Admin Posted October 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Just going add real quick here that the admin will never engage in selling replica watches. That would put me "on the wrong side of the fence" in many ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Just going add real quick here that the admin will never engage in selling replica watches. That would put me "on the wrong side of the fence" in many ways. I believe this would amount to "CROSSING THE LINE" ... which I believe the majority of the membership would never want to see happen .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Well, now that you've put it this way -- that's true. I didn't like it when the NYT went pay to "TimeSelect" with some of their articles, and I still wouldn't subscribe to that hoity-toity filthy rag -- but it does make sense that special articles, reviews, and photographs be for those most invested in supporting their best articles. So, okay. You have at least BEGUN to change my mind about this, Lanikai. I believe the term "VIP" .. was in place with good intention but may have out lived it's real meaning as growth is inevitable ... our mindset is with that "class" word.... in my business if Gannett say's he or she is VIP.. what they are saying is don't F--K U- ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 It's true that the VIP sections are not up to much. You know... For all my la-dee-da attitude, and posh demeanour, I am basically democratic at heart. It would trouble me to post some "VIP-only" reviews because of that. I want to reward the VIPs, but don't want to exclude the other members in any way. I know somewhere my beloved Ryyannon just burst a blood vessel reading that, because it sounds so PC, but it's true. Not at all, Vicky, and quite the opposite: I don't like the idea of excluding others from the information-flow. When you create a group of insiders and members-only forums within forums with their own agendas, all kinds of ugly things can happen: back in the days of RWG1, there used to be an invisible circle-jerk forum within the larger forum where an 'elite' membership hung out, gossiped, and bad-mouthed 'ordinary' members who had no idea of what was being said about them - much less the recours to respond. But if democracy implies transparency and participation, these pivilileges also imply support when it is needed. I see tons of people profiting from what this forum is offering while doing nothing to ensure its survival. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 It's true that the VIP sections are not up to much. You know... For all my la-dee-da attitude, and posh demeanour, I am basically democratic at heart. It would trouble me to post some "VIP-only" reviews because of that. I want to reward the VIPs, but don't want to exclude the other members in any way. I know somewhere my beloved Ryyannon just burst a blood vessel reading that, because it sounds so PC, but it's true. One of the fundamental differences I have with those that would take the site private, in terms of their rationale, is in my perception of the very nature of how the internet operates. I believe that the arguments making analogies to public libraries, etc... are not valid. Internet message boards are information sharing forums for open communication. They are inherently 'democratic'. I believe that, if the site was to be changed such that the majority of useful content required membership, we would see a departure of the casual reader/user. The psychology of the typical reader of this forum is such that they would seek out a forum that did not require them to pay money to share information and discuss watches. The sad thing is that it's a response that has been conditioned by expectations formed by years of surfing sites that do not have the same cost of being maintained as RWG...rather than being a reflective evaluation or 'choice' to disregard the reality of RWG's hosting costs. I believe what would happen is that either another watch forum would start up, or one of the other existing ones would absorb most of the casual-user traffic from this site. As content as many of the older members would be to see the casual user base dry up, what I don't think they fully understand is that the lifeblood of the community is based in the constant ebb-flow of new users joining and old members going away. How many of the regular posters here have joined the site in the last year? I bet you it's a significant %. I believe that most people take a 'path of least resistance' approach to this type of thing, as evidenced in the donation % of users. Most of the average users, including the ones that will develop into more active participants, would simply migrate to the next forum with a more open policy. This is also one of the reasons why I don't really buy into the "how much has this site saved you, therefore you should donate" reasoning that most agree with. I believe that it doesn't acknowledge the reality of most internet users, which is that they would find the information on their own somewhere else...if they're determined to find it. That's going to really [censored] some folks off, but my idea of how to try to help out is not to serve up platitudes of how the admins are victims of the selfishness of the human condition, but rather to offer an honest break-down of the dynamics of how I perceive this situation and offer potential directions that can actually help solve the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Just going add real quick here that the admin will never engage in selling replica watches. That would put me "on the wrong side of the fence" in many ways. Would it not be possible to arrange for a dealer to pass on a wholesale price to the VIP memeberships for a particular desired watch (ie: SFSO), whereby the purchase of those watches at cost from a dealer could provide enough margin so that it could incentivize new members to become VIP's to gain access to these 'special deals for VIP's', and at the same time provide a % of the sale price to RWG in the form of a donation? Basically, what I'm suggesting is this: RWG arranges with dealer(s) to provide a specific popular model for each month at the dealer's wholesale cost. This reflects my belief that the dealers that profit from gaining referrals from this site should be part of the financial solution required to maintain it's existence. It's smart business for the dealers to recognize that a significant % of their business comes from RWG, and to find a way to contribute to it's continuation. This may take some hardballing on the part of the admins, with possible ultimatums to cut dealers from the website that aren't willing to play ball. The watches are provided to VIP's at a price that is $20 above wholesale- with the $20 going to a 'voluntary' donation to RWG. This assumes that the average retail cost of most watches, for example, is $50 above the wholesale price. At $30 less than the retail price, the incentive to upgrade to a VIP membership becomes more tangible. This would incease the number of casual users who would sign up for the VIP, as they would recoup the cost of VIP membership in their first watch purchase. The value of being a VIP to a casual member is more clear. This would also increase the revenue of the site, by offering another revenue stream other than VIP upgrade to supply funds for the site's maintenance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 "> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 I believe what would happen is that either another watch forum would start up, or one of the other existing ones would absorb most of the casual-user traffic from this site. What you describe is my deepest dread for RWG. And I know it would happen. I'm sure others do too. As content as many of the older members would be to see the casual user base dry up, what I don't think they fully understand is that the lifeblood of the community is based in the constant ebb-flow of new users joining and old members going away. How many of the regular posters here have joined the site in the last year? I bet you it's a significant %. Actually, I'm not sure that's true. I see a lot of early 2006 members posting. BUT I agree that the forum has bled a lot of older posters -- and it's not like I see them on RWI/Repgeeks, etc. It's just that they're otherwise engaged. But the casual traffic is almost certainly members of less than a few months standing -- that I agree. Ah well. Again, I'd rather pony up more, than have RWG lose potentially voluble members, just because they don't pay their share. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Voluble members.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 I am not the most verbose of posters here (unlike others ). Just enjoy reading up on my favourite subject. Have learnt a tonne too. Worth a few quid in my opinion. Rock on Admin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 (edited) and if they can afford to save a substantial amount of money by using this forum then they will have paid for any subscription ... and after their subscription runs out they may "choose" not to renew it.. because they no longer feel they need it. To also play Devil's Advocate, I must point out that although use of the forum might initially save people money on buying reps from disreputeable dealers, before long, people know who is good to do business with, and who to avoid. With that being the case, information on the forum, (unless it is an article relevent to a key area of a person's interest, such as movement assembly, comparisons between the various divers watches or GMT models) rapidly becomes redundant, so those members would find themselves paying a subscription, just to 'chat and hang out with friends'. Some people don't mind doing that, some do. Someone once commented that they thought the forum had slowed down, but someone else then pointed out that as they had been a member for a while, they had 'stopped learning' the new things, which, when new to a forum, every post and thread is fascinating and new to read, but, once that's all been read, there is less 'new stuff' to learn, hence the appearance of 'forum lag'. I'd say that is a comparable scenario to people initially saving money on a watch by not going to a scam site, but, once they've settled on a dealer, they tend to spend spend spend, so probably spend, in total, as much, if not more, than they originally might have done (although if it's on several watches, that is of course better value for money) Just wanted to throw that out as it may be a factor people do not take into account. Hopefully, once my cheque clears tomorrow, I'll be able to upgrade, and thus begin my monthly zakat [Edit to add] Also, if someone only wants specific watches, or just a specific watch for their collection, once they have it, they have no need to rely on the forum to direct them to reputeable sources, hence my comment above about speciality articles retaining their interest more than just purchassing recommendations. Edited October 4, 2007 by TeeJay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 To also play Devil's Advocate, I must point out that although use of the forum might initially save people money on buying reps from disreputeable dealers, before long, people know who is good to do business with, and who to avoid. With that being the case, information on the forum, (unless it is an article relevent to a key area of a person's interest, such as movement assembly, comparisons between the various divers watches or GMT models) rapidly becomes redundant, so those members would find themselves paying a subscription, just to 'chat and hang out with friends'. Some people don't mind doing that, some do. Someone once commented that they thought the forum had slowed down, but someone else then pointed out that as they had been a member for a while, they had 'stopped learning' the new things, which, when new to a forum, every post and thread is fascinating and new to read, but, once that's all been read, there is less 'new stuff' to learn, hence the appearance of 'forum lag'. I'd say that is a comparable scenario to people initially saving money on a watch by not going to a scam site, but, once they've settled on a dealer, they tend to spend spend spend, so probably spend, in total, as much, if not more, than they originally might have done (although if it's on several watches, that is of course better value for money) Just wanted to throw that out as it may be a factor people do not take into account. Hopefully, once my cheque clears tomorrow, I'll be able to upgrade, and thus begin my monthly zakat [Edit to add] Also, if someone only wants specific watches, or just a specific watch for their collection, once they have it, they have no need to rely on the forum to direct them to reputeable sources, hence my comment above about speciality articles retaining their interest more than just purchassing recommendations. . Point taken TJ... but that is why they need not renew their subscription, if that were the case... but when people don't have to pay for something then they are apt not to use it as much .. who knows we may see an increase in usage if people were given the choice to become a subsciber or not... the main thing is to keep an open mind (works for me as well) when trying to come up with solutions to new "challenges" ... I enjoy discsussing and debating different ideas .. at times it is a form of "entertainment" Say the subscription rate was 15.00 usd per year .. that would equate to a little over 4 cents a day per year... is that taking advantage of anyone ??? and at 20 usd that would be about 5 cents per day... I think that is totally fair given the price of gas and other commodities Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 . Point taken TJ... but that is why they need not renew their subscription, if that were the case... but when people don't have to pay for something then they are apt not to use it as much .. who knows we may see an increase in usage if people were given the choice to become a subsciber or not... the main thing is to keep an open mind (works for me as well) when trying to come up with solutions to new "challenges" ... I enjoy discsussing and debating different ideas .. at times it is a form of "entertainment" Say the subscription rate was 15.00 usd per year .. that would equate to a little over 4 cents a day per year... is that taking advantage of anyone ??? and at 20 usd that would be about 5 cents per day... I think that is totally fair given the price of gas and other commodities Absolutely, the need not renew their subscription, but, then there would be the situation we have at present, where non-subscribing members are looked on as getting a free ride off of the subscribers, and the problems we have seen with people being 'encouraged' to subscribe, by means both friendly, and not so. I guess the point I was trying to illustrate, is that once someone has the watches/info they need, their only reason for remaining is the community aspects, rather than the purely informational aspects of the forum. Maybe it would be worth re-structuring the forum so that subscribers get much more information than non-subscribers, while still allowing everyone to benefit from the discussions and camaraderie... Indeed, I enjoy debate as well, although my post was intended more as using yours as a springboard, and expanding on the theme I agree, the actual fee is not much, and I suspect the amount of it's cost is not the actual issue with people not subscribing, but more along the lines of them feeling they're not actually gaining much by subscribing... Just my .2c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Absolutely, the need not renew their subscription, but, then there would be the situation we have at present, where non-subscribing members are looked on as getting a free ride off of the subscribers, and the problems we have seen with people being 'encouraged' to subscribe, by means both friendly, and not so. I guess the point I was trying to illustrate, is that once someone has the watches/info they need, their only reason for remaining is the community aspects, rather than the purely informational aspects of the forum. Maybe it would be worth re-structuring the forum so that subscribers get much more information than non-subscribers, while still allowing everyone to benefit from the discussions and camaraderie... Indeed, I enjoy debate as well, although my post was intended more as using yours as a springboard, and expanding on the theme I agree, the actual fee is not much, and I suspect the amount of it's cost is not the actual issue with people not subscribing, but more along the lines of them feeling they're not actually gaining much by subscribing... Just my .2c Yes ,.. i agree with you on having to restructure the presentation of the forum, that would be the purpose of subscribing, but that would be putting the cart in front of the horse right now... I don't know TJ part of the subsciption would be to enjoy the forum as a whole .. remember, my suggestion here is not to limit or hinder anyone ,.. but so the Forum as we now it with the current admin and members can move forward and not live month to month .. we actually want to thrive ... and if the social aspect comes with the subscription then I think it is well worth it.... this whole deal is about watches.... but you and I can disagree without being disagreable and have rights to our own opinions and spiritual beliefs ... and not just keep our discussions solely about watches.. i consider you a friend and it has been my pleasure to get to know you through this forum .. Maybe we should think of it as paying rent in cyberspace.....think if this were a regular land line .. long distance phone service... YIKES..$$$$$$$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 Admin. manages to scrape up this month's budget - mainly thanks to a few generous donors.... Issue still not resolved, and the same problem coming up again in just a few weeks. In the meantime, 116 posts, over 1,500 views, and still counting. Talk is cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 Admin. manages to scrape up this month's budget - mainly thanks to a few generous donors.... Issue still not resolved, and the same problem coming up again in just a few weeks. In the meantime, 116 posts, over 1,500 views, and still counting. Talk is cheap. OK .. Ry.. what should we do then??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Carl Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 OK .. Ry.. what should we do then??? That is the question of the hour....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 OK .. Ry.. what should we do then??? If I knew, I could probably bottle it and sell it, lanikai.... And yes, I can see how you might think that I was being critical of the people who've taken the time and trouble to offer their analyses and suggestions: my final comment was pretty ambiguous. I was sort of shooting from the hip - and pretty badly at that - but in retrospect, I guess that I meant to say was not so much a criticism of the people posting here, whether I agree with their suggestions or not, as of the fact that we have to post about this problem at all...just like the last time and the time before that. Because I often think visually, the 'over 1,500 views' (nearing 2,000, actually) makes me think of some sort of roadside emergency, with the drivers in other cars slowing down to get a better look at what's happening - without stopping to help out. And knowing that the same exact thing is going to happen next month.... Like I say, the really shameful thing is that more or less the same people - along with a few new ones - respond to Admin's. call for help....while lines of anonymous 'observers' look on silently for a moment and then move on... I honestly wonder what - if anything - goes on in their heads.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 Ok just to clear up some misconceptions... @Mezz, no dealer even those who are friends of this forum will offer watches at their cost, I even doubt substantial discounts. @TJ, The info on this forum never becomes redundant as every new watch is reviewed for the new buyers also there are many comparisons between the new watch offering from the different dealers. Quite simply there is new info that must be read before any purchase. @ryy, the old VIP on RWG1 was never a place for snickering at the other members, it was in fact a place for brain storming problems that arose within the forum. One such problem was the forming of this very board to give the members a safe place to continue their hobby. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 Yes ,.. i agree with you on having to restructure the presentation of the forum, that would be the purpose of subscribing, but that would be putting the cart in front of the horse right now... I don't know TJ part of the subsciption would be to enjoy the forum as a whole .. remember, my suggestion here is not to limit or hinder anyone ,.. but so the Forum as we now it with the current admin and members can move forward and not live month to month .. we actually want to thrive ... and if the social aspect comes with the subscription then I think it is well worth it.... this whole deal is about watches.... but you and I can disagree without being disagreable and have rights to our own opinions and spiritual beliefs ... and not just keep our discussions solely about watches.. i consider you a friend and it has been my pleasure to get to know you through this forum .. Maybe we should think of it as paying rent in cyberspace.....think if this were a regular land line .. long distance phone service... YIKES..$$$$$$$ I quite agree with you, I was merely playing Devil's Advocate to consider that other aspects as to why people may not feel 'the need' to subscribe. My only concern, is that if opinions become too polarized, and indeed, the social aspect comes with the subscription, then I can see that potentially driving off a few people who would otherwise make excellent contributions to the community of the forum, simply because they feel unwelcomed for not subscribing. Likewise, and it has been a pleasure to get to know you as well, and I agree, we can view subscriptions in any way to make them more palatable, as I suggested to someone that they consider a fee as a repair fee rather than a release fee, just so mentally, they find it more acceptable, my only concern, is those who for whatever reason choose not to subscribe, being driven away, or otherwise excluded... Admin. manages to scrape up this month's budget - mainly thanks to a few generous donors.... Issue still not resolved, and the same problem coming up again in just a few weeks. In the meantime, 116 posts, over 1,500 views, and still counting. Talk is cheap. Not everyone can afford to put their hand in their pocket 'on cue'. More importantly, not everyone wants to. That is why these discussions are so helpfull, as they can bring about sollutions which make things more palatable for everyone. Like I say, the really shameful thing is that more or less the same people - along with a few new ones - respond to Admin's. call for help....while lines of anonymous 'observers' look on silently for a moment and then move on... I honestly wonder what - if anything - goes on in their heads.... Probably not a whole lot. Some people will simply never contribute financially to the forum for whatever reason. The info on this forum never becomes redundant as every new watch is reviewed for the new buyers also there are many comparisons between the new watch offering from the different dealers. Quite simply there is new info that must be read before any purchase. It might be read by new buyers, but the point I was making, was that once someone has read that information, it becomes redundant to them. They don't need to keep re-reading that X is a good dealer, or that Y is a rip-off artist, or that Z is a drop-shipper who never gets it right. Once they've read it, they don't need that information, yet they remain for the social aspects of the forum. Once someone has all the watches they need, then it becomes a case that they 'came for the watches but stay for the people', and my point, was that some people might not be prepared to subscribe to view a forum solely so they can hang out and chat, that was why I felt a restructuring could be beneficial, as some have expressed the view that people are obliged to pay for the information they have found usefull (which in itself is simply an opinion, people have the right to disagree with that view) so restructuring the permissions and areas, would mean that only subscribers benefit from the watch information, but everyone, subscriber or not, could still benefit from the social aspects, and then there would be no cause for subscribers to take a 'high and mighty' attitude towards non-subscribers, which, intended or not, can happen at present. As Lanikai pointed out, that would let people participate as they chose and felt comfortable with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 certainly there is the social aspect of these boards but I'm sorry your reasoning is still flawed as there is not a member on our forum who doesn't continue to learn new info on almost a daily basis. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 certainly there is the social aspect of these boards but I'm sorry your reasoning is still flawed as there is not a member on our forum who doesn't continue to learn new info on almost a daily basis. Ken I agree, there is always something new to learn in terms of horology, but in terms of who is a good dealer/who should be avoided (the primary reason for forums like this) that is information that once someone knows, then they know it, and only occasionallly that someone will come up with a really good 'new source'. It's like I said before about how someone once commented that they thought the forum had 'slowed down', but someone else pointed out that from their join date, it was a case of they had recently signed up, read a huge amount of 'old' information, but then found that there was less 'new' information, so from their perspective, they felt things had slowed down, when really, it was just a case that they had finished 'playing catch up'. I'm not even saying that that's how I personally feel about the subject, I'm just trying to see that all the angles are covered. As Ry pointed out, there are plenty of people viewing, but not many actually talking. Some of those viewers might not feel comfortable discussing issues like this on open forum, so keep quiet, some might feel that they've only been a member for a week so their opinion might not be considered over those of more long-standing posters... As I said, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate so other less obvious options (or opinions) are brought to the table as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 Ok TJ this is where you are getting side tracked, the reason for these forums is not to supply dealer information, that is but an added bonus which way back was almost denied. We are primarily a replica discussion forum here to stop people getting ripped off by some of the sites out there, that is our mission statement and nothing else. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 Amen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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