The Time has Come to Say Something....

[Jawo]

I am very new to the rep world and purchased 3 watches from Joshua. I couldn't be more happy with them. I think for what I was getting, it was a fair deal. I am trying to absorb as much as I can regarding this issue of price fixing and product misrepresentation. Just to let you know, I have been a victim of Fullswiss.com taking me for $799 for a $20 shitass rep. Lesson learned and glad I found this board. I bought 3 reps for that, and couldn't believe the quality and value. Unfortunately price fixing might become a reality but is evident in every corner of the retail market. Look at Cable and Satellite service, utilities, alcohol and tobacco. Monopolies exist everywhere regarless if we are aware of them or not. I frankly do not care if price fixing occurs as long as I still percieve that the item that I am buying is of good value. Everyone is entitled to make a buck and that is what free enterprise is all about. In regards to the eta being misrepresented, I agree with everyone being [censored] about the matter. I am a member at the replica-watches-guide forum and Andrew/Joshua seemed to be very prefered as far as integrity and business dealings were concerned. I dealt with Josh and it was a great experience beginning to end. I think Andrew knows a mistake was made and is too concered about his business integrity to admit it. Businesses make mistakes, businesses mislead. It's a fact of the economy and retail. I deal with it everyday. I would just admit to the error, learn from it, and let it be a new day to prove your business integrity. People are willing to pay as long as they get what they are suppose to get.

[bigben]

I think Andrew knows a mistake was made and is too concered about his business integrity to admit it. Businesses make mistakes, businesses mislead. It's a fact of the economy and retail. I deal with it everyday. I would just admit to the error, learn from it, and let it be a new day to prove your business integrity. People are willing to pay as long as they get what they are suppose to get.

Well isn't that great? A mistake was made... it hasn't been fixed or addressed and yet you want to move on to a new day. Using your rationale we should let murderers and child molesters free because they make mistakes. The time to prove integrity has passed and the evidence weighs against the "cartel."

[Steve G]

A lot of good points...bottom line is tell the truth and represent the product accurately.

I personally haven't had any issues with Joshua, he being my main go to. We have what I feel as a honest business relationship. He's even sent out watches prior to me paying for them. Hell he's even discouraged me from buying some. It's a shame it's come to all this and maybe after 20 pages of comments some change will come....or at least until one of these dealers unveil the new IWC Cousteau....then this thread will dry up real fast as a lot of us will reach for our wallets.

[Tim]

Well isn't that great? A mistake was made... it hasn't been fixed or addressed and yet you want to move on to a new day. Using your rationale we should let murderers and child molesters free because they make mistakes. The time to prove integrity has passed and the evidence weighs against the "cartel."

Don't forget rape, genocide, and spitting on the sidewalk in Beijing. First a cheap watch movement, next thing you know truck bombs and beheadings. If only Saddam didn't wear badly faked Gucci sunglasses!

Can we not use extreme linkages in this thread? A bad watch run is not the same as the other things mentioned.

/Tim

[andreww]

Unfortunately, a ban doesn't work. Everyone here knows where they are. Since they opened their own websites I don't remember them ever posting new stuff here anyway.

Now a newbie comes along and hears about them and say's, "how do I contact them?" You're gonna say "Sorry........They're banned?"

As TTK say's, It's part of the culture.

Wouldn't it be nice if the culture changed?

Is it snowing in hell yet?

Guess what, for the short term you are right. In two months people will be saying "Andrew who?". Why would a newb ask for their address? A a newb wouldn't have a clue who they are anyway, and if they were to search the threads, they would find out what kind of thieves these guys actually are.

And why don't the "Dishonest 4" post here? What the [censored] can they say beyond "yeah, I did it". For all you guys that are trying to justify this, forget it. The evidence is damning, and you haven't even seen much of it. Should we let them off with a warning not to do it again? THEY HAVE BEEN WARNED!!! THEY DON"T GIVE A [censored] ABOUT YOU, ME, OR ANYBODY BUT THE DOLLARS YOU SEND THEM.

[bigben]

Don't forget rape, genocide, and spitting on the sidewalk in Beijing. First a cheap watch movement, next thing you know truck bombs and beheadings. If only Saddam didn't wear badly faked Gucci sunglasses!

Can we not use extreme linkages in this thread? A bad watch run is not the same as the other things mentioned.

/Tim

The severity of the crimes may not be equal but the analogy is still accurate. I said that using his rationale, no one should ever be punished for anything because people make mistakes.

[Jawo]

Well isn't that great? A mistake was made... it hasn't been fixed or addressed and yet you want to move on to a new day. Using your rationale we should let murderers and child molesters free because they make mistakes. The time to prove integrity has passed and the evidence weighs against the "cartel."

What do you want him to do? Shut down? Will that make you happy? I have bought things that have been misrepresented many times. I just expect the retailer to admit it and make it right. Just pick up a newspaper, and look at all the flyers and ads. A friggin lot of misrepresentation there. Hidden fees, product may not be exactly as illustrated, etc.. I do expect Andrew to admit to the mistake, but mistakes are made. Shameful, but learn from it and strive to maintain business intregrity. You don't think that car dealers misrepresent their pricing and products? They are still around and people still buy from them. Andrew, just admit you made a mistake, appologize, make it right and learn from it.

[bigben]

What do you want him to do? Shut down? Will that make you happy? I have bought things that have been misrepresented many times. I just expect the retailer to admit it and make it right. Just pick up a newspaper, and look at all the flyers and ads. A friggin lot of misrepresentation there. Hidden fees, product may not be exactly as illustrated, etc.. I do expect Andrew to admit to the mistake, but mistakes are made. Shameful, but learn from it and strive to maintain business intregrity. You don't think that car dealers misrepresent their pricing and products? They are still around and people still buy from them. Andrew, just admit you made a mistake, appologize, make it right and learn from it.

I may be new here... but you just joined today. In fact, I think it is awfully suspicious that you joined today and your only two posts are in defense of the dealers on this thread - methinks you may be a dealer in a users clothing.

[TeeJay]

Profit isn't a dirty word....but jacking your custoemrs money by lying to them is a dirty practice....!

@bricky.........

Of course they don't......they think it's just a storm in a teacup...and that if they keep their heads down....none of the [censored] will hit them....I've seen Josh scanning the forum a number of times today....( duh....you'd think he'd have the common sense to log in as 'invisible'.....)..!

BTW...you know that the Chinese eat everything but the table....!

If the posts over at RWG are anything to go by, it is a storm in a teacup, as when I did what I was the right thing about informing the people there what had been discovered, they were very much "Josh has always been fine with me, so I'll continue buying from him..."

It's crazy of these people to think that this won't eventually affect them. Well, I've done all I can do by making them aware of the situation, afterall, that's what these forums are for.

[Lyndonville]

One thing damit I wish we could stop doing is using Joshua, Andrew, and Angus when we are dealing with Chen, Lin, and Huang. When the hell did that ever start????? What, the stupid westerners feel more comfortable when dealing with Anglicanized names?

/Tim

I totally agree with this. I have many Asian born friends and business clients and they don't go by western names. That always seemed strange to me that any of them would use anything other than their given names. If your Chen, then so be, and that's how I will address you. I owe you that degree of respect.

Tim

[Jawo]

I may be new here... but you just joined today. In fact, I think it is awfully suspicious that you joined today and your only two posts are in defense of the dealers on this thread - methinks you may be a dealer in a users clothing.

No, not exactly. I am known as "purple" from the replica-watches-guide forum but new nevertheless. I have been in retail for 20 years and know that we are not all innocent of misrepresentation. I found this forum by a link crossreferencing to this thread. I know that many people have had great experiences with Andrew and Josh, but they have never received a 19 page thread commending them on their service. My whole point is that Andrew should admit his guilt and mistake, make it right and strive to do better business. The same goes for Josh and any other party involved.

[Richard Tracy]

I've never commented on the number of e-mails that I receive asking for product......from people who are simply fed up with the aspect of drop shipping......everything from receiving the wrong watch....wrong dial colour....faulty product....not just once but 2 or 3 times over...or people who get watches that are eusty inside....or completely dry..........suer J & A will swap it out......but that's still a load of hassle to go thru'......it shouldn't happen in teh first place......I sold approx 250+ Noobmariners since last year.......of those I've had back DOA or faulty items....approx 8-9 watches......all you have to di slook thru the reviews....you'll see plenty of people complaining about my communication.....but not a lot about my QC....!

I get a lot of criticism on all the boards.....usually about communication.....I don't see communication as all that important as long as people know the score....but one thing I never do is LIE......whether it's about product or services....in fact the opposite is the case...I usually tell people....'hey...don't look to me to hold your hand'.....you pay me your money.....you get EXACTLY what you ordered.....I handle EVERY watch.....I sell.......I see the Chinese dealers making the same claim....and I know it's patently untrue.....they're LYING again about the service they provide....which they actually don't.....they may handle some of the watches.....but with the volume of business they aren't handling them all....there is too much evidence to the contrary...it is yet another LIE..!

It's time the fora washed their faces.....smelt the coffee and did something......I'm not advocating a ban....that's not my decision......but accountability has to rest at the feet of someone.....!

Quite a few items about you Neil perplex me,

and I'm sure others,... I don't mean to bring anymore drama into this soap opera however you don't seem to be able to handle the business that you already have,...

Fact is, the numerous and glaring complaints, year after year, board after board regarding your lack of communications skills, strongly indicates that you take money for watches that you don't have, or may never get.

The time to receive some of your watches tells the tale,..

I have tested you, and received quick and assertive e-mails before my purchases where you flat out stated that you did

have watches in stock,.. but turns out that you didn't.

As I had to wait for nine months then ended up taking a subsitute, ever after you posted the watch in question more than once, here on this board. You also refuse to respond to my requests for a refund or status and never will, unless someone

posts their plight on the board, and even then, that is most times a just a delaying tactic, as I soon discovered.

Now I have defended you in the past, and have nothing personal against you,.. however I would like to know how

you plan on changing your modus operandi,.. as we will see an explosion of negative feedback that will bog down

our board for months....

[yodaddynukka]

the fact still remains that the deals still havent fixed their misrepresentations or apologized, for that matter. so what are we supposed to think of them? what is the next step?

No, not exactly. I am known as "purple" from the replica-watches-guide forum but new nevertheless. I have been in retail for 20 years and know that we are not all innocent of misrepresentation. I found this forum by a link crossreferencing to this thread. I know that many people have had great experiences with Andrew and Josh, but they have never received a 19 page thread commending them on their service. My whole point is that Andrew should admit his guilt and mistake, make it right and strive to do better business. The same goes for Josh and any other party involved.

Edited March 28, 2007 by yodaddynukka

[andreww]

@ Richard Tracy

Please do not try and jack the thread.

[zetterdawg]

Quite a few items about you Neil perplex me, and I'm sure others,... I don't mean to bring anymore drama into

this soap opera however you don't seem to be able to handle the business that you already have,... Fact is, the numerous and

glaring complaints, year after year, board after board regarding your lack of communications skills, strongly indicates that you take money for watches that you don't have, or may never get.

The time to receive some of your watches tells the tale,..

I have tested you, and received quick and assertive e-mails before my purchases where you flat out stated that you did

have watches in stock,.. but turns out that you didn't.

As I had to wait for nine months then ended up taking a subsitute, ever after you posted the watch in question more than once, here on this board. You also refuse to respond to my requests for a refund or status and never will, unless someone

posts their plight on the board, and even then, that is most times a just a delaying tactic, as I soon discovered.

Now I have defended you in the past, and have nothing personal against you,.. however I would like to know how

you plan on changing your modus operandi,.. as we will see an explosion of negative feedback that will bog down

our board for months....

OH NO YOU DINT!

a flanking manuever!!!!

[ryyannon]

I totally agree with this. I have many Asian born friends and business clients and they don't go by western names. That always seemed strange to me that any of them would use anything other than their given names. If your Chen, then so be, and that's how I will address you. I owe you that degree of respect.

Good post, K4TJP.

Or can I just call you 'K' for short?

[Jawo]

the fact still remains that the deals still havent fixed their misrepresentations or apologized, for that matter. so what are we supposed to think of them? what is the next step?

I agree with you. An apology should be made, and an attempt should be made to reconcile with the purchasers of this model. I have made mistakes before. But I am soon to admit to them and make it right.

[eddhead]

Josh, but they have never received a 19 page thread commending them on their service.

Maybe not, ,butI would venture to guess that the culmlative positive posts on the 4 members in question outwiegh the negative posts for the simple fact that for as long as I have been a member here, people have been reluctant to post negative reviews until the 'white lies thread'... These dealers have greatly benefited from member feedback and noobie referalls. That is why so many feel so strongly now. No one wants to be responsible for supplying a reference only to find the goods were not as represented.

[Lyndonville]

Good post, K4TJP.

Or can I just call you 'K' for short?

"Tim" is good. The K4TJP is an FCC license. I couldn't think of anything else. The 28277 I had before was my friggin' zip code. I'm not very imaginative.

[ryyannon]

No offense meant, Tim....but I couldn't resist the cheap shot.

As for Weird Scenes Inside the Goldmine, here's an excerpt from a post on RWG1 - which you may not visit under penalty of being treated like a jerk by certain members of this board.

I take no responsibility for its accuracy or veracity, but if it's true, it only goes to prove some issues that have been raised here.

Member LVSS wrote:

'Funny thing, tho....the "Perfect Clone" Sub I have been looking at on Josh's site was listed at $258 for some time, but now Josh has informed me via email that the Sub "PC" will not be available until late April or early March.....AND the price will be $450-$550.

That's quite a markup.'

http://www.replica-watches-guide.com/forum...mp;#entry379081

[Edge]

Well I think the time for procrastination and beating around the bush is done, we have had a lot of evidence against them and it's now time to act, not draw this out long enough that we lose interest and forget about it.

We should stop tooing and froing and come to a resolution, my suggestion is this:

RWG, RWI and TRC suspend their dealing privilidges on the boards for a set period of time, and make their section invisible for that time

RWI removes them from the 5 star dealers list

RWG, RWI and TRC stop all linking to their sites

All 3 boards enforce new guidelines as to the outline of a sales listing;

There must be detailed pictures of the front, back, sides, bracelet/strap and MOVEMENT

There must be a detailed and ACCURATE description of the watch for sale (like TTK uses)

We as a membership boycott them until they can PROVE to us that they have mended their ways

I would also suggest that as Andrew and Josh, have ALL the same watches at ALL the same prices, and ALL the same pictures, they become ONE dealing entity, as apposed to the 2 they are at the moment. Therefore calling for the removal of one of the sites, as it would be redundant.

When reinstated the 4 dealers should be watched closely for any indiscretions, and also MUST post all new watches on the forum, NOT JUST LINKING to a web page, the watch must be listed in the correct format or you will be punished.

Any further counts of misrepresentation/LYING should result in an outright ban and removal.

These are my thoughts, and though quite comprehensive are not difficult to follow and/or impliment.

Now is the time for action, strike while the iron is hot, and let's not waste time, the more time we waste the less momentum this will have and we will just end up forgetting about it and moving on.

Edge

[yodaddynukka]

good idea chris. but this wont work without the support from the admin team. they have not said anything pro or con about this matter. will the admin team be willing to do this?

[bigben]

good idea chris. but this wont work without the support from the admin team. they have not said anything pro or con about this matter. will the admin team be willing to do this?

If they don't implement the restrictions to remedy the problem then that will cause to wonder where their allegiance lies. I mean, why wouldn't they want to protect the user base? The only reason I think of would be that they are "in bed" with the dealers. Perhaps the dealers give a kickback or something to the board admins.

[andreww]

Chris, I agree with your punishment plan, with the exception of Angus. He certainly is not guilty of anything but being a party to the cartel. I think he should be given some kind of probationary sentence. Of course, there's nothing we can do about King.

[andreww]

If they don't implement the restrictions to remedy the problem then that will cause to wonder where their allegiance lies. I mean, why wouldn't they want to protect the user base? The only reason I think of would be that they are "in bed" with the dealers. Perhaps the dealers give a kickback or something to the board admins.

As I said at RWI, that would be the perception. IMO, site management has no option but to come down on these guys.