Why is Jesus's birth celebrated on Dec 25th?

[Victoria]

The point, is in submitting to God's will, and trusting ourselves to Him.

Let me just say that this belief is the crucial difference between Christianity and Islam. I SUBMIT to no one, not even to God. I ACCEPT God, and His son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Modern Western culture was built on a series of breakdowns of Authority versus Free Will, and it all starts with this aspect of Christianity: acceptance.

I guess missing this thread is the price I pay for watching Torchwood

[Lyndonville]

Hell, I'm cool with any of it, Victoria. The thing is, you (3rd person) need to dig deeper in order to attempt to find a happy medium that works for you. It seems to me that you (3rd person) have to consider that what you're dealing with when it comes to religion is the so-called Law of God aren't, they're man made laws. The bible is full of cute stories, but consider the educational level of the population back then. Bring a JC into this society today and no one would buy what he had to say. I think he existed, but I also believe its a far stretch of the imagination to consider him God, or, a God, or, any part thereof. Man dictated that he was devine. This discussion could go on forever and I would fill hundreds of pages on point/counter-point. It's no different than politics. In the end there's only one answer; yours. Tim

I tend to be a little heavy-handed, for which I apologise, Lyndonville.

But I am an Historian by training and profession. Religion is a contentious topic, and one which there are many reasons why people ask questions.

Some are genuine because they are curious, like I think Demon is, but others, because they wish to tear down religion because they don't like it (specifically Christianity).

I don't care about any of that. I just want as much fact as I can muster. If it's in the Scriptures, I'll take it, as flawed as they are.

If not, then we're all just shooting the breeze, and one person's information is another person's factoid. Is that cool with you?

[Victoria]

In the end there's only one answer; yours. Tim

Agree, Tim, agree. There are many answers, but only one Truth.

And if God, or whatever life force one believes in, wanted us to know the Truth, He would've made us live life backwards not forwards, from wisdom to ignorance.

Good thread, nice exchange of ideas here.

[TeeJay]

Let me just say that this belief is the crucial difference between Christianity and Islam.

Another, is that Christianity is a corruption of God's message (thanks to Constantine) where the Qur'an, is not. Something people often do not realise, is that Muhammad, peace be upon him, was not founding a new religion, but restoring the original one. Of course, that has itself been corrupted over the years itself, which is why I am a Qur'an Only Muslim. I follow the word of God, not the mixed up version, which incorporates the practices and opinions of Muhammad, peace be upon him, as religiously required.

I SUBMIT to no one, not even to God. I ACCEPT God, and His son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

That could be why Catholics feel guilt and the need to confess their sins... It's not for a priest to voyeuristically take people's confessions and offer absolution for them, forgiveness comes from God alone.

Jesus was not the 'son of God', he was simply a prophet who God chose to create in a certain way. His divinity was added, as Pugwash pointed out, by Constantine, at the same time that many other aspects of his life (which would challenge that opinion) were deliberately removed to be forgotten.

Edited February 28, 2008 by TeeJay

[olga]

Demon, getting back to your original question. Pugs comments would be an excellent place to start the research for yourself. As far as the pagan festivals are concerned, if you are interested in researching you might want to consider looking into one called Saturnalia and another Dies Natalis Solis Invicti (the birthday of the unconquered sun). While most possible reasons for dec 25 are debated by one group or another, I think you'll find the information interesting if nothing else. Best wishes in your search for information.

[Victoria]

That could be why Catholics feel guilt and the need to confess their sins... It's not for a priest to voyeuristically take people's confessions and offer absolution for them, forgiveness comes from God alone.

Ultimate forgiveness, yes. And that which follows, absolution.

But the Confessional, in the words of that most sublime fictional character, Sherlock Holmes, is the one aspect of the Roman Church that always struck him as very logical.

Humans feel a need to speak to SOMEONE of confidence about their troubles. Sigmund Freud later came up with the idea in which we Catholics had found release for millenia.

Jesus was not the 'son of God', he was simply a prophet who God chose to create in a certain way. His divinity was added, as Pugwash pointed out, by Constantine, at the same time that many other aspects of his life (which would challenge that opinion) were deliberately removed to be forgotten.

Yes, I once read that in a "Guide to Islam" online.

http://www.islam-guide.com/ch3-10-1.htm

It is a very interesting thing to read one's religion through the eyes of another religion's beliefs. And by interesting, I would say completely insulting, and weighted towards their own precepts.

We Catholics do it to others too. You should hear what some say about Muhammed (PBUH).

[DemonSlayer]

@Raijor- Why the unfriendly rating to TeeJay? He was just outlining points of his beliefs, and we are all entitled to our beliefs. I don't believe he meant any malice with what he wrote.

We can all debate 'which religion is the right one' all day long. At the end of the day its all about faith, we follow that religion which we believe to be the correct one based on scripture and evidence. From the way I see it all religions conflict each other, person A follows a religion he/she believes to be perfect and true, and person B finds 'faults and inconsistencies' with that religion. Similarly person A will find the same faults in the religion person B practices.

[esdee]

Religion is about faith, and tradition, not about certainty and denigration.

and unfortunately many of them, getting money and power over people

[Rxus]

Soo many great explenations already, regardless of our point of view on the topic(s)

Science and religion are never goping to agree on any one thing. But i'm certain many of you will agree that both have assisted one another before, considering that books were copied by hand for centuries and stories were passed on verbally for an even longer amount of time it's safe to say that most stories from the past are flawed, sure some have bigger flaws than others and others have been lost all together.

So I tell you like i was once told, it's a nice balance of faith and common sense. Do your homework read up on topics that interest you, don't be affraid to approach scholars in different religions for answers to your questions and once you have some answers filter out the BS.

[Victoria]

We can all debate 'which religion is the right one' all day long. At the end of the day its all about faith, we follow that religion which we believe to be the correct one based on scripture and evidence.

Actually, one of the undercurrents of this thread, indeed about all discussion regarding religion, is the universality of certain beliefs.

This is why, to people of small intellect, certain religious stories (or myths in their view) have the exact same attributes, convincing them that one religion is just a "rip off" of another.

For example, Mariolatory is nothing new under the Sun. The veneration of the Virgin Mary follows the tradition of many belief-systems in history, where a woman is held as model-absolute to all. Hera was a Mother Goddess, so was Isis, so was Kwan Yin, Lakshmi, etc. etc. etc.

Buddha is also believed to be a product of parthenogenesis, that is, the product of a mother's non-sexual intercourse.

(If you leave it to the geniuses at Zeitgeist, they'll make the argument that Buddha and Jesus are the same person...)

What does this mean? That humans have a primordial need to explain their human story in much the same way. We clearly also need to believe in SOMETHING.

And then tear it down.

[Raijor]

@Raijor- Why the unfriendly rating to TeeJay? He was just outlining points of his beliefs, and we are all entitled to our beliefs. I don't believe he meant any malice with what he wrote.

We can all debate 'which religion is the right one' all day long. At the end of the day its all about faith, we follow that religion which we believe to be the correct one based on scripture and evidence. From the way I see it all religions conflict each other, person A follows a religion he/she believes to be perfect and true, and person B finds 'faults and inconsistencies' with that religion. Similarly person A will find the same faults in the religion person B practices.

Christianity is a corruption of God's message (thanks to Constantine) where the Qur'an, is not

I rated his post unfriendly because of the above quote.

Christianity is a corruption of God's message

... how friendly is that statement and how should people who are Christians feel about it. It is a mean spirited statement and goes beyond a profession of faith. I would have also rated it as intolerant if I could have but there is no such rating. His post went beyond merely outlining his beliefs ... he disrespected the belief of others. This is not friendly and he deserves the unfriendly rating I gave him.

I do not want to debate which religion is the right one and I will not. I have not spoken publicly about my beliefs and I will not. It is just this attitude of intolerance of others beliefs he expresses in his post that is the genesis of religious conflict around the world. The "my religion is the one true religion" attitude is responsible for all the bad that has been done in the name of God through the ages. A little more acceptance and tolerance of one another would go a long way to making the world a better place.

His post that

It's not for a priest to voyeuristically take people's confessions and offer absolution for them, forgiveness comes from God alone.

shows a complete lack of understanding of the Catholic flavor of Christianity. There is nothing remotely voyeuristic happening in the confessional. Before posting on something he knows nothing about he could have done a little research and perhaps he would have understood how far off base his point on confession is and how disrespectful to a Catholic it is. Specifically, the priest is not doing anything voyeuristic in the confessional and the penitent is laying bare all sins before God and asking God's forgiveness. The definition I have found for voyeuristic is:A person who derives sexual gratification from observing the naked bodies or sexual acts of others, especially from a secret vantage point. I would submit that this use of language is plain disrespectful of Catholics.

Have I been clear about why I rated his post unfriendly.? Peace be upon you.

[DemonSlayer]

Yes I understand what you mean Raijor, no one's religious beliefs should be poked fun at or attacked. However, that is what Muslims believe, that Judaism and Christianity is the corrupted form of God's message.

I don't know much at all about Catholiscm, but again I don't believe a religion should be attacked/insulted. We can intelligently and maturely discuss different points about beliefs without resorting to insults. However I don't think TeeJay meant any malice in his statements even though he may have come across like that to others.

[Victoria]

Yes I understand what you mean Raijor, no one's religious beliefs should be poked fun at or attacked. However, that is what Muslims believe, that Judaism and Christianity is the corrupted form of God's message.

Quick, someone call me a bi.tch so we can merge the Dog and Religion threads...

[Lyndonville]

And you wonder why the world has a problem with Islam/Muslims. I found one accurate statement you made here that hasn't been covered previously, and that is we Catholics do guilt. Well, I suppose we do, but then we grow up. And, you? Tim

Another, is that Christianity is a corruption of God's message (thanks to Constantine) where the Qur'an, is not. Something people often do not realise, is that Muhammad, peace be upon him, was not founding a new religion, but restoring the original one. Of course, that has itself been corrupted over the years itself, which is why I am a Qur'an Only Muslim. I follow the word of God, not the mixed up version, which incorporates the practices and opinions of Muhammad, peace be upon him, as religiously required.

That could be why Catholics feel guilt and the need to confess their sins... It's not for a priest to voyeuristically take people's confessions and offer absolution for them, forgiveness comes from God alone.

Jesus was not the 'son of God', he was simply a prophet who God chose to create in a certain way. His divinity was added, as Pugwash pointed out, by Constantine, at the same time that many other aspects of his life (which would challenge that opinion) were deliberately removed to be forgotten.

[Raijor]

Yes I understand what you mean Raijor, no one's religious beliefs should be poked fun at or attacked. However, that is what Muslims believe, that Judaism and Christianity is the corrupted form of God's message.

I don't know much at all about Catholiscm, but again I don't believe a religion should be attacked/insulted. We can intelligently and maturely discuss different points about beliefs without resorting to insults. However I don't think TeeJay meant any malice in his statements even though he may have come across like that to others.

I don't think TeeJay meant any malice in his statements even though he may have come across like that to others.

How do you know what his intention was in making those statements? It came across very clear to me as a mean spirited and disrespectful swipe at Christianity. We are all responsible for what we say. Peace be upon you.

[Pugwash]

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" - Stephen Roberts

Sorry, just had to drop that one in.

[DemonSlayer]

I think it is best for TeeJay to answer those questions, all I can do is assume things but I am also talking from experience by having discussions with him about religion amongst other things.

There are numerous references in the Quran about Jesus and his role/responsibility when he was here. It also makes clear in many verses that humans are not supposed to believe he was God. Heres one:

Say: He is God, the One and Only God, the Eternal, Absolute. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him. (Al-Ikhlas 112:1-4)

Another:

"And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'" (5:116-117).

Now, TeeJay being a Muslim, will of course believe the Quran, and especially so if he is a devout Muslim.

[Raijor]

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" - Stephen Roberts

Sorry, just had to drop that one in.

Very well said indeed. Perhaps the best point in the whole thread. Belief is a choice and faith is belief without proof.

[Victoria]

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" - Stephen Roberts

Congratulations! You are now a member of the Rational Responders Forum. Please click here to upgrade your account with godless money.

[TeeJay]

I rated his post unfriendly because of the above quote. ... how friendly is that statement and how should people who are Christians feel about it. It is a mean spirited statement and goes beyond a profession of faith. I would have also rated it as intolerant if I could have but there is no such rating. His post went beyond merely outlining his beliefs ... he disrespected the belief of others. This is not friendly and he deserves the unfriendly rating I gave him.

His post that shows a complete lack of understanding of the Catholic flavor of Christianity.

Oh dear. You clearly have no understanding whatsoever about the history of Catholicism, and have obviously paid little attention made by others (namely Pugwash) in the preceding pages. Catholicism/Christianity, as it exists today, was created by Constantine and the council of Nicaea. Those are not my opinions about the faith, they are historical facts, and nothing you say, feel or think, will ever change that.

In terms of tollerance, I 'tollerate' Christians as fellow 'people of the Book'. I follow the Sura in the Holy Qur'an which states there is no obligation in religion, and that people are entitled to follow their own differing beliefs. Do not question my tollerance again, especially when your own understanding of the topic is clearly not what it could be.

A little more acceptance and tolerance of one another would go a long way to making the world a better place.

Amen to that.

And you wonder why the world has a problem with Islam/Muslims.

Where did I say that? I'm all to aware of why there are ignorant bigots in the world who have a problem with Islam and Muslims: Namely, demonization, and blaming an entire group of people, for the actions of an extreme minority, the actions of whom are not even sanctioned by the Holy Qur'an.

I found one accurate statement you made here that hasn't been covered previously, and that is we Catholics do guilt.

And what? Are you denying the creation of modern Catholicism by Constantine and the council of Nicaea? I might not have been the first person to mention it, but, it is a well-enough known occurence that anyone with a history of religious studies should be aware of it.

Well, I suppose we do, but then we grow up. And, you? Tim

I think the fact that you're the one casting aspersions about maturity, answers that question itself.

[TeeJay]

But the Confessional, in the words of that most sublime fictional character, Sherlock Holmes, is the one aspect of the Roman Church that always struck him as very logical.

As you say, a fictional character

Humans feel a need to speak to SOMEONE of confidence about their troubles. Sigmund Freud later came up with the idea in which we Catholics had found release for millenia.

Ahh, Freud... I've heard that he created the concept of the Oedipus Complex to assuage his own feelings of guilt about his attraction to his step-mother. While some of his concepts are interesting, they are a little formulaic (and self-aimed) for my taste...

Yes, I once read that in a "Guide to Islam" online.

http://www.islam-guide.com/ch3-10-1.htm

It is a very interesting thing to read one's religion through the eyes of another religion's beliefs. And by interesting, I would say completely insulting, and weighted towards their own precepts.

I quite agree, but, that is a surprisingly objective and accurate article

We Catholics do it to others too. You should hear what some say about Muhammed (PBUH).

Paedophile is one of the most common accusations about Muhammad, peace be upon him. Somewhat ironic, that the Catholic Church has had to pay out millions in restitutions to people who were abused as children by their priests...

[Edit to add link]

Edited February 28, 2008 by TeeJay

[Raijor]

I think it is best for TeeJay to answer those questions, all I can do is assume things but I am also talking from experience by having discussions with him about religion amongst other things.

There are numerous references in the Quran about Jesus and his role/responsibility when he was here. It also makes clear in many verses that humans are not supposed to believe he was God. Heres one:

Say: He is God, the One and Only God, the Eternal, Absolute. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him. (Al-Ikhlas 112:1-4)

Another:

"And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'" (5:116-117).

Now, TeeJay being a Muslim, will of course believe the Quran, and especially so if he is a devout Muslim.

I have nothing disrespectful to say about the Koran and what is in it. People can believe what ever they want to believe in my world. I respect the faiths of others and acknowledge that I do not have the final answers. My answers will be given to me when I leave this life. That Moslems do not believe in the divinity of Jesus is not disrespectful in and of itself. It is the way that this point is expressed that can be. Saying I do not believe in the divinity of Jesus is very different than saying "Christianity is a corruption of God's message" There are Christians who believe and claim that "the Koran is a book inspired by Satan and that Mohamed is one of the Anti-Christs of history along side the likes of Hitler". I do not believe this. How are Moslems to feel when they read something like this? I believe that the are justifiably hurt by such language but no more so than Christians who hear that their Religion is a "corruption of God's message". Neither of these are professions of faith - rather, they are mean spirited, intolerant and disrespectful slags against another's different faith. Believe what you wish to believe but hurt none in doing so. It is not a difficult thing to accomplish. Put a limiter between brain and tongue and accept that with free speech comes responsibility. Peace be upon you.

[TeeJay]

I have nothing disrespectful to say about the Koran and what is in it. People can believe what ever they want to believe in my world. I respect the faiths of others and acknowledge that I do not have the final answers. My answers will be given to me when I leave this life. That Moslems do not believe in the divinity of Jesus is not disrespectful in and of itself. It is the way that this point is expressed that can be. Saying I do not believe in the divinity of Jesus is very different than saying "Christianity is a corruption of God's message" There are Christians who believe and claim that "the Koran is a book inspired by Satan and that Mohamed is one of the Anti-Christs of history along side the likes of Hitler". I do not believe this. How are Moslems to feel when they read something like this? I believe that the are justifiably hurt by such language but no more so than Christians who hear that their Religion is a "corruption of God's message". Neither of these are professions of faith - rather, they are mean spirited, intolerant and disrespectful slags against another's different faith. Believe what you wish to believe but hurt none in doing so. It is not a difficult thing to accomplish. Put a limiter between brain and tongue and accept that with free speech comes responsibility. Peace be upon you.

As I pointed out above, and gave reference explaining, modern day Catholicism/Christianity is a corruption of God's message (from Jesus). The corruption was created by Constantine and the council of Nicaea. I'm sorry if you find that offensive or inpalatable, but, as I said, those are historical facts. My apologies if you found my post unfriendly or intollerant, that was never my intention, I was simply posting facts, as they related to the discussion.

Peace be upon you.

[Raijor]

Oh dear. You clearly have no understanding whatsoever about the history of Catholicism, and have obviously paid little attention made by others (namely Pugwash) in the preceding pages. Catholicism/Christianity, as it exists today, was created by Constantine and the council of Nicaea. Those are not my opinions about the faith, they are historical facts, and nothing you say, feel or think, will ever change that.

In terms of tollerance, I 'tollerate' Christians as fellow 'people of the Book'. I follow the Sura in the Holy Qur'an which states there is no obligation in religion, and that people are entitled to follow their own differing beliefs. Do not question my tollerance again, especially when your own understanding of the topic is clearly not what it could be.

Amen to that.

Where did I say that? I'm all to aware of why there are ignorant bigots in the world who have a problem with Islam and Muslims: Namely, demonization, and blaming an entire group of people, for the actions of an extreme minority, the actions of whom are not even sanctioned by the Holy Qur'an.

And what? Are you denying the creation of modern Catholicism by Constantine and the council of Nicaea? I might not have been the first person to mention it, but, it is a well-enough known occurence that anyone with a history of religious studies should be aware of it.

I think the fact that you're the one casting aspersions about maturity, answers that question itself.

Sir - I will be direct. You are intolerant and disrespectful of people whose religious beliefs are different than yours. My knowledge of Christianity and Catholicism is significant having been educated from the primary grades through completion of high school in Catholic Private Schools where religious studies were compulsory from kindergarten through grade 12. In University I completed a four year B.A. Honors Degree with a double major in History and Religious Studies on comparative Religions. Irrespective of what you are trying to say now your earlier post speaks for itself and shows you as you are and not as you wish you were. You would serve your God well by showing respect and tolerance of the beliefs of others rather than insulting them. Peace be upon you.

[Lyndonville]

I'm good with this dialog. You're better - much better. Tim

I think it is best for TeeJay to answer those questions, all I can do is assume things but I am also talking from experience by having discussions with him about religion amongst other things.

There are numerous references in the Quran about Jesus and his role/responsibility when he was here. It also makes clear in many verses that humans are not supposed to believe he was God. Heres one:

Say: He is God, the One and Only God, the Eternal, Absolute. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him. (Al-Ikhlas 112:1-4)

Another:

"And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'" (5:116-117).

Now, TeeJay being a Muslim, will of course believe the Quran, and especially so if he is a devout Muslim.