premiumdesigners Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 actually, doesnt look like it was a big operation. when you do the math, its not very much. lets say $300 average for each watch. That's only a 1000 watches in 4 years. That's less than a watch a day for 4 years. I'm sure the $300,000 was a rough estimate, im sure its more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spock Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 Slay same thoughts here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubFrog Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 I would imagine that rep selling wasn't their only business. I'd say they made a nice sum of money in a few years. I'm just glad River and EL are both ok. Two of my favorites here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJGladeRaider Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 and now dare to tell me again, dealers do this business out of "generosity" and with small profit margins and all the other crap some guys have told me! 300k in 4 years, i bet those guys lived like millionears over in taiwan! I'm not sure you are seeing both sides of this; I cannot identify with this sentiment at all. What do you pay for a fake Rolex? Plenty of really nice ones for $200+ and some of the very best $300+, how much profit could there be? For that money, these people risk expensive litigation at best, and jail at worst. Tell you what, put this in perspective, look in your phone book and call three lawyers advertising criminal defense. Tell them you got busted with 500 fake watches and you don't want to spend the next few years in jail -- see what kind of out of pockt retainer they want. Take that figure, divide it by what you think their profit margin ought to be, and see how many watches they would have to sell just to cover that potientiality. An indictment here, generally means $100K non-refundable retainer at a minimum. If you think you've found the key to the mint, set yourself up as a dealer and see. I think you'd find it to be a cut throat business with demanding clients and narrow profit margins. Just my .02 Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadog13 Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 the profit of our dealers are definitely major than we think.... but we don't complain...as much as they sell us reps at this fair prices that they are selling to us... well...business with counterfait is always been one of the most profitable business....but when you got caught...well that is another story! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJGladeRaider Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 actually, doesnt look like it was a big operation. when you do the math, its not very much. lets say $300 average for each watch. That's only a 1000 watches in 4 years. That's less than a watch a day for 4 years. I'm sure the $300,000 was a rough estimate, im sure its more. That's not usually the way it works with government press releases. For example, when you sieze 5 Kilos of coke, and tell the press what it's worth, do you think they use the wholesale value of 5 Ki's, or street price for 5000 grams? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwai02 Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 300k in 4 years, i bet those guys lived like millionears over in taiwan! Each person gets $15K USD / year. That's average salary in Taiwan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slay Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 (edited) I'm not sure you are seeing both sides of this; I cannot identify with this sentiment at all. What do you pay for a fake Rolex? Plenty of really nice ones for $200+ and some of the very best $300+, how much profit could there be? For that money, these people risk expensive litigation at best, and jail at worst. Tell you what, put this in perspective, look in your phone book and call three lawyers advertising criminal defense. Tell them you got busted with 500 fake watches and you don't want to spend the next few years in jail -- see what kind of out of pockt retainer they want. Take that figure, divide it by what you think their profit margin ought to be, and see how many watches they would have to sell just to cover that potientiality. An indictment here, generally means $100K non-refundable retainer at a minimum. If you think you've found the key to the mint, set yourself up as a dealer and see. I think you'd find it to be a cut throat business with demanding clients and narrow profit margins. Just my .02 Bill As a matter of fact, all watches I bought, I payed for with the money I gained from rep selling. Even though I didnt get my stuff from the factory in China but from our dealers. And I only marked them up about 50bucks! Otherwise I wouldnt be able to afford any watches for 200$, because I have to pay the debts, since I investet over 300k in a Bar! How do you think someone from China or Taiwan can afford various genuine watches? You know what those Rolexes cost straight from the factory? Expect 25$-35$! The ones with asian movements can be bought for less than 10bucks on the STREETS! That means you will still get them cheaper from the factory. 200$ for a Rolex might not be bad, but you probably dont think about is, 200$ is a months income for a lot of families in Asia! Believe me, SOMEONE in the line marks them watches up BIGTIME! I'm not saying its the dealers, maybe they have middle men too. But even mentioning the thought that the replica business is not all about making big bucks is ridicolous! I'm pretty sure Sichuan ernst more money with selling reps over here than he could otherwise! And the risk of getting caught in those countries is minimum, if you compare it to western countries. PT and Homer do a risky business, because its SO easy for feds to track them down&stuff. But I doubt anyone in China/Taiwan cares about someone who sells stuff on the net. And IF they do every once in a while, they do it for the media. Maybe someone refused to pay the bribe? Or maybe competition bribed the cops to arrest them? Each person gets $15K USD / year. That's average salary in Taiwan. I'm pretty sure it was 300k per person, because I doubt they only sold 1 watch per day over 4 years! Edited May 24, 2006 by slay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_uk Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 some of our dealers probably make that a month, and I thought over there they just bought their way out if they got caught Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabbage Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 i wouldnt want to be caught by chinese authorities.....look whats happening to jack bauer on 24 ;-) LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwai02 Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 I'm pretty sure it was 300k per person, because I doubt they only sold 1 watch per day over 4 years! 300K is profit, not revenue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJGladeRaider Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 You know what those Rolexes cost straight from the factory? Expect 25$-35$! The ones with asian movements can be bought for less than 10bucks on the STREETS! That means you will still get them cheaper from the factory. 200$ for a Rolex might not be bad, but you probably dont think about is, 200$ is a months income for a lot of families in Asia! Believe me, SOMEONE in the line marks them watches up BIGTIME! I'm not saying its the dealers, maybe they have middle men too. But even mentioning the thought that the replica business is not all about making big bucks is ridicolous! The logic doesn't work for me. First of all, these people don't pull raw materials out of their ears. What does a real ETA movement cost? What does a real sapphire crystal cost? Whot does a real 316 stainless case cost? What does a real stainless bracelet cost? Even buying in Guangzhou Watchworks quantities, these things are not nickles and dimes. The watch has to cost more than $100 to make . . . and the manufacturer doesn't sell it to our dealers at their cost. If, as you believe, people are out there buying these best current quality Rolex Subs for $25, why isn't some hungry Chinaman out there selling them for $100. Can you show me where anyone, anywhere, sells the same quality watch with these same components for $100? If it could be done, someone would be doing it. The bottom line is, I don't care what they are making. Suppose Joshua's favorite uncle owns Guangzhou Watchworks and outright gives him 100 watches a month - does that make his price on a real nice watch any less of a deal to me? It's all a question of philosophy I suppose, but I make a good living, and I begrudge no man a good living who is offering me as a good a product or service as I can find elsewhere at the same money. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkatbamna Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 That's worth a lot of goods and services in a place like Taiwan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slay Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 The logic doesn't work for me. First of all, these people don't pull raw materials out of their ears. What does a real ETA movement cost? What does a real sapphire crystal cost? Whot does a real 316 stainless case cost? What does a real stainless bracelet cost? Even buying in Guangzhou Watchworks quantities, these things are not nickles and dimes. The watch has to cost more than $100 to make . . . and the manufacturer doesn't sell it to our dealers at their cost. If, as you believe, people are out there buying these best current quality Rolex Subs for $25, why isn't some hungry Chinaman out there selling them for $100. Can you show me where anyone, anywhere, sells the same quality watch with these same components for $100? If it could be done, someone would be doing it. The bottom line is, I don't care what they are making. Suppose Joshua's favorite uncle owns Guangzhou Watchworks and outright gives him 100 watches a month - does that make his price on a real nice watch any less of a deal to me? It's all a question of philosophy I suppose, but I make a good living, and I begrudge no man a good living who is offering me as a good a product or service as I can find elsewhere at the same money. Bill First of all, Sichuan is selling ETA rolex for exactly 100$, so your calculation is already overtruned. Second of all, those ETA replicas are being sold to WESTERN tourists for close to 50$ in China if you are a good negotiator. Furthermore you have to keep in mind, that the movements which are being used by rep manufactors are also produced in China and they buy them in large quantities for a very low price. Genuine Miyots cost about 5$ at cousins. What do you expect a ETA mafucatured in China costs them repmanufactors when bought in large quanitities? If it would cost the factory 100$ to produce a ETA rolex, you would have to pay something around 500$ for it from your dealer of choice. I believe PAM's are a bit more expensive for them (as those are not being produced in the same quantities as rolexes are) and the movements in those watches are only used in those watches. But still I dont believe the costs for a PAM with swan neck is more than 100$, I believe its somewhere around 70$ or less, because those are being sold to tourists for 120-150$! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Category 5 Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 "Even buying in Guangzhou Watchworks quantities, these things are not nickles and dimes. The watch has to cost more than $100 to make . . . and the manufacturer doesn't sell it to our dealers at their cost." Not sure about that. It's almost obscene how inexpensively things can be made in CN. STudio microphones that are clones of German mics costing several thousand make their way to the US at prices lower than $30 a piece...and that includes built in profit, import fees, taxes...and whatever else. You'd think that just the brass body and grille, which is then nickel plated, would cost more than that...never mind the capsule, preamp circuit, assembly, etc. ...not to mention the aluminum flight case and free mic cable. I'd imagine, aside from the ETA movement, the parts these things are made of are pretty darn cheap. I would also bet they are getting the movements for less than $40 or $50 (and even that may be a high estimate). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retep Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 For that money, these people risk expensive litigation at best, and jail at worst. Exactly, i really don`t care if a watch only costs $30 and is sold to me for $200. I`m happy to pay it and so are many others. We are not the ones who are facing possible jail time. But i also agree with Slay that it is not out off generousity that dealers do business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slay Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 rivers has some of the best prices i have seen in a while! swan neck 183 for 249, now thats not bad, seriously! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadog13 Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 rivers has some of the best prices i have seen in a while! swan neck 183 for 249, now thats not bad, seriously! that is an excellent price...100+ $ less than other dealers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollipop Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 Asian Automatics...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostfaceZX Posted May 25, 2006 Report Share Posted May 25, 2006 Hey I have that watch! Is that a bad sign? Hopefully it's none of our dealers, and also customer lists aren't handed over! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted May 25, 2006 Report Share Posted May 25, 2006 River had the ETA 7753 PAM188 for $500, around $200 less than most! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted May 25, 2006 Report Share Posted May 25, 2006 Considering ofrei sells the 7753 at around $4-500, there are obvious dealer markups everywhere. Buying in bulk probably reduces overheads. I've also heard standard (read R*l*x etc) ETA movements are not necessarily genuine ETA movements but Asian copy ETA which are very close. In which case it would be even cheaper to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8o8 Posted May 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2006 you guys do realise that its all of us rep buyers looking for quality reps that determine the prices right? doesnt matter how much it cost out of the factory from china. as long as there are people wanting to buy a eta good quality rep for $200+ dealer will find you. they are all here for business. if we all demanded $30 reps and they are going to make a smaller profit on it they may eventually say that its no longer worth it for them. well back to topic glad to know our dealers are alright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warburg Posted May 25, 2006 Report Share Posted May 25, 2006 EL is OK. Bill Are you sure? I've been waiting almost three weeks for a watch from him, and he isn't answering my E-mails. This is most unusual for EL from whom I've bought many watches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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