What is going on in America and the rest of the world...

[Pugwash]

This is the fatal flaw in 99% of all conspiracy theories.

Indeed. Someone, somewhere would talk.

[tenacious_b]

Actually that's not what I am saying or hinting at. My logic is simple. Keep an open mind. My personal orientation is to not trust the government because they lie. Basing an opinion on past outcomes seems logical. I question the blind faith of those that dogmatically state that 911 was not an inside job, even though there is an enormous volume of evidence that it was, even if a large portion of it is circumstantial. Just seems like a lot of people are having a disproportionately aggressive response when presented with information that challenges their worldview, even when that information is presented dispassionately, and with verifiable proof. I am not someone that beats others over the head with my views, leanings, or suppositions, but I do openly snicker at all who put their blind faith in the state and the state run media, especially since that faith is neither healthy, nor deserved by our government or media. If a person cannot at least concede that point at least partially, then, judgments about who's more intelligent aside, I simply admit that I no longer have any common intellectual ground that with that person, and cease any attempt to help that person expand their horizons because dogmatic denial of logic, especially when confronted with verifiable evidence, is the intellectual and philosophical equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling " LA LA LA LA LA LA LA, I can't hear you!!!" when confronted with challenging ideas. There is a word for people that display this behavior, and that word is "children," and if I want to talk to children, I have two of my own that are more intelligent and more aware than most adults. This was not meant to be directed at you, just a clarification of my stance. It's not that if one doesn't believe as I do then one is wrong, but if one denies the possibility that one is wrong about a topic to which there is no definitive answer, then that person is uninformed and illogical, and that if that person chooses to stay that way, then that person is not likely someone worth engaging in lively debate or discussion. That's all. See, it's not hard for us all to express our opinions and play nice. It depends on where you're coming from. I am coming from a position of wanting more than anything to know the truth. People that respond aggressively are usually doing so as a defense mechanism to protect the fragile construct within which they live, which is usally based on self indulgent half truths and lies to make it easier for that kind of individual to cope with the relatively bleek and often horrific nature of the truth once it is laid bare.

EDITED TO ADD: actually after reading your entire response, I don't think we're disagreeing on logic or principle, just in our leanings on this particular subject matter. Again, though replying to you, please bear in mind that I used it only as a platform to clarify my viewpoint, and the bulk of my commentary is not pointed at you or your post specifically.

Now see when I read this post, it sounds to me like you are saying if you DON'T believe that Bush downed the Trade Center Towers you are a drone and have been brainwashed by the Big Brother.

It is true that I make fun of conspiracy theories. I have been in enough serious debates over them to realize the futility of even taking the whole things seriously. You will get the same circular logic seen above: if you cannot concede these theories are valid to any degree (using your words here), it is only because (paraphrasing now) you cannot handle the truth - it would overwhelm you. Friend, you cannot argue against this logic and so I don't.

As to the "company line" from the government. It is one thing to admit that the government uses various methods to attempt to minimize negative coverage of its own incompetence (there is ample evidence for this) - it is quite another to accuse it of complicity in mass murder of its own citizens. That is the view these theories are advocating.

Again, I won't get into debating specific points because I will never convince you and you DEFINITELY aren't going to convince me (God forbid). But something for you to consider. I can go to any city in any Arab or Muslim country and find, in minutes, people who will argue, with just as many "facts" and with all the same conviction that there were no Jews in the Towers on 9/11, The whole thing was a frame up by Israel to put the U.S. into a war against Islam. Millions of people believe this. If you point out the fact that there were many Jews in the towers? That is, they will say, according to the state-controlled media in the U.S. - and you can't trust the lists of the names of the victims given out by the government. It is all part of the cover up. This is the EXACT SAME LOGIC that you are using.

Once you accept the basic premise that all facts are in question, that ANYTHING can be manipulated, that ALL sources of information (except your own) have been compromised, then ANY theory becomes equally valid on its face.

That is the beauty of circular logic.

[stilty]

i wish you could see what happens to the face of the first [censored] who tries to put a tracking chip under my skin. lol.

The scary thing is, one day it will be a requirement, and you will be told it is for your own protection. No need for a passport anymore when you can be scanned. No need to carry cash, no need for credit cards, no need for any identification. All that information will be contained in a "chip" and it will be for your convenience. Just like the little chip in your PayPass Mastercard. Just tap n go. We will be told this will be for our security and benefit. Fear makes us do crazy things. First fear of terrorism, now fear of identity theft. It is scary but it is true.

[JohnG]

There it is again:

The loopty-loop logic: I don't agree that the evidence is compelling or even convincing. From THAT you can make the following assumptions:

I have a fragile world view and am just struggling to protect it (and myself from the trauma of waking up to the truth).

I have "blind faith" in the "state-run media" - whatever that is - and am incapable of seeking out and evaluating for myself the credibility of multiple sources for information.

If I disagree with you I am doing "the intellectual and philosophical equivalent of sticking [my] fingers in [my] ears and yelling " LA LA LA LA LA LA LA, I can't hear you!!!"

I could go on but hell, we all read the post... This is why I [try] not to get sucked into these things. It is always the same. You have the truth and we are too domesticated to see it.

Dude, congratulations of figuring it all out. Somehow I don't think I am ever going to, so you might as well give up on me right now.

[JohnG]

The scary thing is, one day it will be a requirement, and you will be told it is for your own protection. No need for a passport anymore when you can be scanned. No need to carry cash, no need for credit cards, no need for any identification. All that information will be contained in a "chip" and it will be for your convenience. Just like the little chip in your PayPass Mastercard. Just tap n go. We will be told this will be for our security and benefit. Fear makes us do crazy things. First fear of terrorism, now fear of identity theft. It is scary but it is true.

OMG you guys are everywhere. You have seen too much science fiction! Or been on "those" sites....

In the 60's it was subliminal messages, then flouride in water, mind control, government-funded ESP projects, now it is a RFID-tagged cow-eyed population...

Sorry, it is just hard to take you guys seriously... If you were as logical as you thought, you would be more adept at persuading people - you would tone it down and plant seeds of doubt rather than come off like whack jobs - I mean, where is the logic in that if you are trying to deliver such an important message?

[rocket754]

It's disputed as to whether or not the fire that cemented the Nazi party's control of Germany was caused by the Communists, as the courts of the time claimed, or by the Nazis themselves as a false flag action.

I very much doubt that 9/11 was a false flag as the sheer number of people needed to keep it quiet is too large to be possible, especially with the information technology we have at our disposal today.

But the fact of the matter is that I am not disputing the events of 911- it was a tragedy plain an simple no matter who or what the circumstances were behind it.....nuff said.

I am trying to make sense of the actions we took and the policies implemented for the good of all the people.after the fact.

At this point I don't think it matters as to what the proposed solution is be it RFID tagging, national ID card or whatever.

My naive hope is that we as freedom loving rep guys have the freedom to choose and have a say for what is the best course of action.

If it ever comes to the stage that the government wants to promote a bill that requires all citizens to be tagged like cattle and we vote that some b*tch into law (after we carefully weight the ramifications of such things)....then we deserve it. I don't want to be following the herd of cattle right over the cliff. I am just hypothetically speaking of course.

Even a dummy like me can piece that one together. I want our rights and our constitution to remain written in stone. I don't want to see my right to free speech and other guaranteed rights as an American slowly taken away from me in the name of security.

that's all....now it's my job not to be a moron and bring some intelligence to the table when crunch time arrives....and that is all we can expect from each other.

[Pugwash]

I am trying to make sense of the actions we took and the policies implemented for the good of all the people.after the fact.

Have you seen the BBC documentary The Power Of Nightmares?

More about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares

[JohnG]

I am trying to make sense of the actions we took and the policies implemented for the good of all the people.after the fact.

Good luck with that - but it can be best summed up as arrogance and incompetence. Throw in some greed, manipulation, and (yes) best intentions, and that pretty much covers it.

If it ever comes to the stage that the government wants to promote a bill that requires all citizens to be tagged like cattle and we vote that some b*tch into law (after we carefully weight the ramifications of such things)....then we deserve it. I don't want to be following the herd of cattle right over the cliff. I am just hypothetically speaking of course.

Well, hypothetically speaking, the United States remains under the rule of law - laws enacted by a legislature. No politician who gives a [censored] about his career is going to present a bill proposing compulsory RFID tagging of the entire U.S. populace. Sorry, but the RFID lobby is not THAT big.

[rocket754]

Well, hypothetically speaking, the United States remains under the rule of law - laws enacted by a legislature. No politician who gives a [censored] about his career is going to present a bill proposing compulsory RFID tagging of the entire U.S. populace. Sorry, but the RFID lobby is not THAT big.

I know. I am just saying that if something like this ever gets proposed then I hope we haven't been swayed so much that we blindly just vote junk like that into law.

I didn't think any politcian would want to give up most of their rights of privacy either but it happened when they voted the patriot act into law.

[Flashman]

Maybe it is all a dream and none of this actually exists and we are just being used by an alien race.

On a serious note personally I don't think governments are intelligent enough to pull off such large hoaxes and plans. Certainly our govt here is c*cking up left right and centre with the simple things like the housing market crisis. They cannot see the wood for the trees........

Edited August 11, 2008 by TommyB

[stilty]

OMG you guys are everywhere. You have seen too much science fiction! Or been on "those" sites....

In the 60's it was subliminal messages, then flouride in water, mind control, government-funded ESP projects, now it is a RFID-tagged cow-eyed population...

Sorry, it is just hard to take you guys seriously... If you were as logical as you thought, you would be more adept at persuading people - you would tone it down and plant seeds of doubt rather than come off like whack jobs - I mean, where is the logic in that if you are trying to deliver such an important message?

Wow! I've never been called a whack job before!

If I'm a whack job, what do you call those Spaniards that are getting chips implanted so they can get in a VIP lounge at a nightclub?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3697940.stm

This technology is everywhere. The chips are now being used in US passports, and when scanned, not only show the data, but the picture as well. It is not science fiction, it is real.

You can store any info you want on those chips, and it is just a matter of time. Why carry a wallet when you can just get an implant?

Check out this story, old news yes, but still relevant.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5439055/

[P4GTR]

You can store any info you want on those chips, and it is just a matter of time. Why carry a wallet when you can just get an implant?

I just keep my 2gb thumb drive in my ass. They don't put lanyard holes on those things for nothing.

[Pugwash]

Ok, let's assume the Gubmint decides you all need tracking chips, they'll go with 'criminals' first and you'll all shout how good an idea they are.

RFID is a useless technology for this, by the way. You can't track people by RFID if they don't want to be tracked.

[JohnG]

Wow! I've never been called a whack job before!

I apologize.

I meant that TO ME, if someone says that as a U.S. Citizen (which I am) I will be forced into a gurney and a chip inserted into my body against my will, and that this will happen to ALL Americans, in MY life time - that SOUNDS whacky. Maybe it isn't but most people (I think) will take it that way.

I know all about the technology. It is one thing for me to have a tattoo put on my body by my own choice. It is quite another for the government to tattoo bar-codes on people - what you are talking about is even MORE invasive.

RFID technology will become a big part of everyday life. But it is not going to be forced into our bodies against our will (in the U.S. anyway). Not while there is still a Constitution and rule of law.

Please trust me in this.

[Dani]

The JFK case and Jim Garrison investigation is anuff for me to think about the US in 2 ways not only one.

Even if most where subject to half truths and what not some of the subjects brought up is pretty damn bad.

I em not talking about the conspiracy as Garrison did i em talking about the lies that later has been busted, that makes you question what is and what is not.

All i really now is that MONEY is power and power speaks louder then anything else.

[Pugwash]

The JFK case and Jim Garrison investigation is anuff for me to think about the US in 2 ways not only one.

Really? The actual Jim Garrison investigation or Oliver Stone's fictionalisation?

[JohnG]

Really? The actual Jim Garrison investigation or Oliver Stone's fictionalisation?

Probably the Stone version from the sound of it.

I think a film that gives a fairly accurate rendition of the complexities of global power struggles, the myriad confounding factors that frustrate even the most well-laid Machiavellian plans, and the law of unintended consequences, is Syriana.

[Pugwash]

Probably the Stone version from the sound of it.

Agreed. Garrison was a little bit insane, according to his peers. He wasn't the driven and stable hero portrayed by Kevin Costner. The movie JFK also fabricated whole sections of the trial, and its portrayal of the Magic Bullet (CE399) was rather blinkered.

All recent high-tech research seems to demonstrate the 'single bullet theory' holds water.

[JohnG]

All recent high-tech research seems to demonstrate the 'single bullet theory' holds water.

You mean that research funded by the Raytheon Company?

[Pugwash]

You mean that research funded by the Raytheon Company?

Or the Weyland-Yutani Corporation, yeah.

[Dani]

Really? The actual Jim Garrison investigation or Oliver Stone's fictionalisation?

do you ever read a hole post or just quote parts?

As said i don't talk about what he did in his theories on the killing and who was behind it all, i talk about the facts brought up in later years where lies has been busted wide open.

If that is not scary then what is?If you believe one person was behind the JFK assassination then you are more stupid then a piece of bread you don't need to see a movie from Stone to understand that..First book i ever read was the JFK Life story i must have been 7-8yr old at the time so my int in this case has never evolved from a half fiction movie done by Oliver Stone.

The US has lost about all the freedom it ones had i em sure soon it will be possible to micro chip everyone to clear them from being "terrorist"..

Cheers

[JohnG]

The US has lost about all the freedom it ones had i em sure soon it will be possible to micro chip everyone to clear them from being "terrorist"..

Well THAT is not an exaggeration is it? The statements just keep getting more extreme all the time. Be careful - your user name, ip address, and the word "terrorist" just caught the attention of that big CRAY in the NSA sub sub sub basement. I am sure there are sending some black helicopters right now with a special RFID just for you!

Just to help things along a little...

Dani Jihad plan finalized disposable cell phone uranium trigger diagram moneybookers execute infidel imminent

Just a few keywords for that hungry CRAY to chew on....

[Nanuq]

There IS no spoon.

[P4GTR]

There IS no spoon.

*spoon bends*

...Change it if you don't like it.

[Pugwash]

do you ever read a hole post or just quote parts?

It is polite to trim down posts to the parts you're directly replying to.

One person shot JFK. However, there were people behind him. The official US government report after the Warren Commission states there was a conspiracy. There wasn't a cover up, they just didn't know the whole story at first. They still don't know the whole story: That's the lesson we should take from this.

... and none of this came from the trial of Clay Shaw.