Chronus Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Very interesting developments indeed. I highly commend both Rob and Namor for being willing to speak their minds about this issue. I have not done any business with joe but had not ruled it out of the realm of possibility due to his stellar rep. I personally won't be dealing with him in the future. Info like this does make one wonder. It's not the first time The Zigmeister brought up misgivings. There was a lot in the old RWG which, I think, went mostly ignored by many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJGladeRaider Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Flame away if you will, there is much more to it, and others who have had identical experiences as you have, some from EU also. RG I gotta flame - but not for you. I already cut lose with that flame a while back, on this exact same issue, but not this person. When a forum like this gets turned into such a circle-jerk, stroke the homeboy, fan club that people are afraid to post the truth, it isn't fair to anyone. In fact, it entirely defeats the reason for the forum's existence. I don't know Joe, or anything about Joe, but I have been reading the posts. If the Forum Admin gets to the point that they think something is awry, they are in a position to investigate it and deal with it - in whichever way is appropriate once they know what is going on. On the other hand, nobody has any reasonable expectation that anyone will do anything about an issue they keep silent about. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 You're absolutely right - but when other reputable, longtime members are talking about issues too - it's not important anymore whether the poster is a newbie or not... It's not important even from the beginning.. because the new members don;t stop to have rights because they are ...new... So I guess everyone is entitled to his opinion on a discourse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namor Posted May 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 It's not the first time Ziggy brought up misgivings. There was a lot in the old RWG which, I think, went mostly ignored by many. Yes, I feel very bad for that and I'm really sorry ! It's true, all this had to be said earlier - now it IS said. So everybody is warned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 I remember some of the misgivings were (some already mentioned), -blowing dust off the dial (some of which may have come from work carried out, I'm not sure) -repressing crystal (should be normal practice if a watch dial has been worked on, or serviced) -lubricating o-rings (another given when the watch is opened up) -re-alignment of date wheel (no info given on how this was done) I think they were some of the things, although some were happy to pay for it so I guess you do what you will with your money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namor Posted May 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 @Chronus Yes, that's right - everybody is responsible for his wallet. But all this here in RWG ? This is like you are in an professional Car-Forum discussing about complicated engine issues - and then taking your car to a guy who takes money for testing the pressure in your wheels... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005SUBMARINER Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 iv never been a fan of sending out my watches for mods ! iv learn to do this my self thanx to post from The Zigmeister & others on RWG .. i see no sence of spending $ 600 on a $200 rep .. maks no sence ! i think reps look fine from factory . yea a bezel insert update makes it a lil better but thats it man ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 We as Mods/Admins can only react if all of you let us know about open issues... we don't care if the member is newbie or not... especially if more than only one compains about the same... if you dislike posting in public just send a PM to one of the Admin team... so finaly we can post and let all of you know about a thing if we get several complains... We have also no further infos about RBJ than all of you have... all i can say is that first of all reading, reading & reading is the most important thing... so you know what could be possible and what not... some members still forget that we only buy reps... and in general all these watches here have an really great price-quality ratio... check outr the cheap gens with the same movements as our watches here... they often cost more than double what we pay here... I can say that i have seen Namors watch in real life... and that i personally wouldn't have paid that amount for the moddings... i also know the result after his own moddings and there are worlds between... i think the most important what Namor would like to say is that all members should try to do more themselfes... just get an cheap Asia-Version of the watch and use to do it yourself... Ziggy has lot of great manuals how all the work should be done... But as said we all know that it can be earned some money by doing the mods... i can understand RBJ-sight as businessman also... he get many many watches and have to do the moddings... means limited time per project... he's doing what he thinks is reasonable for the price he's asking... it's your choice to do business with him or not... because of that i think it's very important that all of you post positve and negative visions of business you have done here... in each cases... if it's about a dealing with RBJ, Ziggy, TTK, EL and so on... so all of us know what we get when we spent our money... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRT Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 As many of you may know, I have had at least 12 watches modded by Joe. He has never wronged me. All of his projects have been fantastic. This is in stark comparison with my prior dealings with Base. Joe has become a friend to me in the last year and I completely trust him. The one area that he has slipped on in the last couple of months has been his turn-around time and communication. No question about it...he has fallen way behind. That is easy to do when you accept too much work at one time. This is an economic mixed-blessing that ultimately will lead to a loss of future business. I got an email from him this week in which he stated that he is working on our watches and recovering from his illness. I believe both to be true...why would he lie to a friend? There is no way that you can please every one of your clients...no matter how good you are and how much you do to remedy the situation (I'm sure Rob will agree.) There are always at least two-sides to every story. I find it very surprising that Joe didn't offer to fix something that he allegedly messed-up on (i.e. crown guard nick.) I hope Joe replies to these threads soon- I have definitely not lost hope that my current projects will be completed...I like many others have a few watches that are waiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 -blowing dust off the dial (some of which may have come from work carried out, I'm not sure) Sorry but everyone who paid even 1$ for this is the least I can say 'not smart'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Tracy Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Weather it be emergency, illness, bad time management, or just a fear that makes it easier, to walk away from a pile of back work,... some of you need prepare for the possibility, that you may not be seeing your babies for a while,. or may even lose them all together.... Which is nothing compared to what he could lose in community, and a source of income.... which I why I find this whole thing so puzzling... I hope circumstances turn out for the best for the majority... I say again,...We need a fund for such things... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRT Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 We need a fund for such things... Oh please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 I remember some of the misgivings were (some already mentioned), -blowing dust off the dial (some of which may have come from work carried out, I'm not sure) -repressing crystal (should be normal practice if a watch dial has been worked on, or serviced) -lubricating o-rings (another given when the watch is opened up) -re-alignment of date wheel (no info given on how this was done) I think they were some of the things, although some were happy to pay for it so I guess you do what you will with your money. I can't believe I'm quoting myself, but the last comment is not about me, I have never had mods done... yet. And would look closer to home in the EU first. At the moment it's PAMs so finepics is the man for that. Movement servicing has to be The Zigmeister in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namor Posted May 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 I read many interesting posts, let me comment and add some facts: @2005SUBMARINER You're writing that you see no sense in spending so much money for moddings - nowadays I agree with you because I can do many things myself. But here is an interesting point: you also say, like others too, that most reps are just fine how they are. YES ! Absolutely correct ! Here some Rep facts: - Most Submariners are waterresistant enough to easily withstand a shower - so you pay Joe for watertesting but he doesn't has anything to do. Mine was clearly never in water before. After receiving it (he is always repeatedly telling you "no guarantee for watertesting results") you take a shower with your watch - the watch is fine and you think Joe greased it and changed the o-rings. - Most inserts nowadays are fitting the bezels fine. Some of them even snap in like genuine. The time is over when you had to sand them down and do more work to make them fit. And NO these inserts are definetely NOT expensive. Joe tells something different - but these inserts are mostly the same you can get in ebay for example. - realignement of crystal, yes makes sense. This is something that is done within 1 minute of time. - polishing. Polishing ? Oh, come on guys ! There is nothing to say about polishing and oiling. We had 1 billion posting how-to's about that. You know it's easy. You know it takes not more than 20 minutes. - click spring adjustement. This is something that makes sense - and it's done within 2 minutes. We have how-to's for that too. There are just 2 things which aren't that easy: CG milling and mirror-finish polishing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Tracy Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Oh please Trying to communicate something ? Gotta be more specific man... or have an alternative besides a grunt.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkerouac Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 I read many interesting posts, let me comment and add some facts: @2005SUBMARINER You're writing that you see no sense in spending so much money for moddings - nowadays I agree with you because I can do many things myself. But here is an interesting point: you also say, like others too, that most reps are just fine how they are. YES ! Absolutely correct ! Here some Rep facts: - Most Submariners are waterresistant enough to easily withstand a shower - so you pay Joe for watertesting but he doesn't has anything to do. Mine was clearly never in water before. After receiving it (he is always repeatedly telling you "no guarantee for watertesting results") you take a shower with your watch - the watch is fine and you think Joe greased it and changed the o-rings. - Most inserts nowadays are fitting the bezels fine. Some of them even snap in like genuine. The time is over when you had to sand them down and do more work to make them fit. And NO these inserts are definetely NOT expensive. Joe tells something different - but these inserts are mostly the same you can get in ebay for example. - realignement of crystal, yes makes sense. This is something that is done within 1 minute of time. - polishing. Polishing ? Oh, come on guys ! There is nothing to say about polishing and oiling. We had 1 billion posting how-to's about that. You know it's easy. You know it takes not more than 20 minutes. - click spring adjustement. This is something that makes sense - and it's done within 2 minutes. We have how-to's for that too. There are just 2 things which aren't that easy: CG milling and mirror-finish polishing. Reps for us are not unlike other fads over the centuries. Do you recall history lessons about the tulip craze in Holland? If I recall correctly, the introduction of certain new colors would cause a frenzy of reckless bidding. That's not unlike how some of us react when, for example, new improved Pan crowns came onto the market. Face it, some people would only consider you a serious collector if you jumped to get on the bandwagon. Accept the crown that came from the factory and your cred were suspect. The same might be said of misaligned bezels, although those can at least be corrected by the purchaser without an additional outlay. A wise man (or at least one who has profited mightily off of the rest of us) once said, "A rep is just a rep." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomasng Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Wow, another possible unfolding drama...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRT Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Trying to communicate something ? Gotta be more specific man... or have an alternative besides a grunt.. I'm communicating that this is a silly idea. Who wants to pay into an FDR-type of initiative when you're dealing with fake watches. This isn't (better not be) your lifes' earnings. No offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namor Posted May 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 (edited) Some more facts: Example 1: Did you ever had a genuine Submariner in Hands ? So why are you so happy when you receive your Sub from Joe and turn the bezel ? Let me tell you: I had several Genuines in my hands - the CN-Case Submariners are feeling and sounding completely off ! You are just happy because it feels solid and everyone tells you Joe is the man. Example 2: Did you send your Watch to Joe because it leaked ? No ? You just buy the whole package including watertesting, hm ? So what do you know really about your watch ? Most of the watches are resistant enough for a shower, he has to do nothing with them. Did you read the issues with my watch which I got from him ? It's very clear that he NEVER touched a drop of water to this watch - but i paid for watertesting ! Example 3: Did you really see the crown-guards of a genuine ? Obviously not. You couldn't - otherwise no one of you would be so pleased. The CGs Joe does are miles away from the real thing. Example 4: Did you had your watch in your hands before sending to Joe ? Or did you ordered it to be directly sent to him or should he purchase it for you ? Hey, listen. When I buy a watch - I see it's pictures first. I like it. I search for prices and ask my prefered dealers. When I receive it - the watch is ALWAYS MUCH MORE BEAUTIFUL than any pictures can show it. What I want to say: When you receive the watch from Joe - and never had it in your hands before - IT'S ABSOLUTELY NORMAL to be impressed ! You've never seen that thing live before ! It's not just about the faults on my watch - it's about useless stuff, about easy work for BIG prices. It's about work which is paid - but never done. It's about a hype which is just wrong. You are confident with your Sub ? Come on, I officially invite you to a beer and show you a genuine one. Of course a genuine is a genuine - but you will see for yourself quickly that all the things Joe is telling us "he is modelling the watch, sitting in front of a genuine..." is totally [censored]. A TW-Best Submariner for example has a completely different bezel spring-system and really sounds and feels like a genuine. The new Subs have really good CGs - right out the factory. SHOW ME SOME WATCHES from Joe with CGs like genuine. You think CGs like genuine aren't possible ? Why not ? Here is a picture of a genuine: I've done that work to 3 watches now - and many other members too - compare this picture with the one in my post i received from Joe. Edited May 14, 2006 by namor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Tracy Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 I'm communicating that this is a silly idea. Who wants to pay into an FDR-type of initiative when you're dealing with fake watches. This isn't (better not be) your lifes' earnings. No offense. One one hand you are telling us that "Joe is your Friend" while you stand up placing your hat clearly on one side..and on the other, that we are only dealing with 'fake' watches, easy come easy go...if you get ripped off.. Tuff Luck... If anything is silly, it's your conflicting hands... One of the functions of this board besides the friendship, which I can understand, is to give is a reasonable chance of not getting ripped off,.. especially from the inside out... It cannot do that, to any reasonable degree without full board support.... which is simply doing what you, yourself did,.. use a slice of savings on one watch to invest in full membership... Labeling this....an FDR inititive is also ..'Silly'.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tallguy83 Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 @Richard I am not on Joe's side here, but I think a fund for stuff like this is silly. We are a community, yes, but throwing money into a fund is not a solution. If anything, it invites more of these scammers. WIth a fun, they can get away with it knowing people will be taken care of. It simply opens up a box that we shouldn't be looking into. Remember the RWG watch? Who's going to run this thing? How can we be sure this fund is safe? How do you prevent people from taking advantage of it? Do you only let veterans to dip in? What makes them better than a newbie that's been screwed? The fact of the matter is we need to expose those who create problems within. Funds are not the solution. Namor did the right thing, and those who outed base on old RWG did the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighDef Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 This should be posted in RWI too if the Admin and the Mods will allow it. Joe is a moderator in RWI and I am sure he peep in sometime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Namor- Better late than never. Kudos to you for having the courage to step forward. I can't say I ever had work done by Joe but what I can say is that I asked Ziggy to do me a favor and do full mods on an MBW Comex. This is not a service he provides but I was eager and he has modded and serviced virtually every watch I own. Fortunately he was curious enough to give it a one-time go. Needless to say, his work was fabulous. I did post it on old RWG. What I didn't mention at the time was that the cost was a fraction (read more than 50% less (including all the parts)) of what Joe was asking. Since Ziggy was not offering the service I did not bring it up. But, for that reason, I stayed away. To the Membership as a whole- I do hope that others who have had a bad experience with anyone will post it. I do. We all have an obligation to either post on the forum or PM the mods. This forum is all about protecting its membership. If there is an occasional problem with a dealer or watchsmith, members should report that as well. That way one can weigh the good against the bad. If there is any sort of bad pattern emerging, we all have the obligation to inform the membership ASAP. The crap that Ziggy took on the old forum was ridiculous and unconscionable. At the time I felt Ziggy's postings were fair and accurate and was amazed as to what members would sink to. I know the mods will not let this happen here. I was just curious as to how many folks actually have watches with Joe. Is it a few or dozens? Unfortunately, I suspect it is the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slay Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 LOL 18 User(s) are reading this topic (0 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users) 18 Members: slay, kruzer00, veni12, swdivad, ahchard, Justboughtfake, spaghettiman, tallguy83, JJFlash, Sql_pl, 16520b, fkhill33, AMK000, Brian, nonskeder, sevomd, yodaddynukka, Dutchy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMK000 Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Hmmm , .......... what a story. @Namor: I must admid that you have a point .... and also that you have guts to flame a senior member like RBJ. But again if you are right , this is exactly what you have to do and there is nothing to be afraid of. It is not the number of post you have that makes you senior. It is your case and the maturity of your arguments that do. So if you think you are right , then keep going , right to the end. Question: Why you waited so long to bring this up ??? These things normaly come up within 3 to 5 months from the day they happen. @ RBJ: I think .... you need to defend yourself. BTW: I never did any mods to any of my watches. I only send them to a watchsmith when they brake. But again ... thats up to the individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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