UncleJay Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 I have read many posts of unhappy members (myself included) who are spending hard earned cash on reps. I see a pattern of having the first few watches go out, members post how great they are, then subsequent watches are sent of inferior quality. Others post pics of Prototype watches then shipping starts and they look nothing like what was promised. They always say that one slipped thru QC, but then you have a few more, BS if you ask me. One would think that shelling out $400 for a 90% accurate rep is a good deal, but is it? It's not bad on a good deal where the watch IS what was promised. Any problems add shipping costs, delay, headache, trouble, and time to the deal .... sometimes costing you more than the $400 you initially forked over. Hell, I for one can't put a price on the aggravation I feel to open a package I so happily waited for just to fine junk I can't even wear. Now I don't mean to sound like a dictator or tyrant, but I believe we have the upper hand and control when it comes to "Collectors". It's our money and we should be happy with what we get .... the FIRST time. We all need to come together and put a stop to this madness. I for one am upset of reading member's posts of deals gone bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rek001 Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 Noble thought, this comes up every so often, nothing ever comes of it. Sorry if I sound cynical, I've been on the boards for 4.5 years. Closest we came was during the "great white lies" thread begun by Pugwash and it was 15 + pages of bluster with no clear consensus. How can you organize the internet anyway? You have so many people showing up with such disparate agendas and circumstances. The many noobs showing up here every day who are so happy to find this place and, in their euphoria, are happy to pay the high prices and ignore the QC problems because they're so hungry to have a collection and have no idea what hassles are involved. The old timers have had their fill, being lucky enough to buy during the so called golden age. Have you noticed the uptick in gen watch posts lately? Again, commendable attitude on your part, I wish you much luck on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobs1971 Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 Unfortunately I have to agree with rek001. In the past there have been a couple of Don Quichotes who tried to fight the collector windmills. In the end nothing changes, since the amount of people who keep on buying reps with quality issues outnumber the group of demanding buyers. It's simply something we have to live with. As a result I've learned to do small repairs and mods to my watches, so I can fix the flawed first shipment with the replacement parts of the 2nd shipment or maybe 3rd shipment. The end result is still a nice rep for a small percentage of the gen. Takes some patience and learning, but in the end it's worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UncleJay Posted May 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 So I guess there is nothing to be done? I really don't understand it ..... why do we put up with the quality. There must be a way to at least make a price adjustment for these watches. If you pay X$ for a watch and it's not right, then the prices must reflect. I don't mind paying big $ for great reps, but they should deliver what is promised ... no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratedzeus Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 Hey, having QC is as well in the interest of the dealers imho... sending watches back and forth is not in their interest too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdavis Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 (edited) Where did you get the idea that we have the power to have a positive effect on replica Q.C.? We as buyers on this forum are but a small part of the entire replica purchasing pool. If we should quit buying (which most will not) the impact on the makers will be minimal as the number of new buyers increases daily. Scoobs as well as others (myself included), have realized that learning basic watch repair is a necessary part of this hobby. Most flaws with replicas can be handled with a bit of patience and know how that is shared with forum members. I find that being able to make repairs and modifications to my watches has enhanced my enjoyment of the hobby. I am certain that there are others who expect perfection and would like the replicas to come with a warranty but, I'm afraid that will never happen. The reality is that these are replica watches that are made and assembled by local Chinese labor, generally in less than ideal conditions unlike their Swiss counterparts. You pay your money and you take your chances is the way of life in the world of replicas and it is highly unlikely to change. Buying from respected dealers and establishing a good business relationship with them is essential to getting good service and good watches. Edited May 10, 2008 by jdavis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UncleJay Posted May 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 Where did you get the idea that we have the power to have a positive effect on replica Q.C.? One would think that dealers are watching the boards and reading our reports to see what we collectors are saying. We as buyers on this forum are but a small part of the entire replica purchasing pool. If we should quit buying (which most will not) the impact on the makers will be minimal as the number of new buyers increases daily. I'm not saying to stop buying completely, but an effort should be made to have dealers step up QC. I find that being able to make repairs and modifications to my watches has enhanced my enjoyment of the hobby. I can see how making repairs/mods enhance the total experience, and I envy those who do. Buying from respected dealers and establishing a good business relationship with them is essential to getting good service and good watches. I bought from a respected dealer, tried to establish a (2K) business relation, and came up waaaaaaaay short. These are dealers who regularly post on the boards and are well known. It's not like if I'm buying from www.pieceocraprep.com. I guess I'm just bitter about my ordeal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdavis Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 Jay, I understand bitter. I had a similar experience with a "respected dealer" a couple of years ago that didn't turn out too well. It took me a while to put it behind me and realize that all isn't good and fair in the world of reps. I still have the "tainted" watch to remind me of that time. I've learned to expect some problems now and again and to be prepared to deal with them if I can. Sending a watch back to China is a PITA and it may be returned with more problems than it originally had. It would be a great thing if the collectors could QC every watch that passes through but that isn't realistic. QC should be performed by the makers but as I understand it, rep making is pretty much a cottage style industry that can be pulled up and moved quickly if necessary. I think that there are a few collectors who actually QC watches before shipping. However, I think many are drop shipped and the collector never sees them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobs1971 Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 ..............I think that there are a few collectors who actually QC watches before shipping.......... That's why I'm very curious to Eurotimez. To me seeing is believing and I'm also wondering if his presumed QC will last in a couple of years, but as soon as he has a watch that I like I'll give it a try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolexman Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 (edited) I've bought many reps over de past years and received so many DOA or in really bad condition I lost count. Last year I was one of the first to receive the ultimate BCE (pre-order from Angus) and got one with a dented clasp, gaping end-link and crown that didn't screw down. I made a desicion. No more Azian based dealers for me. I NEVER bought another rep from them again. All my reps came directly from Precious Time after that... sure no guarantees but a big step forward. Now, I made my first purchase with Eurotimez whom I got to know very well. He is setting a new standard... a standard which should be applied by all dealers if you ask me. Nothing out of the extraordinary, just something we are all entitled to! It makes me sick when I read all the ass kissing of some members. Like we should be gratefull they're selling us a rep. No f#cking way. I pay hard cash and you beter give me something in return. Sure I know all the stories; reps are reps and don't forget the line of hobby we are in crap. It doesn't give them the right to sell us crap. Customer is king and this also stands in our hobby IMO. I Like this hobby for 1 reason: -I get the same quality watch for a fraction of the retail price. To me reps wear and feel like gens. I've owned several gens and sold them all due to the fact reps gave me equal or even more joy than the gen. So when I have to pay major bucks (e.g. HBB >$1000) for a rep which comes with several quality issues and a unreliable movement (A7750 or ETA clone) there's no reason for me anymore to buy rep. I will start buying gens again instead. As most of the people here we all can afford the gen counterpart...... Edited May 10, 2008 by Rolexman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Tracy Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 Isn't Precious Time Asian ? There have been many Asian and one or two European sellers based in Europe, Canada and other locales, however I don't think it makes a difference over the long haul. All sellers have problems from time to time, and some simply drop out because of it,.. no matter what the claims of personal inspections, sure, blah, yes, send me your money... Unless you are willing to pay close to genuine retail, plus mods, which is to me a bit illogical,.. when a rep will always be, what it is... As an American, price is tops on my list now, as in the past and when I look at Euro based dealers, besides Narikaa, {seller of the only watch I currently own, a $100 gem that keeps time with alarm like a champ for years with no maintenance,} I can't justify the cost, when I know from long years of collecting that there are no guarantees in this game. I agree that if you are a perfectionist, you will need to either pay or learn to mod your own.. Otherwise you need to develop a solid relationship with a dealer, or buy the lower priced model gems that many overlook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 Rather than trying to affect the dealers directly, maybe an indirect approach would work better... Rather than folks donating money when the forums require it, or renewing subscriptions out of goodwill, if a large enough group was to say "We will not financially support this forum unless X, Y and Z dealer are removed, because of their poor dealings with Clients A, B and C", maybe the various admins would find the loss of support from the members, unacceptable by comparison to the amount that dealers pay to be allowed to deal... Personally, I'm more than happy to contribute financially to this forum, as I have gained much from it, most of which, one is unable to quantify with a price tag, but, I'm just wondering, if the dealers knew that they'd be losing out on the easy sales which these forums bring, it might encourage them to pick their ideas up... Just an idea... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiohead101 Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 So I guess there is nothing to be done? I really don't understand it ..... why do we put up with the quality. There must be a way to at least make a price adjustment for these watches. If you pay X$ for a watch and it's not right, then the prices must reflect. I don't mind paying big $ for great reps, but they should deliver what is promised ... no? I've recently had trouble with one of the new dealers who swears up and down the watches go through multiple rounds of QC. He supposedly sends 1 watch, via some cheap shipping method, and it never arrives. After 15-20 days I'm told if I want him to send a replacement I have to pay $25 more for EMS shipping. I do this. So now I've paid for shipping twice and for the watch once. The 2nd watch arrives, it's the worst watch I've ever seen, with multiple different QC issues noticeable within 5 seconds (slanted text, all the hour markers are misaligned, cyclops crooked, etc). So then I'm expected to send this watch back to China, at my cost (so this will be my third shipping I paid for), and then wait for another watch?? It's been almost two months now, no watch. lol. I check the for-sale threads daily because I really only feel safe buying from members now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiohead101 Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 (edited) . Edited May 10, 2008 by radiohead101 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobs1971 Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 cough I guess we now know who the collector is from your past experience.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiohead101 Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 I guess I'm just frustrated with online commerce in general. I ordered two NATO straps from MWR. My order was delayed for a while because the bond-style NATO's were on back order. No problem. I get the order today, and the bond strap is a Zulu instead of NATO. Now I have to go through the hassle of going to post office, mailing it back, at my cost, and waiting on the replacement. It's just so damn frustrating because really, how hard is it to get an order with two items correct? The thing is, in *my* job line, if I screwed up like that most people would be trying to sue me for multiple millions of dollars. Oops I gave you the wrong medication and you died? Sorry, it looked like the other one and I just messed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepsea Posted May 11, 2008 Report Share Posted May 11, 2008 (edited) Hey UncleJay, The educated replica collectors are only maybe %5 of the replica watch buyers. We are %5 that know about watches and complain for quality controls. In this case, dealers doesn't want to give effort to make their %5 of the customers happy Although I'm still enjoying the watch talk, I nearly stopped buying new replicas for that reason last year. I only got 1 this year. I doubt when I'll get another one... Because whatever watch comes, comes with some unexpected problems. Dust under the crystal, scratch on the dial, misaligned hands, damaged luminova, loose screw, loose movement engraving, etc etc etc etc... Edited May 11, 2008 by deepsea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiker01 Posted May 11, 2008 Report Share Posted May 11, 2008 So I guess there is nothing to be done? I really don't understand it ..... why do we put up with the quality. There must be a way to at least make a price adjustment for these watches. If you pay X$ for a watch and it's not right, then the prices must reflect. I don't mind paying big $ for great reps, but they should deliver what is promised ... no? Well, there is something you could do and you don't have to put up with it........DON'T buy from that dealer that screwed, you again!!! And post his name here so that we all know who he is and your experience with that dealer! If we have enough complaints about that dealer, I'm pretty sure the ADMINS here will do something....as what had happened before! If you're with RWG for some time now, you know what I'm talking about! Then when you find a dealer that you're happy and confortable with, stick with him/her, it's easier for both parties. It won't always be perfect, but it's easier to mitigate the problem once a relationship with a dealer is established! I've been burnt a few times with some of our dealers here, but I've also learned from it! With regards to buying from our fellow members here in RWG, all I could say is......it's been smooth sailing! Most if not all our members here are above and beyond! I have bought from members who are from Canada, KIWI, OZ, EU, Gringos/Latinos, ...and all were perfect deals! Keep up the good work fellow RWGerssss! HAPPY MOTHER's DAY to all our MOMS!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted May 11, 2008 Report Share Posted May 11, 2008 yeah turns out we don't have that much power after all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaunit Posted May 11, 2008 Report Share Posted May 11, 2008 The only thing we can do is post our experiences so others can decide if a dealer is any good. I have had a nothing but problems with the reps I have received lately from so called "trusted dealers". Is there anything more disappointing than receiving a watch you can't wear. $300 of your hard earned money sitting on your desk laughing at you. I will not pay to have a watch shipped back, not if I can help it. Maybe if the movement dies I would consider sending it back. Reps will have flaws and it is a gamble, how a dealer handles these issues is what can make the experience more paletable. It would be great if we could rate dealers like they do on FleaBay. Ratings based on delivery, quality, price, communication. It would lessen the risk of receiving a dud. As it is now there is no incentive to even attempt to provide reasonable QC. There seems to be an abundace of watch addicts for them to prey on. My advice: Buy as cheap as you can, if its junk, it won't hurt so bad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baglc1 Posted May 11, 2008 Report Share Posted May 11, 2008 When we have statements like " YOU WILL RECEIVE CR4P, UNTIL YOU HAVE A GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH THE DEALER" 45 days minimum being a member on here seems to be the rule "ADMIN", and i will accept this watch because we are ALL IDIOTS "quote BSHITESOCKS" yesterday, he didn't get my name right either, nothing is going to change. I thought this forum was here to help people not shout them down and close ranks when they have a valid reason to question the QC of the seller. It's our money what paid for our watches, and we should receive our items as described. Regards, An Idiot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted May 11, 2008 Report Share Posted May 11, 2008 When we have statements like " YOU WILL RECEIVE CR4P, UNTIL YOU HAVE A GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH THE DEALER" 45 days minimum being a member on here seems to be the rule "ADMIN", and i will accept this watch because we are ALL IDIOTS "quote BSHITESOCKS" yesterday, he didn't get my name right either, nothing is going to change. I thought this forum was here to help people not shout them down and close ranks when they have a valid reason to question the QC of the seller. It's our money what paid for our watches, and we should receive our items as described. Regards, An Idiot I'm a very senior member - over 3000 posts on rep boards been around since early 2005 - i still get the same crap everyone else does major problem is the business culture of china - they operate different than the western world - Very high level of defective items and the usual and customary solution is to offer a discount on the NEXT item this is normal in china in all industries not just the rep industry - it is very different than US and European purchasers are used to. on top of it we are a good number of sales for these folks, but by no means can we control the market to make demands. THe factories are to blame - and if our dealers complain to much to the factories - then, the factories stop selling to them so, there is always unnacceptable like my recent BCE situation but, QC is always going to be an issue. all we can try to do is keep the dealers here honest as to their practices and hold them to the assurances that they advertise - i.e. it has the type of movement advertised in reality - we could get direct contact to some of the manufacturers oursleves - but we would have NO barginaning power. - the dealers are the go between and give some level of comfort and ability to make things right and thats how they earn their $$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaunit Posted May 11, 2008 Report Share Posted May 11, 2008 I'm a very senior member - over 3000 posts on rep boards been around since early 2005 - i still get the same crap everyone else does major problem is the business culture of china - they operate different than the western world - Very high level of defective items and the usual and customary solution is to offer a discount on the NEXT item this is normal in china in all industries not just the rep industry - it is very different than US and European purchasers are used to. on top of it we are a good number of sales for these folks, but by no means can we control the market to make demands. THe factories are to blame - and if our dealers complain to much to the factories - then, the factories stop selling to them so, there is always unnacceptable like my recent BCE situation but, QC is always going to be an issue. all we can try to do is keep the dealers here honest as to their practices and hold them to the assurances that they advertise - i.e. it has the type of movement advertised in reality - we could get direct contact to some of the manufacturers oursleves - but we would have NO barginaning power. - the dealers are the go between and give some level of comfort and ability to make things right and thats how they earn their $$ Well said Phoband! By the way, what was wrong with the BCE and who sold it to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UncleJay Posted May 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2008 By the way, what was wrong with the BCE and who sold it to you? Here's the perfect example. A senior member has a problem and another member doesn't know about it. If someone has a problem with a DSN product it gets posted in the Panerai Forum. A problem with another dealer gets posted in the forum connected with that brand. We need a forum exclusively for deals gone bad. That way we can track problems with specific dealers and models. We don't want to take food off the dealers tables, we should just let others pay for dinner! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted May 11, 2008 Report Share Posted May 11, 2008 (edited) I'm a very senior member - over 3000 posts on rep boards been around since early 2005 - i still get the same crap everyone else does major problem is the business culture of china - they operate different than the western world - Very high level of defective items and the usual and customary solution is to offer a discount on the NEXT item this is normal in china in all industries not just the rep industry - it is very different than US and European purchasers are used to. on top of it we are a good number of sales for these folks, but by no means can we control the market to make demands. THe factories are to blame - and if our dealers complain to much to the factories - then, the factories stop selling to them so, there is always unnacceptable like my recent BCE situation but, QC is always going to be an issue. all we can try to do is keep the dealers here honest as to their practices and hold them to the assurances that they advertise - i.e. it has the type of movement advertised in reality - we could get direct contact to some of the manufacturers oursleves - but we would have NO barginaning power. - the dealers are the go between and give some level of comfort and ability to make things right and thats how they earn their $$ Very good explanation... Like i always say.. Choose you dealer, then choose your watch. Edited May 11, 2008 by L-dizzle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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