All members, read this!

[TeeJay]

Ok TJ this is where you are getting side tracked, the reason for these forums is not to supply dealer information, that is but an added bonus which way back was almost denied.

We are primarily a replica discussion forum here to stop people getting ripped off by some of the sites out there, that is our mission statement and nothing else.

Ken

I don't mean to argue, but I think you're still very slightly missing my point. I quite agree, the forum's primary role is as a discussion forum to prevent people being ripped off. I'm totally with you on that point. The point which I was trying to make, is wether the information about who's good and who's not is in 'sticky' thread, 'collector galleries' or just a thread of discussion, once someone knows who is who, who to avoid and who to do business with, then they know, and that information becomes redundant to them. They may well learn something new the next time they check the forum, but that previous specific information, is no longer of benefit to them personally. This is the point I was trying to illustrate. It might have saved them money one day, but once they have their 'dealer of choice', that specific information won't continue to save them money, and that is why a subscription could be viewed as an unfair expense, as they would still be paying for the privelage of the information even after the information had served it's usefullness to them, and all the time they continue to pay a subscription, then from their perspective, they would only be paying for the privelage of posting and chatting with people, and any horological articles and facts which may or may not be posted, as the original information they found usefull and saved them money, the X is good, Y is Bad, Z ships garbage, they would still know, and still be acting upon, but would not need to re-read, hense why I said that the information becomes redundant...

I hope I've better clarrified the point I was trying to illustrate, and if not, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one

[eddhead]

Would it not be possible to arrange for a dealer to pass on a wholesale price to the VIP memeberships for a particular desired watch (ie: SFSO), whereby the purchase of those watches at cost from a dealer could provide enough margin so that it could incentivize new members to become VIP's to gain access to these 'special deals for VIP's', and at the same time provide a % of the sale price to RWG in the form of a donation?

Basically, what I'm suggesting is this:

RWG arranges with dealer(s) to provide a specific popular model for each month at the dealer's wholesale cost.

This reflects my belief that the dealers that profit from gaining referrals from this site should be part of the financial solution required to maintain it's existence. It's smart business for the dealers to recognize that a significant % of their business comes from RWG, and to find a way to contribute to it's continuation. This may take some hardballing on the part of the admins, with possible ultimatums to cut dealers from the website that aren't willing to play ball.

The watches are provided to VIP's at a price that is $20 above wholesale- with the $20 going to a 'voluntary' donation to RWG.

This assumes that the average retail cost of most watches, for example, is $50 above the wholesale price. At $30 less than the retail price, the incentive to upgrade to a VIP membership becomes more tangible.

This would incease the number of casual users who would sign up for the VIP, as they would recoup the cost of VIP membership in their first watch purchase. The value of being a VIP to a casual member is more clear.

This would also increase the revenue of the site, by offering another revenue stream other than VIP upgrade to supply funds for the site's maintenance.

Sorry it took so long for me to see this. Have been kind of busy.

@Mezz: While, I think you have some very creative thoughts with respect to bolstering the financial position of the site I think you have to remember that unlike some of the commercial sites that may have inspired your ideas, ours is a not for profit venture. As a result, revenue generating alternatives offered by the likes of NY Times, AOL, Salon.com etc.. may not be appropriate here. For this site to remain viable it is important for the adminstrative team be non-biased agnostic to providers, profit and influence.To me this implies providing as little adverstising as possible. For the same reason,we also need to be very carefull about adminstrators moving product.

A second point: given this is a non-commercial venture our reliance on membership donations is different than it might otherwise be because we lack external revenue sources (nevermind profit) to off-set the cost of delivery. I think people's expectations with respect to contributing on an "internet forum" should be guided accordingly.

I am not telling anyone they should or should not contribute. I understand everyone's circumstances are different... i mean let's face it, if it comes down to donating $50 here, or putting food on the table for your kids.. I mean there is no decision to be made. But I do think it is important for people to at least understand why the donations count.

[KB]

@TJ has anyone ever told you that you try to argue too hard?

Does a telephone book become redundant once you have rung the numbers you use once? No because you forget as do all our members, unless they bookmark all the sites and albums (not to mention all the updated site moves) then they will always need our info.

However thats not the point, if someone has just come here to find the dealers and then packs up and goes they are hardly a worthy community member anyway.

TJ you need to be very careful that your devil advocate stance doesn't in fact become an anti RWG one.

Ken

[mezzanine]

Sorry it took so long for me to see this. Have been kind of busy.

@Mezz: While, I think you have some very creative thoughts with respect to bolstering the financial position of the site I think you have to remember that unlike some of the commercial sites that may have inspired your ideas, ours is a not for profit venture. As a result, revenue generating alternatives offered by the likes of NY Times, AOL, Salon.com etc.. may not be appropriate here. For this site to remain viable it is important for the adminstrative team be non-biased agnostic to providers, profit and influence.To me this implies providing as little adverstising as possible. For the same reason,we also need to be very carefull about adminstrators moving product.

A second point: given this is a non-commercial venture our reliance on membership donations is different than it might otherwise be because we lack external revenue sources (nevermind profit) to off-set the cost of delivery. I think people's expectations with respect to contributing on an "internet forum" should be guided accordingly.

I am not telling anyone they should or should not contribute. I understand everyone's circumstances are different... i mean let's face it, if it comes down to donating $50 here, or putting food on the table for your kids.. I mean there is no decision to be made. But I do think it is important for people to at least understand why the donations count.

I hear you eddhead...the question I would ask is:

IF the current format of the board is not working, in terms of being able to self-sufficient using the present system, then there is going to have be some change to the way the board finances it's existence, or it will no longer be tenable as a website.

There are not a lot of ways that this can be done. Either the cost of the infrastructure has to be reduced, or there needs to be increased revenue.

I'm not technologically savvy enough to be able to offer any ideas regarding the possibility of reducing these costs without sacrificing the desired level of security. If this is an option for the admins, I'm sure they either have already investigated it, or will further investigate potential options.

If we accept that the security of the site requires the present level of infrastructure cost to provide the admins with the layer of protection necessary for maintaining a website of this nature, then that leaves us with the second alternative...generating increased revenue.

Personally, I don't believe that the current system is going to be able to keep the site going. It relies too much on volunteer donations. It has worked in the past, though. I would need a clearer picture of how the current conditions differ from the conditions that were present when the system was implemented. What changed between the economics of running the site a year ago that is different now.

This may have already been addressed- so I probably need to go back and look at what has already been said to get a better picture of the changing conditions that has brought the problem to a head the last couple of months. I believe that part of it may be the result of paypal shutting down the admins accounts, and thereby freezing the donations that had been made prior to the last couple of months.

If that's so, then it could be possible that the old system will work again if enough members re-up their donations.

However, that's not my impression. My impression is that it's more expensive to run the site than it was in the past.

If that's the case, then something different is going to have to be done. It may require the site to operate under a different set of parameters than it has in the past, if it's going to survive. That may mean some concessions will have to be made.

The possible concessions seem to center on either closing down the site to non-paying members, or finding a way to keep it open by changing the format of the membership system so as to incentivize users to join.

[TeeJay]

@TJ has anyone ever told you that you try to argue too hard?

Does a telephone book become redundant once you have rung the numbers you use once? No because you forget as do all our members, unless they bookmark all the sites and albums (not to mention all the updated site moves) then they will always need our info.

However thats not the point, if someone has just come here to find the dealers and then packs up and goes they are hardly a worthy community member anyway.

TJ you need to be very careful that your devil advocate stance doesn't in fact become an anti RWG one.

Ken

Sorry, but that's not really a comparable analogy. People aren't suddenly going to forget who the recommended dealers are if their names weren't openly available, most people who have used them will be on 'email terms' with them, so will also have their contact details on their own email listings.

How could my playing Devil's Advocate become an anti-RWG stance? I have posted absolutely nothing against the forum, and think it has an incredible community, so please don't try and suggest that my comments could be taken as 'anti-RWG', as I was merely pointing out some possible reasons why people may not feel the need to contribute. As Ry pointed out, look at the amount of views compared to the amount of comments. To me, that suggests that people are either scared to comment (for whatever reason), or simply don't care enough to. How many people have offered to pay the annual subscription fee monthly? With regards my own subscription, had some [censored] not given me a 'rubber cheque' for work done, I would have upgraded earlier in the day as promised previously. It really irritates me that thanks to someone else's actions, I have been unable to make good my promise, as that makes me look like a deadbeat, but I can assure you that once the funds do become available, I will be paying $50 a month every month towards the running of the forum for as long as I am able to do so. I am not trying to be antagonistic about this, and don't want there to be any bad blood over this, afterall, I've got quite the Christmas list which I'll need your services to fill, my only intentions on this thread have been to try and provide reasons why people have not been keen to subscribe, which, up till now, people have simply implied it is because people are too cheap to do so, when the case may well be, that, having made purchases, they simply might not find the dealer information usefull, and not see why they should have to pay a subscription just to discuss their existing watches. That's not intended to belittle or discredit the information given in any way, so apologies if it has been taken as such.

[pollux1]

Is my monthly membership automatically renewed?

[mezzanine]

I think it's important to recognize that everyone here is on the same side- that's one of the reasons why I hope that there can be a solution that maintains the positive, friendly atmosphere that the site has cultured over it's existence and has become known for.

To me, that's the most valuable aspect of the site, and I know that's true for most of the people that use the site, donating or non-donating members alike. That's the only atmosphere that I believe encourages new members to stick around, and see the value in helping the site to continue on.

There's no question that this has got to frustrating to the admins/mods. I think it's a matter of where best to channel energy. Instead of channeling energy towards the group of people who aren't donating, and causing fracture and an attitude of division to spread throughout the culture of the board, my personal choice is to try to channel my energy towards helping to brainstorm possible solutions.

I realize that my ideas are probably largely irrelevant or misguided. That's not why I'm taking the time to write them out, though. I'm aware that most of it is probably stuff that the admins/mods have covered long before I probably was even a member of the site.

The reason myself, and others too, are trying to work in that direction is precisely because it offers a way of trying to look at this problem that does not put the focus on trying to change the average behavior of message board users. Rather, it identifies and accepts that behavior, and seeks to change the system so as to be able to better reflect the realities of the mindset of the average forum user.

There are things you can control, and there are some things you can't really control. Complaining about the stuff you can't control...or even trying to change it, is not energy well spent, IMO.

The fact is that a significant % of forum users do not donate willingly to the maintenance of the site.

Debating the logic of whether that 'fact' is justified, in terms of whether those people are exploiting the services of others, is not really a step towards a solution, IMO. Even if it's deemed that they are not justified to continue to use the site without donating, where does that put us?

The admins shut down the site to non-paying users? I personally don't have a problem with that...but there are definite consequences to it. For one, members could only conceivably sell their used reps to other members...which represents a minority of the current market of buyers for used reps. Not only that, but one of the distinct values of becoming a VIP member is the ability to sell unwanted watches on the forum.

My personal opinion is that the same casual users of the site that are not currently paying for a membership would simply re-direct to other message boards that do not require that they pay. This is, of course, an acknowledgment of the psychology of those members, who by their very nature will seek the path of least resistance. It's a matter of investment.

I believe it's hard for rep enthusiasts to really understand the mindset of a non-enthusiast. The percentage of people who find this site, that go on to become the type of hard cores that post in this thread and who donate to keep the site going is proportionately small.

Say, 5% of the people who discover the site become actual rep collectors. The majority might use the site to find a single watch and then check back occasionally. The site, in the eyes of that type of user, does not warrant the type of commitment that is required to donate. If I'm not a huge fan of replica purses, but I go on the site to see where there's a good deal to find a purse for my girlfriend for christmas, the mindset I'm bringing to my participation in the site is not one of a commited member.

In order to generate that type of interest, it would require there to not be a free alternative elsewhere for the information I'm seeking, or there would need to be a tangibly perceived value for buying a membership- one that put the value of the membership in clear monetary terms that outlined why it is advantageous for a 'newb' to purchase a membership as a relatively disinterested buyer.

Other businesses generally achieve this by offering a discount off of the price of watches, if the user possesses a membership. For example, you buy a membership to get 15% off of your purchases from forum dealers.

[Admin]

Many interesting thoughts. I'll ad mine, as soon as I have time available. Busy times at work

[lanikai]

If I knew, I could probably bottle it and sell it, lanikai....

And yes, I can see how you might think that I was being critical of the people who've taken the time and trouble to offer their analyses and suggestions: my final comment was pretty ambiguous.

I was sort of shooting from the hip - and pretty badly at that - but in retrospect, I guess that I meant to say was not so much a criticism of the people posting here, whether I agree with their suggestions or not, as of the fact that we have to post about this problem at all...just like the last time and the time before that.

Because I often think visually, the 'over 1,500 views' (nearing 2,000, actually) makes me think of some sort of roadside emergency, with the drivers in other cars slowing down to get a better look at what's happening - without stopping to help out.

And knowing that the same exact thing is going to happen next month....

Like I say, the really shameful thing is that more or less the same people - along with a few new ones - respond to Admin's. call for help....while lines of anonymous 'observers' look on silently for a moment and then move on...

I honestly wonder what - if anything - goes on in their heads....

I have been overloaded with work and have not been around as much... but I agree with you 100%..

Human nature is (IMHO) that the general public are "takers" if they are given the opportunity ... when "non subscribing members" ask questions about their future "buy's" . we as a group answer with sound advise that saves them from scams and offers them the opportunity to make wise choices.. so again i voice my vote to allow new members a grace period to use this forum and then "offer' them the "choice" to SUBSCIBE at a nominal membership fee... how many reps have you bought and did not get what you thought you would .. well, we all pass that on .. which saves others $$$ ...

If new mwmbers plan on a "hit and run" then why do we (for lack of a better term) need their patronage ? .. a newpaper cost 50 cents a day in Hawaii... if people subscribe to "home delivery" they get it for about half the price ...

Yes, i am trying to "sell" this point .. but as you say without an alternative we will go on with the same members pulling the weight for the others who won't "help" out.... geez at least make it different degrees of memberships if anything..

[eddhead]

I hear you eddhead...the question I would ask is:

IF the current format of the board is not working, in terms of being able to self-sufficient using the present system, then there is going to have be some change to the way the board finances it's existence, or it will no longer be tenable as a website.

There are not a lot of ways that this can be done. Either the cost of the infrastructure has to be reduced, or there needs to be increased revenue.

I'm not technologically savvy enough to be able to offer any ideas regarding the possibility of reducing these costs without sacrificing the desired level of security. If this is an option for the admins, I'm sure they either have already investigated it, or will further investigate potential options.

If we accept that the security of the site requires the present level of infrastructure cost to provide the admins with the layer of protection necessary for maintaining a website of this nature, then that leaves us with the second alternative...generating increased revenue.

Personally, I don't believe that the current system is going to be able to keep the site going. It relies too much on volunteer donations. It has worked in the past, though. I would need a clearer picture of how the current conditions differ from the conditions that were present when the system was implemented. What changed between the economics of running the site a year ago that is different now.

This may have already been addressed- so I probably need to go back and look at what has already been said to get a better picture of the changing conditions that has brought the problem to a head the last couple of months. I believe that part of it may be the result of paypal shutting down the admins accounts, and thereby freezing the donations that had been made prior to the last couple of months.

If that's so, then it could be possible that the old system will work again if enough members re-up their donations.

However, that's not my impression. My impression is that it's more expensive to run the site than it was in the past.

If that's the case, then something different is going to have to be done. It may require the site to operate under a different set of parameters than it has in the past, if it's going to survive. That may mean some concessions will have to be made.

The possible concessions seem to center on either closing down the site to non-paying members, or finding a way to keep it open by changing the format of the membership system so as to incentivize users to join.

Sorry about not responding sooner, I have been overworked of late.

Honestly, I am not sure what the answer is. All I can say, is that for the reasons highlighted previously, member contributions in the form of VIP upgrades or donations are far more important to this site than they may otherwise be were we a commercial site reliant upon non-voluntary subscriptions and advertising.

No one (at least not me) is telling anyone who's financial situation does not support making monetary contributions that they should do so anway.. i am not presumptuous enough to suggest that all of us have the wearwithall for that or to understand our indivisdual financial responsiblities, priorities and family situations. But if you can do it and if it is finacially viable to do so, you really should. Member contributions are all that we have. We take an awful lot out of this place, it is only right to put some back in.