? And if you own them you know this is true. If you only bought from "truthful" people under the aforementioned definition you would be living in a shack which you built out of sticks and eating berries.

I love this thread. It comes up every few months. Perhaps it would have some effect if we on the forum were the only buyers or we were such a large portion of the demand that they had to listen. And I take Neil's point, half the time dealers are taking the factory description. Unlike many here, I am satified with the status quo and focus more on having honest relationships with the dealers themselves who are trustworthy. And lest you forget the unwashed masses who believe all this stuff are subsidizing our habit. Someone has to overpay for stuff. You won't if you do your homework. I say this in jest but there is some truth to this.

[Pugwash]

Do you really think gen items are that much better when they advertise?

You're missing the point. There's gentle omission of facts on one hand and blatant lying on the other.

[rbj69]

LMAO , here all along i thought u guys bought the 1:1 bullshiat

i have only seen one 1:1 watch and that is called genuine , now i have seen some lately coming out that r much closer to 1:1 but always there is something to be found that iritates the [censored] out of me and others

oh well at least we have some that we can live with and still make us come back for more HUH?

very ballsy and good topic MR. Puggy

joe

[gioarmani]

I have a sapphire crystal tester and test all of mine, using a genuine as a control so I can calibrate it properly. Any that fail get returned. I think the only one that failed was a PAM127 with the new working swan neck movement.

Is that equipment an expensive complication, or just a simple device like a jeweler's hand-held diamond-tester?

[Chronus]

@Chief

I would say that your choice of words is perfect: "Irony"

----description snipped---

An american explaining irony. Now that's ironic.

An aside, just a joke, The British perception of Americans etc... don't take offense!