KB Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 @Carl, sorry if my wording seemed like a challenge to you it was not supposed to be as I know you have been a long term supporter of our forum. No what I was trying to get across was to point out that I truly do not believe anyone can meet the challenge you put before them, many can find cheaper hosting but it will never be as secure as what out Admin has set up. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 My continued support will be on the way as soon as i get home (away from this locked down terminal at work, no bay no pp no porn i am so lucky i can get this, and the loony bin is like a secret little stash!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 My bottom line is "no pay...no play"...I am seeing too many postings of non paying folk looking for a handout....looking for free advice and even a few folk making for sale posts in the non-sale fora 'cause they don't have membership. We have a lot of visitors here and a lot of good information available...and this information costs money. Its time they pay up. So many of these newbs land here after getting fried for $1000 "Swiss Grade A uno numero shiz nitty Rollie sub" purchases....the info presented here already saves them a LOT of money. I landed here early last year....liked what I saw...heard the monthly call for "donations" and of becoming a supporter and so I immediately pony'd up the money. I wish the other freeloaders would do the same. Not directed at tech personally, but just to point out, that these are precicely the kind of comments mentioned on page 1 which totally discourage people from donating. It makes people feel unnecessarily belittled and cheap simply because they do not pay funds. Lets be very clear about something here. This is not a subscription-only site like some forums are. People do not have to pay just to be a member or read the content. Therefore, the content is free for all to read, and comments like those above, do rather come across (intentionally or otherwise) as emotional blackmail to make people feel bad about not subscribing. Come friday, funds allowing, I will be donating $50. I will also donate $50 the month after that, and the month after that ad infinitum. These donations will be made, not because I personally feel I should donate that amount, but because Islam demands I make zakat (charitable donations) and it is not my place to question the will of Allah. Assalamu alaikum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tech Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Not directed at tech personally, but just to point out, that these are precicely the kind of comments mentioned on page 1 which totally discourage people from donating. It makes people feel unnecessarily belittled and cheap simply because they do not pay funds. Lets be very clear about something here. This is not a subscription-only site like some forums are. People do not have to pay just to be a member or read the content. Therefore, the content is free for all to read, and comments like those above, do rather come across (intentionally or otherwise) as emotional blackmail to make people feel bad about not subscribing. Come friday, funds allowing, I will be donating $50. I will also donate $50 the month after that, and the month after that ad infinitum. These donations will be made, not because I personally feel I should donate that amount, but because Islam demands I make zakat (charitable donations) and it is not my place to question the will of Allah. Assalamu alaikum To quote your "emotional blackmail"....yes, call it what you want....also, if the "shoe fits...then wear it" applies....dam skippy if I can lay a little guilt trip on the members that are feeding at the trough but not contributing....I enjoy the hell out of this site and I don't want it to go away. If EVERYONE did their part...than the call for donations wouldn't be necessary. Ramadan Kareem Alaikum massalam Also, as Islam "demands" charitable contributions to the needy...I guess that doesn't count as "emotional blackmail" ....only my posting does? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 DONE. Challenge regular members to match $10 or upgrade. I can do that. But I'm sickly these days, and out of the loop so please hang in there, Admin/guys. I'll be back just as soon as I can. P.S.: Liked "VIP" best, but oh well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viennawatch Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Donation made. (20 Euros) Once I find myself a job again, I will become a supporter! For now, leave my broke ass alone... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Come friday, funds allowing, I will be donating $50. I will also donate $50 the month after that, and the month after that ad infinitum. These donations will be made, not because I personally feel I should donate that amount, but because Islam demands I make zakat (charitable donations) and it is not my place to question the will of Allah. Assalamu alaikum Heh, that's funny, TeeJay. Had no idea. Roman Catholics are also enjoined to make charitable contributions (loosely translated as to use 1/3 of your salary, donate the other 1/3 to charity, and to save 1/3 for your future). But I don't do so because of that since religion is at a discount in the West. I do so because I sense a need, and if I can, I fill it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted October 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 1. The donation system seem to have shut down after the three first donations I'll have to look into this. 2. Let me address the hosting setup/cost a bit more. I've been running replica forums now for almost 6 years (6 years in amonth from now). When I started up, all I needed was a small, shared hosting accoun that you can get virtually anywhere from a $5-10. Now, as the site grew, the need for a more powerful solution came, so the site was moved to a VPS (Virtual private server). I guess it was about this time I got my first letter from GAF and the ISP threatened to shut us down, as the site was hosted on US servers. Well, for a while, I played cat and mouse with GAF. Move the site from server to server until I got tired of this and started looking into offshore hosting. This is now 2-3 years ago. Found a pretty good host and had the site with them for a while. The problem with offshore hosts are the quality. If you try offshore hosting in the far east, where the copyright laws are pretty much non existant (or nobody cares) the connection to the US and europe are no good at all. Even though we've had 100MB dedicated setup on servers based in Asia, we never were able to reach satisfying speeds for the members. Same thing with equipment, support, etc. Extremely variable. So it's one thing finding an offshore host, but finding a good one is not easy at all. So mostly because of these factors and the fact that RWG is a site with more than 20.000.000 hits each month, we need a large server to be able to handle all the DB requests and the things that creates what you see on your screen right now. To be honest, I would love to be able to find safe, secure and good hosting somewhere else, at a lower price, but so far, I have not been able to do that. I swore to myself a long time ago that the days where I was paying for a forum out of my own pocket was long gone, as I did that for a long time, in the begining, when the cost was manageable. But when I spend the number of hours that I do on the forum, I don't want to pay anything out of my own pocket at the ned of the month, when the bills are due. An ideal situation would of course be that I would be able to make a buck or two from this "business". Some months I've been able to withdraw small amounts from my PP account and spent it on a couple of beers or a good bottle of red wine. I have even received donations from people who emanded that their donations should go towards a good bottle of wine/cognac or something else to drink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephane Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 I have even received donations from people who emanded that their donations should go towards a good bottle of wine/cognac or something else to drink Well I would be delighted to offer my donation for a good red Bordeaux to you Admin. If this donation campaign covers the costs, please do get one ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajoesmith Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Admin, would it help bandwidth if some of the features were disabled. Disabling features that are not used often and are not vital for the running of the forum, e.g. radio, sudoku etc any others that are not vital. Also how about getting rid of the photo hosting and just getting members to use photobucket or something like that. Maybe someone could write a tutorial for posting photos using photobucket for those who dont know how? Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pix Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 P.S.: Liked "VIP" best, but oh well. Don't worry Mademoiselle V., you're still a VIP in my eyes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanjulio Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 signed up for six months.. -J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Don't worry Mademoiselle V., you're still a VIP in my eyes... And you're not only a VIP in my eyes, but still an awesome photographer of pieces I long to get, Pix! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Roman Catholics are also enjoined to make charitable contributions (loosely translated as to use 1/3 of your salary, donate the other 1/3 to charity, and to save 1/3 for your future). Aren't you being a bit rash here, Vickey? I believe it's traditionally ten percent of one's income - as in the Latin Decima, the Old English teogo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Aren't you being a bit rash here, Vickey? I believe it's traditionally ten percent of one's income - as in the Latin Decima, the Old English teogo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Now that we're beginning to think creatively here, what about the idea of a rep watch rummage sale, with the proceeds going to RWG? Meaning that, many members have tons of reps cluttering up the bottom of their underwear and sock drawers which they no longer wear or particularly even want (the reps, not the socks and underwear). If people were to drag them out and post them at an attractive price, it could be a great way of raising some liquidities for RWG (not excluding the odd bottle of good wine or spirits for the Admin.). Hmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 I would again voice my concerns over creating an 'adversarial' tone towards enlisting donations. Not because I would like to further [censored] off members who believe that it is necessary, but rather, because I feel it jeopardizes the long-term future of the site. Attempting to 'commoditize' information on the internet is a very difficult proposition. Not because there isn't a reasonable basis to suggest that non-paying users profit from the information without an understanding of the finances of the system they are benefitting from. Rather, this site has an unusual cost-structure the casual user is simply unaware of. Most internet users would react negatively to the notion that information is being 'commoditized' by administrators of a site, because the free sharing of information is the organic quality of the internet that everyone now instinctively believes will occur. They will view an attempt to 'force' donations as mis-guided, and an attitude that occurs out of the belief that users cannot find the information else-where. The reality is that someone who comes to this site credits themselves with having found a community of information that benefits their users as a collective. The flow of power is always from the members to the community on the internet- not from an 'elite' group of people to the end users- within a message board format. Attempting to change that 'flow' of perceived value will have negative consequences. Essentially, what you some of you are saying is that you 'own' the information that non-paying members are profitting from, and that you will 'take it away' if they do not contribute monetarily. Most new members contribute their time and effort before they contribute their money. You are unwittingly sabotaging the process by which new members *eventually* become donating members. If you attempt to negate the value of non-monetary contributions, you negate the real backbone and origin of value of any internet community. People perceive this attempt to commoditize information, and take it as an affront to their ability to research information. If I discover a website that has good stock tips through my own research, contribute to the stock information, and am then told that I 'owe' for the info I've 'discovered' freely- I am likely to take it as an affront to my ability to find such information on my own. I say this not to antagonize matters further, but to try to elaborate my feelings on how best to create an atmosphere that will encourage further donation from those that have not yet donated. That's the perspective I think some of you have lost. You're looking at this from veteran, already-donated member perspective. That's perspective is not going to benefit this site, in terms of getting 'new' donations from currently new members. You've lost touch with what it was like to not have the perspective on the site's finances that you do. This is an atypical internet site, because of it's need to host in a special, more secure manner. As a result, those that are unaware of this will not understand why their donation is required. Most forums are able to be self-sustaining off of google ad revenues. I am only outlining the exact process I've gone through in understanding why I need to donate. If you try to tell me I "better" donate, I simply won't. Members need to discover it on their own, openly and without fear of reprisal, in order to make that voluntary donation. It's the only atmosophere under which enlisting donations can be effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 You've lost touch with what it was like to not have the perspective on the site's finances that you do. Speaking personally, I never needed any particular perspective on the site's finances to feel that I should contribute to maintaining the forum's online existence. I mean, do you need to understand physics to feel compelled to start bailing once your boat is in danger of sinking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 You are an exception, then, ryannon, because I believe that the average user believes that a site should be able to finance it's own existence through advertising. That's the nature of the internet. It is important to understand the psychology of most internet forum members if you're going to find a way to change that psychology for an exceptional circumstance like this one. I help run a forum (RealGM) that uses exponentially more bandwidth than this site, but does not require outside financing because it is a typical internet forum that is run off of domestic servers that can be subsidized through google ads due to the cheap hosting costs. The average forum users experience and conception of the finances of online forums is much more in line with that type of cost-structure. This is the internet. It is based on the free sharing of information. Try to say that the information is a privlidge or commodity doled out selectively by those financing the site, and you run the risk of 'putting off' those users who have gone many years operating under a different premise of where the 'value' of an internet community comes from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted October 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Mezzanine, you are making some very valid and good points. That is also why I posted the reason why we need donations and as I have always said; donations and upgrades are volunteer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tech Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 I would again voice my concerns over creating an 'adversarial' tone towards enlisting donations. Not because I would like to further [censored] off members who believe that it is necessary, but rather, because I feel it jeopardizes the long-term future of the site. No one is forcing any donations....I put in my guilt-trip ridden $.02 cents that if you're benefiting from this site then you should contribute....otherwise it will go away. I typed that...not Admin. I really don't have that much force. No one is taking anything away from the non-paying members...but if the bills don't get paid than the bill collectors will take the information/site away. Internet ain't so much free anymore...is it? The internet is only free in that the viewer has to deal with the SPAM and adverts. I stated...no pay... no play in quotes...it is a play on words and I never intended for it to mean a "PAY/Subscription Site"...it simply meant that if you are here and benefiting from this site...than you should contribute. I am sure the ADMINs are tired of the monthly begging for alms. I haven't lost touch...and I am certainly no veteran around here....I landed here last year...liked what I saw and immediately did an annual membership. Yes this is an atypical site, and as the ADMIN has noted it is expensive to host and the current revenue being generated AIN'T paying the bills. And there is no reprisal nor Fear of Reprisal being doled out from what I have seen..... but what there WILL be is NO MORE RWG...or at least a SPAM FREE RWG... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 We can complain all we want to about people not donating, etc. but at the end of the day the sustainability of this forum will be based on coming up with an alternative payment system to replace what we had and/or siginificantly reducing the cost of the forum if possible. And yes I will donate again but I do hope more computer literate folks than I are trying to help Admin figure out a sustainable support system. Living from month to month cannot be fun for Thomas. In the long run either people voluntarily step up or I would see no other choice than to severely restrict usage by non-paying members. If this was a web-site for legal goods our costs would be a lot lower but it is not and they are not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordRasta Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Admin and I have talked and I can back his statements about the hosting issues. I work in this field and I can assure you my employer would shut this site down immediately but the porn sites are ok. Go figure. The only option is the offshore where they can care less but you will pay a lot more than say if you came to me. I have accounts on all the other rep forums but this one is the only one I donate to. Why? I don't know, it just feels like home here. We give our knowledge and advice freely but maybe it is time to limit access to the collectors to those who have a vested interest in this venture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted October 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 The donations system is now fully operational again and should update correctly as the donations are...um...donated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephane Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Wow, cool...sounds like you can get yourself a Bordeaux soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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