Why RWI has removed Josh and Andrew as dealers

[trailboss99]

"]Due to evidence brought forth to the staff of RWI, both Josh and Andrew's sections on RWI have been closed."

"What evidence, all I have seen is hearsay.

"Andrew has not seen fit to respond or provide any answers on the subject other than to deflect the issue and claim that dealers are conspiring against him. Josh and Andrew have always been viewed as one and the same due to their close connection and business partnership. Thus, we have made the decision to sanction both of them at this time."

Why should he respond when a defence is impossible? He did respond, several times to say "not tru" What more can he say?

"We have not made this decision easily as these two dealers have been mainstays of RWI. This decision was made due to a concentrated effort by these two dealers to obstruct other valued dealers and, ultimately, you the member from obtaining replicas at a fair price. They have sought to control the market and intimidate other dealers into raising prices."

Regretable IF tru but normal bussines pratice especialy in CN.

"Others (whether they be members here or on the other forums) will laugh and think that we are silly... They will say that we are shouting at the rain and that we can't change anything... Maybe they are right but our purpose in this world is to bring you, the member, the safest and best replica hobby experience we can..."

Your forum, you can do what you like,

"You may not agree with our decision, but please respect that we have made this decision with your best interests at heart. "

This makes me mad tho. It reaks of "wer'e from the goverment, wer'e here to help you" How dare you presume to know whats in my best interests! You are not my keepers and I did not ask you to act on my behalf

"We hope that the closing of their sections is not permanent and that they will respond to us and the topics at hand can be mediated. Until then, their sections will remain closed with this message there."

Why should they? I say again you have no eveidence that would even come close to standing up in law and Exactly how do you presume Andrew can refute it? I am not shure where this was going but I reckon its way off the rails now. I say again You have no evidence, just the word of two dealers, one of whome you are choseing to belive and one you do not. Tell me what defence Andrew could offer appart from the benial he has allready made?

[LegendofSpeed]

Those are my words you are pulling apart there... and i will respect RWG and make this very short...

There is evidence in those threads... your saying otherwise shows me you have not been reading along

And you have a choice to go or not go to RWI... you can stay here on RWG which is a wonderful place...

To all the RWG gentlemen.... thanks for the words of support... i hold many of you in the highest esteem...

[trailboss99]

I have been reading along, there is no proof. All you have is Hont's word for it. I have have stated my opinion over there HERE

Feel free to coment. As I said, its your forum, you are free to do and say as you wish this is only my honest opinion.

Col.

Edited July 26, 2008 by trailboss99

[JohnCraig]

Narikaa

Any comments? I see you're here

No longer I guess

[mars08]

With these recent developments, I think Josh and Andrew will work harder to maintain customer loyalty...

I guess that depends on how much business they get from the forum geeks and how much they make from Joe Sixpack who just orders on their web sites.

[trailboss99]

LOS:BTW, just so you understand where I am coming from, I do belive the two of them are joined at the hip as somone put it. Thats obivious. Chk their IPs. *.190 and *.191. The sites are almost identical and the prices are (for the most) exactly the same. I don't dispute the fact there in carhoots one little bit. I can't PROVE this however. I will go as far as to say that you may very well be correct about the threats alegedly made to Hont. I simply see no way of proving this one way or the other beond resonable dought, an important tennent IMO. Its just the word of one aginst the word of the other. Both have big stake in all this and either could be being a little carless with the truth. Its a criminal activity even CN after all so what do we expect?

Regards,

Col.

Oh, and just for you, here's a cpl of pics you may like.

[JHM]

Interesting. I just posted this same thread over on RepGeek. But don't bother looking for the thread on RG. It lasted less than two minutes before it was removed by admin. Unbelievable.

Not that strange, that forum is created and lead by a few of the dealers. I guess Jandrew.

How trusty is that. I'll stay with Angus, best sofar (EL rocked to ).

But as said, It's good for the prices! As long as there here. And members who are served good by Jandrew, keep purchasing! It wouldn't be fair to stop buying from them

Edited July 26, 2008 by Juriaan

[b16a2]

I agree With you Andrew And Josh is one of the most honest dealer when they deal with they customer, not only they do prompt reply, and they take all my question/problem and answer it in a proper manner.

I don't care how Josh and Andrew run his business and how unethical they are to their small competition, As long as Andrew/Josh always do the right thing to the customer, I'm always gonna support them and keep on buying from them, There are no BUSINESS IN THIS WORLD THAT IS ETHICAL. And especially in CHINA, I'm very surprise that there is an honest Seller in China that selling product in the internet, regarding that they are so much scammer in china.

And before judging people ethic look at yourself in the mirror! No one in this world is PERFECT

WRONG!

This isn't a business world. This is a forum to protect it's community. Any practice of this sort is never beneficial to the customer, it would have led to less choice for the customer, that is never a good thing!

Business is business and yes this kind of event does occur in the business world, but the key reason for this community's existence is to protect its customers. If Joshua and Andrew are forcing people out of business, I see this as a bannable offence. I don't have time to trawl through all of the posts on RWI, but the mere fact that they have banned them would lead me to conclude that there is clear evidence of anti-community behaviour, the admin team are very good over there.

I therefore put the question to this board;

why are we not going to ban them if this is the case?

When someone posts a replica watch on TZ and they get banned from all of the forums. I feel action that results in anything less than a ban on the forums for this kind of behaviour,which DIRECTLY affects our community would be hypocritical.

[windyzz]

WRONG!

This isn't a business world. This is a forum to protect it's community. Any practice of this sort is never beneficial to the customer, it would have led to less choice for the customer, that is never a good thing!

Business is business and yes this kind of event does occur in the business world, but the key reason for this community's existence is to protect its customers. If Joshua and Andrew are forcing people out of business, I see this as a bannable offence. I don't have time to trawl through all of the posts on RWI, but the mere fact that they have banned them would lead me to conclude that there is clear evidence of anti-community behaviour, the admin team are very good over there.

I therefore put the question to this board;

why are we not going to ban them if this is the case?

When someone posts a replica watch on TZ and they get banned from all of the forums. I feel action that results in anything less than a ban on the forums for this kind of behaviour,which DIRECTLY affects our community would be hypocritical.

WRONG!

Well from your believe Josh/Andrew are disadvantaging us, but in my point of view they're not. Please tell me why his actions are not beneficial to us? (I need prove as well). Why don't you guys look at the good side of things, and how Andrew/Josh contributed to our community with plenty of satisfied members here. Do you even know how hard they work to get us "SATISFIED"? People always have reasoning behind what they do and don't do, and i believe Josh/Andrew have their reasons as well.

[b16a2]

WRONG!

Well from your believe Josh/Andrew are disadvantaging us, but in my point of view they're not. Please tell me why his actions are not beneficial to us? (I need prove as well). Why don't you guys look at the good side of things, and how Andrew/Josh contributed to our community with plenty of satisfied members here. Do you even know how hard they work to get us "SATISFIED"? People always have reasoning behind what they do and don't do, and i believe Josh/Andrew have their reasons as well.

Intimidating other dealers to raise prices - I fail to see how this would benefit us

This shows lack of moral fibre, but as you say it would quite easily fall into the category of 'its business'. However, this Community should care less about whether it is a good business decision or not, that for me is irrelevant. If they are trying to force other dealers prices up, and then threatening to cut supplies this shows;

a.) that we would be paying higher prices on watches that they succeed in forcing prices up on

b.) that they show total lack of respect for our primary purpose - protecting the community from cartel and backhanding dealers.

I will not disagree that J and A offer a great service, and they always have. However, these posts keep cropping up, and until we show them that this won't be stood for, they will carry on, and that is what worries me......

Edited July 26, 2008 by b16a2

[Pugwash]

and you thought I was silly. I was even banned once on your board over this issue.

Once? That's nothing!

Bold move by RWI, I must say.

[Pugwash]

I don't care how Josh and Andrew run his business and how unethical they are to their small competition, As long as Andrew/Josh always do the right thing to the customer, I'm always gonna support them and keep on buying from them, There are no BUSINESS IN THIS WORLD THAT IS ETHICAL.

[...]

And before judging people ethic look at yourself in the mirror! No one in this world is PERFECT

Wait, I cheated on my tax returns, so I don't have a right to complain about being burgled?

There are plenty of ethical businesses in this world. The trick isn't having an ethical business, it's keeping a business ethical that's hard.

"This is what happens when you find a stranger in the alps."

[Pugwash]

What evidence, all I have seen is hearsay.

[...]

Oh, and it is slanderous, if you tried this with a company in a legit trade you would be being served about now. Being a black market they don't realy have that protection.

You need to learn what evidence/hearsay is and then look up the difference between slander and libel.

1: If the dealer is presenting screen grabs these are evidence. It may be falsified, but it's still evidence.

2: If defamation is printed on a webpage, it's libel, unless it's true.

3: Dealers are on the forums at the pleasure of the admin. No contract is present.

[mars08]

I think this could have been avoided with an addition to this forum allowing reviews of dealers to be made without others attacking the reviewer.

Amen.

And this thread is turning in exactly that type of discussion. Criticism of Josh and Andrew is being shouted down or dismissed as business. It's appeasement, pure and simple.

What's the point of having "trusted dealers" if the TRUSTED part is open to interpretation? What benefit does that bring to members of this community?

[capice]

I put the topic back on RepGeek, hope to hear why it was removed....

Personally I have found Andrew to be one of the better dealers, great service,quick and prompt communication,delivering what was promised, minor issues are being solved(damaged dial and lugscrews)

Trusted....yeah I think so....keeping his word, delivering as discussed....

I would like to see evidence of this...If true i understand the step RWI took...and I feel sorry for us all

As you all know every dealers pays a fee to be permitted to do business on the forum.

It's a game like all business, we as buyers want to get the lowest prices, the dealers want the most what they can get....

Look at the oilcompanies, energycompanies,carmanufacturers, every business is looking for the most profit, any way they can get that is granted...

[AMK000]

The "Jandrews" of the forums they do not just make a profit ...... they totally abuse the prices.

[tutima]

I think a lot of people here did not see the real issue...

It is not an issue of how they treat and serve their customer...A good business man would understand how important customer service is and will do utmost to maintain it...

The issue is the backdoor price fixing, threatening other dealer to raise price or else they would lose their supply from the factory...The evidence is all there over at RWI for all to see if you care to read thru the thread...And the 2 subject dealers don't even have the guts to respond...

If this kind of behavior are not discouraged, we as consumers will all lose in the end...

[capice]

wise words Tutima....

[gianton]

+1 and congrats to the administrators to any forum who do care about their members.

I think a lot of people here did not see the real issue...

It is not an issue of how they treat and serve their customer...A good business man would understand how important customer service is and will do utmost to maintain it...

The issue is the backdoor price fixing, threatening other dealer to raise price or else they would lose their supply from the factory...The evidence is all there over at RWI for all to see if you care to read thru the thread...And the 2 subject dealers don't even have the guts to respond...

If this kind of behavior are not discouraged, we as consumers will all lose in the end...

[Dani]

My prediction on this being a "they are great dealers thread" after one page was so spot on

[capice]

Dani, what do you mean m8..?

[trailboss99]

You need to learn what evidence/hearsay is and then look up the difference between slander and libel.

1: If the dealer is presenting screen grabs these are evidence. It may be falsified, but it's still evidence.

2: If defamation is printed on a webpage, it's libel, unless it's true.

3: Dealers are on the forums at the pleasure of the admin. No contract is present.

Ok, you are right there, maybe I should have been a bit more pedantic with terminolgy.

Credibile evidence would be the words I was loking for tho I'm shure you knew what I ment.

Defamation was prob the word I should have used since we are not shure if its tru or not and you can defame even if tru. Thats the point, we don't know one way or the other.

Hey, chuck 'em off if thats what the longterm members want. Its the airing of allegations that can neither be proved or disproved that I object to as I fail to see how Andrew can efectivly counter these claims. I say again, they may well be tru, but we can't tell for shure. Innocent untill proven guilty. The onus here has been on the accused to prove innocence and that is ar*e about to the way civilised folk do things.

Regards,

Col.

Edited July 26, 2008 by trailboss99

[perry563]

My feeling is that if any dealer is trying to price fix banning them from the boards is the correct thing to do. However something like this needs to be done with a level professionalism which would entail showing everyone exactly what evidence the ban is based upon. I have looked at most of the posts so far but I am not seeing the exact posts or coorespondance that has led to the ban. Can the admin please post the evidence they have word for word so everyone can assess its merit? The other side of the coin is......does the board have a written policy regarding what dealers can or cannot do? Is there a wriitten policy covering things like price fixing as something that would cause a dealer to be banned? If nothing like this exists then one should be developed. Taking this one step further IF a policy covering price fixing does not exisit then we are banning dealers who have not done anything against the rules! Does a rules of conduct covering dealers actions exisit?

[mars08]

QUOTE: "...every business is looking for the most profit, any way they can get that is granted..."

And that's just the way it is, eh? Really?

We get the politicians we deserve. We get the community we deserve. We get the dealers we deserve.

Do we deserve better?

[Pugwash]

Innocent untill proven guilty. The onus here has been on the accused to prove innocence and that is ar*e about to the way civilised folk do things.

It's a forum, not a court of law. The onus was put on Andrew to refute the evidence. He didn't. He was told privileges given to him by the administrators would be lifted if he didn't refute the evidence. He could quite easily have proved the evidence was a forgery, but instead he decided to just plead that he was the victim.

Much to hide? I don't know, but RWI made a judgement call and did what was perfectly within their rights.

I don't know if it is a fit-up job like Andrew claims, as it's perfectly possible he truly is the victim, but let's be honest, does anyone really believe that?