Pix Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Hi, not sure such pics are really necessary to express, err...feelings ?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigben Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 I posted this in another topic but I think this is better placed here - it was taken from the RWI topic on the same discussion. What the guys says about the price is the most impressing thing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have to say that as a relative newcomer to the Darkside, reading this thread has made me very unsure that I want to continue purchasing from any of the cartel members. Now, I have already known that the dropshippers are cause for some concern (because they don't even see the product they are selling), and for that reason I have gone with people like Ruby who will send me exact photos of the watch that will be shipped. There are good dealers out there... but I think the overwhelming weight of the evidence suggests that it is not a good idea to continue supporting the "Big 4". Start voting with your dollars and use the other dealers. I've heard others saying that they tolerate deliberate misrepresentations regarding the quality of goods because "this is an illegal business." So they continue to purchase to satisfy their habit and to appease the dealers. This is so irrational that I wonder if these people aren't just "shills" for the dealers - what if the people making these sorts of comments are in fact the dealers themselves? I wouldn't put it past dealers to have multiple user names. With multiple accounts, a dealer could make some comments on a thread like this without fear of having their comments disregarded as being self-serving. They may be the source of dissension in the ranks. At any rate, the real problem with the "I'll accept lying because this is illegal" argument is that there must be honor among thieves. Dealers depend (as all businesses do) on repeat business and word of mouth. If you make it known that you will stop referring people to them and that you will stop purchasing from them - they will have to react. Remember that these things come from China - $200 is a lot of money in China. In fact, $200 is $58 more THAN AN ENTIRE MONTH'S WAGES for the average CHINESE UNIVERSITY GRADUATE! Worse, the people involved with manufacturing these watches are not even university graduates! You are getting ripped off! (see here) Salary info: http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp...;story_id=12004 Valuation: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=1...G=Google+Search AVOID DROPSHIPPERS LIKE THE PLAGUE. You will note that that TTK, Pug, and various other senior members have said the same. Newcomers would be wise to heed their advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Overall this situation is about many issues.....from lying about specifications....to price fixing by choking supply....to elimination of competition......in the end....we have to accept one thing......we are primarily Occidentals with a Western capitalist outlook....the dealers in question are of Asian / Chinese origin.....they have a different attitude from us......for thousands of years since opening of the Silk Road by Marco Polo the practice of lying and cheating to 'gwailos' has been acceptable to the Chinese...( the Japanese don't have this mentality.....it is primarily Chinese )...it is still rampant to this day......I've lost count of the number of western companies who have set up subsidiary production plants...only to have thier patenetd products design and IP items....stolen by Chinese manf'rs.....who then pass them on to their plant #2....who undercut the original manf's.....and do so blithely without remorse.......it's in their nature....I see it here everyday.....whilst you are paying them money...they will promise you EVERYTHING you wish to hear....and then they will back pedal as soon as it all goes Pete Tong..........that is evidenced here today and on the other fora...by the lack of a creditable response from the parties involved......they want to bury their heads in the sand and let the dust storm blow over them and away......! I've never commented on the number of e-mails that I receive asking for product......from people who are simply fed up with the aspect of drop shipping......everything from receiving the wrong watch....wrong dial colour....faulty product....not just once but 2 or 3 times over...or people who get watches that are eusty inside....or completely dry..........suer J & A will swap it out......but that's still a load of hassle to go thru'......it shouldn't happen in teh first place......I sold approx 250+ Noobmariners since last year.......of those I've had back DOA or faulty items....approx 8-9 watches......all you have to di slook thru the reviews....you'll see plenty of people complaining about my communication.....but not a lot about my QC....! Those people ask if I can supply......my answer is usually no....simply because I don't compete with the Chinese dealers...but I always find it astonishing when I see posts such as J*** is GOD......A***** is SUPER TRUSTY.......yet I see very little in the way pf criticism....I know there are plenty of people who knock my door and ask for shelter from the storm......! I get a lot of criticism on all the boards.....usually about communication.....I don't see communication as all that important as long as people know the score....but one thing I never do is LIE......whether it's about product or services....in fact the opposite is the case...I usually tell people....'hey...don't look to me to hold your hand'.....you pay me your money.....you get EXACTLY what you ordered.....I handle EVERY watch.....I sell.......I see the Chinese dealers making the same claim....and I know it's patently untrue.....they're LYING again about the service they provide....which they actually don't.....they may handle some of the watches.....but with the volume of business they aren't handling them all....there is too much evidence to the contrary...it is yet another LIE..! It's time the fora washed their faces.....smelt the coffee and did something......I'm not advocating a ban....that's not my decision......but accountability has to rest at the feet of someone.....! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Very informative TTK, and well said. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Overall this situation is about many issues.....from lying about specifications....to price fixing by choking supply....to elimination of competition......in the end....we have to accept one thing......we are primarily Occidentals with a Western capitalist outlook....the dealers in question are of Asian / Chinese origin.....they have a different attitude from us......for thousands of years since opening of the Silk Road by Marco Polo the practice of lying and cheating to 'gwailos' has been acceptable to the Chinese...( the Japanese don't have this mentality.....it is primarily Chinese )...it is still rampant to this day..... I have purhased woodworking equipment for years from importers like Grizzly Machinery and manufacturers like Delta and Powermatic who import and produce in China and Taiwan and they report year in and year out that a corporate QC presence from the home office in the US is an absolutely necessary presence to insure production quality. The Asian producers believe quality control is the responsibility of the buyer, their responsibility is to cut every corner they can get away with to squeeze every buck out of every manufacturing minute. These western companies have long since stopped trying to change things and now simply accept the fact that a poised hammer cocked and ready to fall when someone steps out of line is the only way to insure adequete QC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyndonville Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Well! That was a lot to slog through. I didn't feel comfortable saying anything until I read the entire thread to ensure that none of my messages would be out of sequence. For the tidbit of information. This is from a message I got from Angus. I post it very hesitantly because I am not especially comfortable with the ethics of reposting a private message. But this speaks too much towards the current situation such that I feel compelled: -------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 00:55:17 +0800 From: "Pure Time" <puretime2005@gmail.com> To: [XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX] Subject: Re: Watches Dear Tim, /Tim I don't believe this personal email has any bearing on the subject. I would have been very uncomfortable posting this. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 I don't believe this personal email has any bearing on the subject. I would have been very uncomfortable posting this. Tim Actually....he is now uncomfortable with the post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omega1 Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 I don't believe this personal email has any bearing on the subject. I would have been very uncomfortable posting this. Tim On the contrary, I think that e-mail has EVERY bearing on the subject. The subject is the lying and misrepresentation that 4 dealers in question have been doing. Not only do you not know if you will get the item as described by the dealer, but now you don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyndonville Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 On the contrary, I think that e-mail has EVERY bearing on the subject. The subject is the lying and misrepresentation that 4 dealers in question have been doing. Not only do you not know if you will get the item as described by the dealer, but now you don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narikaa Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 I have purhased woodworking equipment for years from importers like Grizzly Machinery and manufacturers like Delta and Powermatic who import and produce in China and Taiwan and they report year in and year out that a corporate QC presence from the home office in the US is an absolutely necessary presence to insure production quality. The Asian producers believe quality control is the responsibility of the buyer, their responsibility is to cut every corner they can get away with to squeeze every buck out of every manufacturing minute. These western companies have long since stopped trying to change things and now simply accept the fact that a poised hammer cocked and ready to fall when someone steps out of line is the only way to insure adequete QC EXACTLY If you let them have money in any guise without your personal control you WILL get 'turked' absolutely,catagorically & without exception. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 I've never commented on the number of e-mails that I receive asking for product......from people who are simply fed up with the aspect of drop shipping......everything from receiving the wrong watch....wrong dial colour....faulty product....not just once but 2 or 3 times over...or people who get watches that are eusty inside....or completely dry..........suer J & A will swap it out......but that's still a load of hassle to go thru'......it shouldn't happen in teh first place......I sold approx 250+ Noobmariners since last year.......of those I've had back DOA or faulty items....approx 8-9 watches......all you have to di slook thru the reviews....you'll see plenty of people complaining about my communication.....but not a lot about my QC....! Were it not that you were such a Jock where I feared you'd bite my head off, I'd have ordered from you.... That, and I heard you wear kilts regimental style so I was never sure I wanted a watch from you after you touched it. /Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSlickAK Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 The Time has Come to Say Something.... ....Anything... A big factor for me participating here and at other Replica Watch Boards is to feel safe. High Flying Clive warned me about scam sites and I replied in confusion saying, "I received my watch, I didn't get scammed?" Little did I know... Panerai Replica - Luminor Titanium Pam00111 - Swan Neck Swiss [Panerai Luminor Marina Swan Neck Titanium Replica] $549.00US Panerai Luminor Marina Titanium Swiss Replica Watch Authentic Titanium Body Pam00111 Swiss ETA Unitas Swiss Movement with Swan Neck Regulator Manual Winding Movement Black Dial With Luminous Hands. Fully Functional Sub Dial at 9 O'Clock Authentic Brown Panerai Leather Band Anti-Reflective Sapphire Sapphire Crystal Glass See Through Sapphire Crystal Back Exact Weight to the Authentics Exact Dimension to the Authentics 44MM Case Diameter and 3.55MM Thick Water Resistant and Water Proof. Free Shipping on all Orders Worldwide The Pictures you see are of Actual Replica Watches taken at the Studio of Replicahause.com, You will get exactly what you see in our Pictures. ************************* I also thought I was getting bonus modification from regular dial to sandwich face dial. Movement is pure Asian with no swan neck regulator and Sapphire it surely is not. Cheap straps were $65 us each. How much did I get taken from Alicia at Replicahause? Well over $650 US. Will I ever shop with that Dealer again? No ******************************************** Now if some of the Dealers here are advertising that kind of stuff listed above to these Members. That's some pretty serious Scamming being done. Just wanted to let others know, that I haven't experienced that yet at RWG. But I did go through the headaches, outside of here. Hence I voted on the other thread. Honesty and what I research and read is my important concern. If it's not what it is, then don't advertise that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 On the contrary, I think that e-mail has EVERY bearing on the subject. The subject is the lying and misrepresentation that 4 dealers in question have been doing. Not only do you not know if you will get the item as described by the dealer, but now you don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Which was my thought process when I posted the message. I know that the ethics of posting a private message in a public forum is dicey, and at a minimum usually shows very bad taste. But in this case, it felt more like a smoking gun to me and I had a responsibility for disclosure. Since that Angus has sent me a message with a further explanation and now I honestly don't know what to believe. /Tim If the information is different to what you first posted, then it stands to reason that Angus lied in one of the messages. Doesn't matter which one, the fact is, either way, you were lied to, either as an outright lie, or an attempt of manipulation. Not the kind of conduct supposedly trustworthy people engage in... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Tim, did Angus send you a reply after you posted the message on the board? If so, why doesn't Angus take part in the discussion? and in previous thread, maybe way in the beginning, someone had commented that Josh was looking at it. Why doesn't he reply? By only having Andrew come under the guns is bad, it is really "almost" admitting guilt. That part I do not get....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bricky Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Tim, did Angus send you a reply after you posted the message on the board? If so, why doesn't Angus take part in the discussion? and in previous thread, maybe way in the beginning, someone had commented that Josh was looking at it. Why doesn't he reply? By only having Andrew come under the guns is bad, it is really "almost" admitting guilt. That part I do not get....... I'm also a bit puzzled.... where are the other dealers? Don't they care? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Tim, did Angus send you a reply after you posted the message on the board? If so, why doesn't Angus take part in the discussion? and in previous thread, maybe way in the beginning, someone had commented that Josh was looking at it. Why doesn't he reply? By only having Andrew come under the guns is bad, it is really "almost" admitting guilt. That part I do not get....... Yeah I got Angus' explanation message this morning and I asked the moderators what I should do. I really don't want to mess up anyone's livelihood and it appears that the private message I reposted might put Angus in a difficult position. Like I said, I really don't know what to think at this point. If the original message is true it reflects very poorly on the way business is being conducted. The original message has a ring of truth to it to me by the simple fact that the packages are being shipped from CN and yet the dealers are located in HK. How else could this work? If not Angus, then someone else. The "Makers" (I feel like I am dealing with the Architect from the Matrix!) must be using some sort of order consolidator because they are not going to fiddle with all this themselves. The truth of the situation is that probably these guys have setup a mutual friendship/business relationship with each other to assist in their respective businesses. Quite probably it could have been that Andrew and Josh made seperate arrangements for fulfillment of orders. And then Angus saw some of the orders flying around him while he is doing business. So Angus then volunteers that he will assist the other dealers and, I don't know--maybe for a piece of the action???? One big happy family, and hey--let's get together for dinner when you are in the area. (I'll fatten up a dog and you bring the tiger penis. Yummy!) So like I said I don't know what to think any longer. One thing damit I wish we could stop doing is using Joshua, Andrew, and Angus when we are dealing with Chen, Lin, and Huang. When the hell did that ever start????? What, the stupid westerners feel more comfortable when dealing with Anglicanized names? /Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 One thing damit I wish we could stop doing is using Joshua, Andrew, and Angus when we are dealing with Chen, Lin, and Huang. When the hell did that ever start????? What, the stupid westerners feel more comfortable when dealing with Anglicanized names? /Tim In most cases, yes. I can't even pronounce the name of my dealer, but I still trust them. It's like companies that outsource call centers to India, and the employees all use Anglicanized names... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 (edited) Profit isn't a dirty word....but jacking your custoemrs money by lying to them is a dirty practice....! @bricky.........I'm also a bit puzzled.... where are the other dealers? Don't they care? Of course they don't......they think it's just a storm in a teacup...and that if they keep their heads down....none of the [censored] will hit them....I've seen Josh scanning the forum a number of times today....( duh....you'd think he'd have the common sense to log in as 'invisible'.....)..! BTW...you know that the Chinese eat everything but the table....! Edited March 28, 2007 by TTK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonio Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 I think an important step would be to list the watches which these dealers are trying to sell exploitatively, and in big red text on every one of these forums exercise a boycott of them. The dealers will get the message the only way they can see it... but that is an extreme measure to be taken here. I have had nothing but good experiences with Joshua. All of the watches he has sent me run well, keep good time, and all work well so far *knock on wood*. Inside all of the watches are ETA if listed ETA, asian 21J if listed as such, etc... no lies. He has displayed to me nothing but pure kindness which I must forward to members visiting this thread. I don't know if it means much coming from me, Corgi, a dog of all things, but I can tell you that Joshua is a good dealer who is certainly trustworthy and kind. All of the dealers on this message board have had threads pop up accusing them of perpetrating a fraud in some way or another - with these four gentlemen, it's obvious something would come up, but in a much bigger fashion. Anyway... all I can say is that I can't way to get more clocks from my main man in chi-town, Josh, who has been a trusted partner throughout my voyage into the replica world. Corgi's got some good points. I've read 13-14 pages into this so far, and some on the other forum. I agree that we should all keep each other informed, and pressure the dealers to be honest. To be honest, so far I've ONLY bought watches from Joshua. But I like buying from him. His communication is great, answering my questions honestly. He knows my tastes and expectations, and has talked me out of a few watches. I've never been misinformed, all purchases have been as ordered. I've had two watches of the many that arrived with problems. My Bentley GT had a date issue, the dates wouldn't come into alignment, so he shipped me a replacement immediately, the two watches must have passed in the air. Had an AP that wouldn't wind. Sent it to him, he couldn't repeat the problem, so he sent it back. We thought maybe the rotor was not able to move against the caseback, so he send me another caseback free of charge. That didn't work, so I sent the watch back, he credited me in full, ate the shipping and I upgraded to a Steelfish which should be here tomorrow. As for the cartel, maybe it's just on this watch? I'm playing devil's advocate here, but perhaps these guys banded together and commissioned that watch just for themselves. I know nothing about that side of the industry, but do know that in some industries, particular parts or products are created for just a couple of sellers, leaving others out to create one for themselves. It creates an interest, and eventually similar products come out from other manufacturers. I love this open dialogue, and do think that a subforum would be a good idea. Talk about problems in a civil manner, and offer dealers a chance to also talk about it. If we all work together, there will be less problems and friendlier, more open transactions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 offer dealers a chance to also talk about it That's the problem...they won't talk about it....it's like a bad football game......all defense...defense.....! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratedzeus Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 The only language they will understand is a ban. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bricky Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 That's the problem...they won't talk about it....it's like a bad football game......all defense...defense.....! Seems so.... pretty sad IMO - and probably not the best idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 In most cases, yes. I can't even pronounce the name of my dealer, but I still trust them. It's like companies that outsource call centers to India, and the employees all use Anglicanized names... Yes, I am a network engineer by trade and when I ask a British accented tech support person how the weather is in Bangalore today and they answer sunny and nice, I promptly tell them that I am paying an arm and a leg for support and you need to kick me up to Tier 3 support which is always in the US. I will do many types of business with a global community but tech support from an American company that I am paying money to for support is not a business relationship that I will accept because they are being cheap b*stards exploting low cost labor. This is a global economy today and we should learn how to pronounce these names or else we are indeed stupid zenophobic westerners. /Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertk Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Unfortunately, a ban doesn't work. Everyone here knows where they are. Since they opened their own websites I don't remember them ever posting new stuff here anyway. Now a newbie comes along and hears about them and say's, "how do I contact them?" You're gonna say "Sorry........They're banned?" As TTK say's, It's part of the culture. Wouldn't it be nice if the culture changed? Is it snowing in hell yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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