Is it just me...

[automatico]

 

...or are the genuine Rolex forum posters getting nuttier?

 

I have been reading mainstream Rolex forums since back when 'dial-up' AOL was all we had and Amazon sold only books.  There were two or maybe three good forums back then and everyone was 'calm, cool, and collected,' but now it seems every other post is an "Is it real?" post.  Even when the watches have been purchased from trusted dealers or secondhand watches from an AD, they are still suspicious.

It seems that no one trusts anyone anymore and aftermarket parts are a no-no, even if many OEM parts are no longer available.

 

Something else:

On most vintage Rolex forums now, anything not 'OEM' is either Taboo!, Fake!, or Dangerous! to the health of the watch in question.  Clark crystals for instance, I have used quite a few with no problems and this also goes for crystals from GS, ST and a few others.  Not to mention using anything as 'dangerous' as an aftmkt mainspring, even if it is made by the same company that supplied mainsprings to Rolex for years.  I have used maybe 50 or 60 with no problems at all.  I've also read where posters choose to send a steel 1960s manual wind no date Oyster type watch (for example) to Rolex Service in Geneva just so they can be assured of getting 'genuine' parts because USA Authorized Service Centers will not work on it...a watch that might  sell for $2500 after  the very high $$ service.  

 

Is this 'hobby' going crazy or what?   

[Jimster]

Agreed! I've used Superior Rolex parts for years without issue.  Same thing for Seiko forums.  If it's not Gen Seiko your watch is not gen unless it has Seiko parts.  Good luck telling the difference since no one can tell when they open the watch to service. 

[freddy333]

On 8/9/2023 at 9:00 PM, automatico said:

...or are the genuine Rolex forum posters getting nuttier?

Is this 'hobby' going crazy or what?   

I think your observation is spot-on & I blame the recent crop of 'clone' movements & reps. Back when AOL was dial-up, any serious collector or watchmaker could easily ID a rep or franken. But, today, as I have discovered myself, it is often VERY difficult for all but a sainted few elder collectors to declare, with any confidence, the authenticity of a gen watch without complete disassembly. & even then..........

[JSebWC]

Its like taking your vehicle back to the dealer to have the battery replaced , instead of buying one from auto zone.....same same but somehow different.   but to some it makes all the difference.     I can understand this with high end pieces, but  I dont think every  DJ will be a highly desired collectable.  

[automatico]

"I blame the recent crop of 'clone' movements & reps."

 

Me too.  

I would like to know approximately how many 'high end' replicas have been sold in the past 5 years.  Many of them probably purchased by people who did not consider buying a replica until the supply of genuine watches dried up, causing long waiting lists and high prices.

 

"I can understand this with high end pieces, but I don't think every DJ will be a highly desired collectable."

 

I am afraid you are right. 

Afraid because just about all I have left are a few AK and 1600 type DJ after selling anything that is worth high $$ today way too early.

I am not alone in this because I hear the same sad song fairly often now.

 

Otoh...

I remember back when you could buy or trade into watches for $20 to $30 that are selling for $200 to $300 today.  We called them 'casket watches' back then because you were usually stuck with them and all you could do is put in a note in your will for someone throw them in your casket. 

It was not funny back then, but it's funny now.

Why?

Because I bought a lot of casket watches.

 

Can replicas be considered casket watches?

It probably depends on where you are headed.   

 

[JoeyB]

It is very true, and very much up to what the individual wants. Like cars, keeping a car all original right down to the markings on bolts will get you a 'Bloomington Gold' certificate for your vintage Corvette. That makes it more valuable but only to someone who will pay the price. The latest 'craze' is doing 'resto-rod'.  That is taking a 'muscle car' and running a new chassis under it with all the advances of 2023. The early Corvettes, C1, never had disc brakes or independent rear end, or overdrive transmissions, and only some had mechanical fuel injection. Now you can have the look of the classic with the operation of a new car.  And easily twice or more horse power.  Back in the 1960s those with that mechanical fuel injection took them off and put on a Holley carburetor. Today in a restored car the F.I.  are worth a mint. And they are getting big bucks for the resto-rods as well. 

 

I came to replica watches because I can't justify in my mind the price of a genuine Rolex. Back then in the mid 1980s a gen Sub could be purchased from a Rolex Dealer for about $600.  Hind sight is a grand thing.  I should'a bought a dozen! But I was too cheap to spend that much back then. Finding this and other replica sites got me what I wanted, the look of the vintage Rolex with the 'resto-rod' movement, at the price I found reasonable. And there is the safety issue as well. Wearing a $5,000 or more watch will attract thieves. Wearing a $60,000 or much more 6542 or 6204 genuine would not only be dangerous, but foolish as well.  Several years ago someone broke into my hotel room to steal the rep 16710 I had been wearing, not knowing it was a rep. I hope his fence laughed at him. I knew a guy  who owned a pawn shop that took in  a ceramic GMT he thought was a gen, and paid out at pawn shop rates, but still way more than it's worth. He cheated someone else getting rid of it. I built my replicas to please my eye, not to impress others or try to make a profit cheating someone. But that is just me, everyone should make their own decisions.  

[automatico]

Example of a 'casket watch'...

Very low mileage stainless steel Wyler manual wind with slow set date from the 1970s in original condition.

 

'Front loader' case with the acrylic crystal clamped on the case by the bezel same as vintage Rolex.

The case back appears to be removable.  It might be...but not without doing a lot  of damage.

 

Wyler cal WH234/ETA 2752 with Wyler 'Incaflex' shock system.

From the looks of it, the movement has never been apart and it still runs fine.  The crystal is cracked and that was the only damage.

 

I bought this watch March 19, 1994 for $10. 

With a new crystal, c/o and a $10 strap, it will probably sell for $125 to $150 now.

Total cost to me would be around $25 or $35...c/o is free.

 

Imho, watches similar to this are about as good as it gets if you want a (relatively) low cost, high quality vintage knock around watch without automatic watch hassles.

Wind it every day and wear it when you want to.  A no date watch would probably be better if you do not like slow set dates.  

I usually don't set the date, can't see it anyway.   

 

Wyler and the revolutionary Incaflex system - Part 1 | Watchonista

 

The comeback of Wyler and the Incaflex: collector’s models - Part 2 | Watchonista

[Ronin]

100% agree.  Outside of watches, this is why I am a huge "Right To Repair" guy too.

 

The notion that ONLY a ROLEX (Sleeved) Acrylic Tropic 19, 116, etc... is any better than a Clark or Sternkruz is ridiculous.  The first time you whack a door jamb it doesn't matter.  I would rather have NEW Clark than a 50yr old NOS possibly brittle Rolex part.

 

I have used two Clark Mainsprings (1570 & 3135) and they are absolutely perfect.  Both watches running COSC with them.

 

------ Side Note-----

 

I was about to purchase a GEN 6538 from a "collector".  The Radium hands were simply gross.  It was beyond Patina and was flat out DAMAGE!  When I said  "I plan on wearing this watch, and these hands GOT TO GO, original or not, I plan on replacing them"  --- the guy refused to to sell me the watch!  No joke!  The thought of me replacing original trashed radium hands from 1958 was some sort of blasphemous act.  The watch was simply unwearable as it sat. 

 

 

 

[freddy333]

On 8/20/2023 at 6:35 PM, Ronin said:

The notion that ONLY a ROLEX (Sleeved) Acrylic Tropic 19, 116, etc... is any better than a Clark or Sternkruz is ridiculous. 

 

In general, I agree. However, critics will point out that there IS a slight difference in the appearance of OEM Rolex crystals vs Clark's or any of the better aftermarket replacements.  Many years ago, there were 2 or 3 threads (1 from me) comparing OEM Rolex versus some of these others & the difference in clarity & the way the lens refracts the light are apparent. Whether the apparent optical variations matter more than a crystal's water-tightness is up to the viewer.

Unfortunately, I am unable to locate any of the threads I was referring to, but have a look at Dwelling on the Appearance of the Sea and Lot 159 vs The DW.

[automatico]

The notion that ONLY a ROLEX (Sleeved) Acrylic Tropic 19, 116, etc... is any better than a Clark or Sternkruz is ridiculous. 

 

In general, I agree.

Me too, I'm about 90% with Ronin.

 

Something I have always wondered is who made/makes earlier and current 'genuine' Rolex crystals.  Rlx most likely did not make them back in the 4 digit era and I seriously doubt they make them now, especially since they no longer sell watches with acrylic crystals (afaik).  I never have seen who the makers were/are now, not even on the 'Rlx forum internut'.

 

I have had good luck with GS, Sternkreuz, Clark, and ST aftmkt crystals.  

Btw, Otto Frei has a few different sizes of GS crystals for Rlx 5512/13 that are good for getting around inner bezels that do not fit properly...as long as the case neck is oem spec.

Rlx made a 'bezel stretcher' for expanding bezels and another tool for shrinking them but they sell for high $$ now.  Besides that, on dive type watches, if the bezel is too tight on the crystal and you expand it, the rotating bezel may be too tight on the bezel and not turn freely etc. etc.

 

Generic Crystals to Fit Rolex® (ofrei.com)

[Ronin]

I thought I Sternkruz was Rolex's OEM back in the day... I think I read that HERE on RWG in the The Zigmeister Era...

 

2 hours ago, automatico said:

 

Rlx made a 'bezel stretcher' for expanding bezels and another tool for shrinking them but they sell for high $$ now.  Besides that, on dive type watches, if the bezel is too tight on the crystal and you expand it, the rotating bezel may be too tight on the bezel and not turn freely etc. etc.

 

 

Woah! Just learned something.  I thought my AD's watchmaker was crazy when he mentioned a 'bezel stretcher' when I was having issues with a GEN 14060.  So, the fact I have a very hard to turn bezel on my Gen Sub is not unheard of and Rolex has/had a solution for this?  Is there any DIY improving my tight bezel.  I honestly thought it was just dead skin and gunk under the bezel.

[freddy333]

7 hours ago, automatico said:

Rlx most likely did not make them back in the 4 digit era.......I have had good luck with GS, Sternkreuz, Clark, and ST aftmkt crystals.

Correct, but with an asterisk.
As I recall, vintage Rolex crystals were made for them by GS, but these were manufactured to Rolex specifications, which differed from GS' standard lines.

[Ronin]

That makes sense. However if I had to guess, and to your point on “clarity”— they probably underwent additional polishing and buffing. After a month on the wrist, would it really matter? Perhaps, if the underside/dial side maintains this uptick in polishing. 

But from an economics perspective. $12, $20 vs $300 is not a wise investment for something that will be fouled by the door jamb, underside of your desk, or MacBook. 🤣

[madasboot]

In a vintage rlx gtg, I saw a guy with a 6538 and got a closer look and this guy turns and comes by.

A couple of glances to the watch and a chat, and he tells me he is sporting an aged vietnamese replica like most of the attendees given the genuines are in safes.

fair…

 

[freddy333]

9 hours ago, madasboot said:

In a vintage rlx gtg, I saw a guy with a 6538 and got a closer look and this guy turns and comes by.
he tells me he is sporting an aged vietnamese replica like most of the attendees given the genuines are in safes.

In my experience, no owner of a gen 65xx Sub would wear (or admit to wearing) a rep/franken. These guys just wear a modern Sub or something else. It is sort of like expecting guys with rare Ferraris to be driving around town in Pontiac Fiero 'Ferrari' conversions. Not saying it did not happen, but none of the rare gen watch (or car) owners I know would ever do it.

[Big L v2]

Hey guys, is Zigmeister still around?

[altesporsche]

On 8/10/2023 at 9:00 AM, automatico said:

 

...or are the genuine Rolex forum posters getting nuttier?

 

I have been reading mainstream Rolex forums since back when 'dial-up' AOL was all we had and Amazon sold only books.  There were two or maybe three good forums back then and everyone was 'calm, cool, and collected,' but now it seems every other post is an "Is it real?" post.  Even when the watches have been purchased from trusted dealers or secondhand watches from an AD, they are still suspicious.

It seems that no one trusts anyone anymore and aftermarket parts are a no-no, even if many OEM parts are no longer available.

 

Something else:

On most vintage Rolex forums now, anything not 'OEM' is either Taboo!, Fake!, or Dangerous! to the health of the watch in question.  Clark crystals for instance, I have used quite a few with no problems and this also goes for crystals from GS, ST and a few others.  Not to mention using anything as 'dangerous' as an aftmkt mainspring, even if it is made by the same company that supplied mainsprings to Rolex for years.  I have used maybe 50 or 60 with no problems at all.  I've also read where posters choose to send a steel 1960s manual wind no date Oyster type watch (for example) to Rolex Service in Geneva just so they can be assured of getting 'genuine' parts because USA Authorized Service Centers will not work on it...a watch that might  sell for $2500 after  the very high $$ service.  

 

Is this 'hobby' going crazy or what?   

I think a lot of the problem with "New" Rolex collectors is that they haven't a clue. Its kind of like the used car buyers now, if anything at all even the slightest blemish the car is [censored] or immensely devalued and they badger you over it lol 

[freddy333]

2 hours ago, Big L v2 said:

Hey guys, is Zigmeister still around?

No.

[JoeyB]

3 hours ago, altesporsche said:

I think a lot of the problem with "New" Rolex collectors is that they haven't a clue. Its kind of like the used car buyers now, if anything at all even the slightest blemish the car is [censored] or immensely devalued and they badger you over it lol 

I think the problem is that the reps have gotten so very good.  I've seen pawn shops get taken for big bucks, a Rolex Dealer that had my own rep in his hands trying to sell me a new insert and service, and my rep going through the metal detectors without setting them off, just as gens do, at 3 different airports.  They've come a long way from the $25 knock-offs, as have the price.