lanikai Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Stick and Stones May hurt my Bones... But Whips And Chains Excite Me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 a lot of things in life are FREE.. but we use this forum to gain an advantage on how we utilize our money, the knowledge here helps us do this... the Wall Street Journal does this.. is it Free ??? you subscribe and pay for advise and updates on commodities.. If you want free .. go to the Public Library for information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahchard Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 I agree with Lanikai to some extent... a lot of people come to the forum ask a few questions make purchases and leave. Who knows how many spies or whatever kind of people come to view what we post. Maybe if we started using the VIP section more ourselves... put more useful information and tips there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Maybe if we started using the VIP section more ourselves... put more useful information and tips there... Then maybe people who 'pass through' wouldn't see anything of value or relevence to them, might not want to pay a subscription fee just to see if there is anything 'inside' that they want to see, so they would move on, and that would mean less new members than before... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 and that would mean less new members than before... And why exactly would that be a bad thing? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 And why exactly would that be a bad thing? Ken How could it be a good thing? New people means new ideas and new contributions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Not at all, new people who want to become a part of the community are the type who contribute with knowledge and funds when needed. New people who are just here for a quick fix usually wont even post. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmilian Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Maybe there should be a VIP-area with a lot of good information AND a VIP-preview area with just a couple of post so that the new users could see what they get when upgrading ?, just an idea ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmilian Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Donation sent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Not at all, new people who want to become a part of the community are the type who contribute with knowledge and funds when needed. New people who are just here for a quick fix usually wont even post. Ken Absolutely so, but, the point I was illustrating, is that if people can't even see what the community has to offer (as with totally subscription only forums) then they are not likely to make a payment 'just to see if they like it'. Even adult 'subscription only' sites have a 'preview' section so a person can get an idea as to the content. I fully agree, some people do only come to ask 'who has the best sub?' and then vanish. I've had numerous PMs from people with zero post counts who asked where I got my SMPs, yet get no reply of thanks, nor see them then posting on the forums, so I appreciate that for those people, that's all they ever will do. That said, if people were to have to make subscriptions just to be able to view any information, then they're more likely to move on, and, as I said before, new people bring new ideas and other contributions, and people shouldn't be judged on the size of their financial contributions, as group closure is a very ugly thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbell6 Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Is it possible to have a trial membership that is free from say one to three months and then if the person doesn't become a paying member their access is cut off? This would give a person time to determine if they think the forum is of value. (I'm neither for or against forced subscription at this time, still weighing the positives and negatives of both. I find this discussion helpful). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 SUBSCRIBING MEMBERS[/font] These are my thought...instead of "Supporting" why not have "Subscribing" ... Guest are allowed X number of Log Ins.. then have the choice to "Subscribe" or not .... the subscription rate pays for the monthly bill and is not there for profit.. this rate could actually be lower than the suppoter rate... thus users who become members benefit from the information available and the same members that contribute monthly won't be asked annually. If the forum keeps growing as it has then there will come a day when our donations cannot meet the problem of the monthly usage fee. we are "Partners" in the suvival of this Forum... I would rather use that term .. because as members we are not bound to donate anything.. Again give people the choice and most will pass on any kind of "fee", or donation .. and subsribing does not have any hiearchy attached,if that bothers some then we are all Subscribers .. Are we about bragging our numbers ?? or are we going to step forward and come up with a solution that will benefit the whole ?? In the newsapaper industry .. profit is made by people and companies who buy AD space.. some can spend up to 20k a month .. this is how the paper makes it's "profit" .. the subscription fee is to pay for the printing of the Paper and circulation.. the AD's on the Forum does not even come close to these figures ... so you cannot compare AD space in other media industries... We need to look at a communal enviornment.. if there are those who think everyone should be "thought' of and treated as equals then the solution may be to have all "Partners" pay a subscription fee ... Grandfather the existing "supporters" and when that is expired they pay an annual subscription fee .. everyone pays the same .. that should be determined by how we fair making the numbers.. This suggestion is not to "lock' anyone out or be elitist .. but to stay current with the ever changing demands of the World... Semantics... are Semantics.. this is about keeping the forum available for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 I can understand why anyone is frustrated with non-donating members...but why not try to come up with some ways to make money for the site, instead of lament the reality of the circumstances? What could be done to get things on track? Maybe load the site up with advertising for non-donating members? Big ass flashy banners all over the place. I know that some sites have it where you get re-directed with almost every mouse click to a 'timed' advertisement, which stays on the screen for 15 seconds and then goes to the page the person is seeking out. I'd like to see the dealers have to contribute something for all the referrals that they get through the site. I presume there's already a structure in place that may require them to subsidize their inclusion on the forum...but maybe it's time to change the terms of that relationship. I'm throwing it out there, only to try to brainstorm. What if the admin was to start selling watches through the site, himself? Basically source a distributor in china, buy them wholesale, and sell them through the site for profit to be used to pay for the maintenance of the servers/hosts? I know it would be a lot of work for the admins...basically starting a small business through the site...but even if they were to be able to sell a dozen watches a month, with say, $50 a pop profit- they might be able to cover the lag in costs. Is there any way to use domestic/cheaper hosts? Maybe there is a technological possibility that hasn't been explored- an IP randomizer or some type of security software that could be implemented at source, that would allow for the use of a cheaper server? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archibald Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 We can complain all we want to about people not donating, etc. but at the end of the day the sustainability of this forum will be based on coming up with an alternative payment system to replace what we had and/or siginificantly reducing the cost of the forum if possible. And yes I will donate again but I do hope more computer literate folks than I are trying to help Admin figure out a sustainable support system. Living from month to month cannot be fun for Admin. In the long run either people voluntarily step up or I would see no other choice than to severely restrict usage by non-paying members. If this was a web-site for legal goods our costs would be a lot lower but it is not and they are not. I'm dealing with an issue a lot like this w/ a client, a small union that got in PR trouble w/ their membership because they moved their web site from free to fee. As they added more valuable info their usage went up and they were losing money on bandwidth and admin salary costs. They've had pretty good luck w/ a modified verson of what cable, cell phone, satellite radio, etc companies are moving toward. They had been getting a lot of [censored] for adding a pretty expensive all-inclusive website access fee to the members'dues (everyone was saying "why should I have to pay for that feature. I'll never use it!!), but found that the griping diminished and their revenues actually increased when they offered their members the opportunity to mix and match services. Instead of offering an all the info or none of the info proposition, they let folks pick only what they wanted access to--the RWG version would be something along the lines of "Bigger PM box costs $X, access to the trade section costs $X,access to The Zigmeister's stuff costs $X, more gallery space $X, etc--or all of it for less than the total a la carte price. Bettert to make five bucks from someone who won't pay 30 bucks to sell one or two reps. My first question was, "doesn't it cost a lot to keep track of what everyone is signed up for?" they said that that is largely automated so that they're costs didn't climb nearly as much as their revenue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 What if the admin was to start selling watches through the site, himself? Basically source a distributor in china, buy them wholesale, and sell them through the site for profit to be used to pay for the maintenance of the servers/hosts? Instinctively I feel the Admin team are wincing when they read our replies. I think they've pretty much settled what they feel comfortable in doing, which is what is in place now. Doesn't mean we can't air our views, of course, but just to say this above doesn't seem like a feasible idea...it's just uncomfortable on many levels. Let's not forget what happened over at RWI, either. Anyway, I honestly don't think we should charge just to join or after a certain number of views. This will only drive people away from RWG. We'll just have to dig harder into our pocketbooks, or I'm sorry if this sounds callous, shame those who haven't upgraded, to do so by appealing to their better angels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 Yeah, it would be difficult to implement a sales system through the forum that wouldn't end up causing more problems than it solved. If I had *any* technological expertise with the internet, I'd be brainstorming ways to use cheaper hosting services without giving up the anonymity that is necessary to provide security. Maybe 'taxing' the sales system, whereby any watch that is sold via the forum has a % that goes to the site...sorta like Ebay. I guess that's already in place with the VIP thing. I think this is the right way to go- trying to find new, creative ways to attack the problem. If I thought the pressuring of non-contributors would be very effective, I'd advocate it- I just don't see it being effective. Shutting down the site to non-members would limit the bandwidth cost, which would be effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 I can understand why anyone is frustrated with non-donating members...but why not try to come up with some ways to make money for the site, instead of lament the reality of the circumstances? What could be done to get things on track? Maybe load the site up with advertising for non-donating members? Big ass flashy banners all over the place. I know that some sites have it where you get re-directed with almost every mouse click to a 'timed' advertisement, which stays on the screen for 15 seconds and then goes to the page the person is seeking out. I'd like to see the dealers have to contribute something for all the referrals that they get through the site. I presume there's already a structure in place that may require them to subsidize their inclusion on the forum...but maybe it's time to change the terms of that relationship. I'm throwing it out there, only to try to brainstorm. What if the admin was to start selling watches through the site, himself? Basically source a distributor in china, buy them wholesale, and sell them through the site for profit to be used to pay for the maintenance of the servers/hosts? I know it would be a lot of work for the admins...basically starting a small business through the site...but even if they were to be able to sell a dozen watches a month, with say, $50 a pop profit- they might be able to cover the lag in costs. Is there any way to use domestic/cheaper hosts? Maybe there is a technological possibility that hasn't been explored- an IP randomizer or some type of security software that could be implemented at source, that would allow for the use of a cheaper server? M., .... I know your intentions are honourable but you need to know the in and outs of what it takes to get the watches out of the country,..it is not just putting it in a box and "mailing it" there is a lot more taxes involved in this part of the business than i will talk about on the forum ... admin .. would be exposing themselves to a lot more than you care to think .. think about the business your talking about .. but with members who are open minded and care I think the Forum will be OK.. we need to stay positive .. and most of all work together and not butt heads.... anyway .... more shall be revealed I guess.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 Instinctively I feel the Admin team are wincing when they read our replies. I think they've pretty much settled what they feel comfortable in doing, which is what is in place now. Doesn't mean we can't air our views, of course, but just to say this above doesn't seem like a feasible idea...it's just uncomfortable on many levels. Let's not forget what happened over at RWI, either. Anyway, I honestly don't think we should charge just to join or after a certain number of views. This will only drive people away from RWG. We'll just have to dig harder into our pocketbooks, or I'm sorry if this sounds callous, shame those who haven't upgraded, to do so by appealing to their better angels. I Honestly don't feel the word "charge" is what I am trying to suggest ... although bottom line is just that.. but a subscription .... a very nominal subsribing cost should not be construed as taking money from people but just to cover the "cost' of the site .. and in that respect the cost to all members would drop.. and if it "drives" people away .. maybe these people are not sincere about helping this forum to survive ... yes i will give again and probably again if need be .. but would it be "cold" to pay a subscription rate ??either you want to stay and participate or you just want to depend on all of us.. we all love this Forum and would do whatever it takes, but there will come a day when that is not feesible anymore .. and being a site in the "gray " area of dealing in legal goods or not.. well I just hope some solution can be found .. it must be very stressful to Admin and the rest of the team Respectfully,, Lanikai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 A lot of good responses- I posted this in another thread, but figured that it was more appropriate here: This is an interesting thread- and I think brings to light a lot of the issues that have been going on recently with the 'service' the site provides, and the subsequent relationship that bears to the the communication of value that information has to the dealers on the site. When I first saw the thread, I thought that this would be a good general topic for the members. That's my democratic impulse that values sharing information that is usually intrinsic to the culture of message board usefulness that is dominant on the internet. But it's not quite that simple, because the economics of the existence of this very forum precipitates that a high % of it's readers/posters donate $$ to pay for the infrastructure of security that the admins require because of the grea-area nature of the legalities of replicas- which is correspondently higher to cover the cost of 'off-shore' servers on a monthly basis. My idea of a solution is to continue the goal of open information, and at the same time explore a more entrepreneurial direction that centers on forum users to subsidize a percentage of 'funds' to be directed in a secondary manner to the admins in the form of donation sales that are whoesaled by a dealer(s) at cost to cover a dozen watches to be sold for the full price with profits going to RWG for the maintenance of the site. Perhaps even there could be a discount and still a profitable and mutually beneficial 'group buy' only for VIP members. Where the donation is $20 bucks per sale, but there was still a significant discount on the retail price available to the general market. This would be an acknowledgment between the dealers and usership of the mutual value of maintaining this online relationship. No profit for a dealer- strict wholesale, and it doesn't even need to be on a variety of watches, the month could be ETA SFSO at around silix pricing- assuming that there is a dealer that's willing to play ball. This would also increase the general volume of readership who would opt to pay the 'membership fee' to get in on the 'group buy' that would occur at significant discounts. The value of the membership would be more clear to the average user. I think price disclosures are an inevitable and acceptable part of the value of this type of online format. The full articulation of the relationships between price and value are not so clear, from only this piece of raw data, as would seem linear to the person employing a decision tree that is only factoring price as their criteria for purchase. The advantage of being a member would be in gaining this price advantage as well as a more tranparent and researched/developed relationship with the sales agent- with a quick, communicative and informed idea of the value of this on-going relationship, and the rewards for being a regular purchaser of the best replica watches. I also think the sale, whether used or otherwise, of MBW/MBK watches should be restricted to the VIP area of the board, but that's not really realistic anymore, with their expansion of availability into the regular market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 I think we need to expand our VIP section and move a LOT more content into it as well as the new suggestion of a "Vintage" section Right now, the only real advantage of being a "supporter" is to get access to the collector section. There isnt much happening in the VIP areas... VIP section should have all the good reviews, the good The Zigmeister info, collectors section, members collection gallery broken down by brand? And the VIP sales section should get used more? just some ideas so make being VIP more appealing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Just a point of notice; two Admins from other boards tried their hands at selling watches both are no longer associated with their forums and left behind members who were out of pocket. We are constantly looking for better ways to fund this forum and we do appreciate the many ideas being posted here although some are not viable. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 VIP section should have all the good reviews, the good The Zigmeister info, collectors section, members collection gallery broken down by brand? And the VIP sales section should get used more? just some ideas so make being VIP more appealing. It's true that the VIP sections are not up to much. You know... For all my la-dee-da attitude, and posh demeanour, I am basically democratic at heart. It would trouble me to post some "VIP-only" reviews because of that. I want to reward the VIPs, but don't want to exclude the other members in any way. I know somewhere my beloved Ryyannon just burst a blood vessel reading that, because it sounds so PC, but it's true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Well...I just paid for my VIP yesterday, and this was based on the value I saw from the FREE non-VIP stuff I was getting, and feeling I should support the cause...this even before I've received my first rep ordered from a recommended collector. Mind you...I also have a regular list of charities I don't to whose services I don't use but I believe in in principle...so I can't say I'm normal (on ANY level). Like Victoria was saying, there isn't a huge amount of action in the VIP area, and the dealer list is available freely on other sites, so the immediate "additional incentives" of upgrading aren't readily apparent to many people. I liked the idea of a lot of the good content subject lines being available for people to peruse, but when following the details to get the articles, you get the "this is for VIP's or whatever you want to call them" and link to the upgrade info. I don't think you want to move all the good content entirely to the VIP section...you need to provide tasters for people...so move the meat of the content (the articles themselves) but allow the subjects to be searchable by anybody. Casual fly through users aren't going to upgrade. If somebody gets enough "This article is for VIPs only" in their search hits with relevant topic hits in the headers, they will know there is value in upgrading. I'm currently trying to find out how to get the The Zigmeister articles in the Rwiki... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 It's true that the VIP sections are not up to much. You know... For all my la-dee-da attitude, and posh demeanour, I am basically democratic at heart. It would trouble me to post some "VIP-only" reviews because of that. I want to reward the VIPs, but don't want to exclude the other members in any way. I know somewhere my beloved Ryyannon just burst a blood vessel reading that, because it sounds so PC, but it's true. I am not meaning to say what you are pointing out is wrong.... but let me play "devils advocate" POSH... P.ort O.ver S.tarboard H.ole ... in the day's of luxury Liners ... this was the optimum berth for travel ...cost a lot too..LOL .. hence the terminology .. POSH Let's for a minute loose the "VIP" label as this in other areas of business would identify people who are given "special" treatment .. let's me use the term "subscriber.. "subscribers" are given a product and service in which they "choose" to pay for .. they are not "rewarded" ... the newspaper industry gives out "samples or Promotional copies" to people they would like to see subscribe to their editions .... 1 week n/c or 3 months for the price of 2 ... after this time the people are given the opportunity to subscibe or not... their choice .. Gannett put in 8 million dollars to free subscriptions when we were going head to head with a rival newpaper .. in the hopes of securing subscribers.. what do subscibers pay for ??.. in reality they are paying for information ... news and sale ads .. clasifieds and stock reports, entertainment .... no one is "taking " anything away from . Non subscribers .. as it is their choice to subscribe or not.. the "VIP's" should not be thought of as "rewarded" for donating.. this is maybe what needs to be looked into .. or the word "supporter" ... i rather like the term... Subscribing Member..... the areas that you would find for subscribing members would be left up to admin. My thoughts would be that whatever is needed to make value buy's and everything that is inclusive of this would be in these sections again the rates for the subscription would be nominal.... 10 to 15 usd a year .. and if it really came down to it I would still "donate" if the need arouse... and when I have donated these last couple of months .. does that mean I am "sponsoring" the members who don't want to .. not that they can't afford it but because they may be waiting for others to do it or are just appethetic ??? So in other words.. am I being "penalized" because I am paying for anothers membership ?? I don't think this way,.. but what is good for the goose is good for the gander in other words .. referring to VIP's being "rewarded" Remember .. another member pointed out the fact that the PC your viewing this on cost money ..and I may add your internet connection has a monthly fee .. come on .. a cup of coffee would pay for a good part of the "subscription" ... we're not talking about a person who is going to take food off his or her family table are we?? I think this is a democracy,.. you are given the "choice" of subscribing" ... when you join a country club a lot of the membership dues go to cover maintanence of the golf course..did you know that golf course maintanence cost upward of 100,000.00 US dollars per month.... some less but some a lot more. When you join an Elite C. Club... you think they accept everyone.??? that's not very democratic is it ??.. some don't accept Women .. and most you have to have a significant social standing and a Lot of Money.... When you go to a Public Library.. although you think it's free it is not... our taxes pay for the funding ... the roads we drive on need to be funded...but we still call our country a democracy ... Europe is more socialistic in their medical and housing issues... So with all this said .. I do not feel that anyone is being rewarded or "punished" for choosing to "subscribe" or not.. because everyone is given the choice to do whatever they want. and if they can afford to save a substantial amount of money by using this forum then they will have paid for any subscription ... and after their subscription runs out they may "choose" not to renew it.. because they no longer feel they need it. that is just another perception of the reality as I see it.. the "need " to keep this Forum operating .. right now Admin. is really going month to month... wouldn't you feel happier if we didn't have to stress through this .. needless to say the pressure it put's on admin.. look at what happen when the Forum was down for a day or two.. how would you feel if it were down for a month or longer ??? Lanikai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Let's for a minute loose the "VIP" label as this in other areas of business would identify people who are given "special" treatment .. let's me use the term "subscriber.. "subscribers" are given a product and service in which they "choose" to pay for .. they are not "rewarded" ... Well, now that you've put it this way -- that's true. I didn't like it when the NYT went pay to "TimeSelect" with some of their articles, and I still wouldn't subscribe to that hoity-toity filthy rag -- but it does make sense that special articles, reviews, and photographs be for those most invested in supporting their best articles. So, okay. You have at least BEGUN to change my mind about this, Lanikai. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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