AP seconds at 12 called out today

[rogerthat]

So I was visting a friend that is in the watch business.

Came by to show him 2 of my newer additions, AP ROO Offshore White Thames with secs at 12.

And a Rolex GMTIIc IHS

He had a business partner over when I came by,who noticed my watches right away.

I also noticed his Gen black dial Daytona easily.

My friend knows I collect reps, but this other guy did not know me.

He saw the Rolex first and didn't comment, a minute later he asked to see the AP; right away he asked how much I paid -

a question if gen he would not have asked-

I told him 500-600 bucks and said it is a rep/copy. He said he knew that right away and the overall finish justed looked off.

He looked closer and confirmed that indeed to him it was instantly recognizable as such ; told me he owned a gen AP Roo, just not the offshore and the brushing of the metal was hard to describe but much different and asked me if I ever saw a real offshore in person.

I have only from feet away in cases or in pictures, never tried one on.

Anyway he commented that in a million years he never would have said the Rolex was a rep, looked just like a nicesub.

I think the subs don't excite him as they are so common. Rep or not he liked the new clasp on the bracelet.

I tried on his daytona, which was a very sweet watch, he said he waited 6 years to be able to buy it at list.

He was actually a real nice guy and knew everything about watches, we chatted about Genta designs and I confirmed later with my friend that he does own a gen AP Roo and about 200K worth of various gens.

Guess he was in the watch business for 30 years but is partially retired now but still collects.

Since I tend to believe this gentleman, I am asking for some advise:

those of you who have seen a AP gen in person and own orhave seen the rep; is there a big difference in the overall apperance.

Not talking date fonts,spacing on the dial, tach#, etc.. something that can be seen from a foot away not under a loop or with a side by side comparison? OR do you think he just felt bad when he saw a $500 version of a watch he would pay $15K for that looked very much like the real deal? OR maybe I did not come accross like someone with a $15K watch?

I don't try to fool people who know watches when I am wearing a rep, but I don't like to wear I am wearing a fake watch tee shirts either if you know what I mean.

Cheers,

M

[subzero1]

He judged you, not the watch.

[nmachen]

the finishing on the case is not a tell; the finishing on the bracelet is another story.

The only way I can tell at a glance from a foot away is the date. Its a combination of a few things that make it stick out i think. The lack of AR on the little crystal and the fact that the date isnt deep enough. On the gen the datewheel tends to look a bit dark/yellowish. Its one of those things thats drives you crazy, but in the end isnt really as apparent as you'd think.

Edited September 20, 2008 by nmachen

[Guest acg2010]

I have to agree, he judged you and said in his own mind he didn't believe you had 20k dollar watch. The 7k watch he believed apparently.

That's the one danger with Hublot, AP, and a few other rare or real expensive ones, most people won't know, but someone who does, will know what they cost, and can judge solely based on that knowledge in some instances.

[ratchpot]

The lack of AR on the little crystal

To be fair, AR on the date magnifier is something that AP have introduced only recently. The vast majority of gen ROOs don't have AR on the date magnifier.

[donpedro]

I'm not so sure about the being-able-to-tell-from-a-mile part. At least mine's been handled by watch professionals who didn't have a clue.

I actually think the ROO@12 is more accurate than the HBB, which has a lot of tells (just flip it over, for instance!). Pretty much the only AP flaw would be the date (position of the window, size of the mag, and color of the wheel), but it's still very good, and you'd have to know the original very well to suspect something fishy.

My two cents

Cheers!

Johnny

[b16a2]

My opinion is that you can't polish a turd

We are paying 500USD for a 17k watch. I believe that someone could spot a replica APROO just from the fit and finish but only if they have extensive experience with high end watches. I have not held the gneuine, but I can imagine it is very well finished.

I went to the IWC AD the other day, and the detail is just fantastic in person, and that is on a watch for half the price of the APROO.

On the other hand though, the average watch seller or Joe public would not know the difference. I think it would only be someone that worked with/owned an APROO for any length of time that could tell like your friend's friend did.

[iceberg1459]

i would say he judged you, not the watch. he just cant tell right away and always if someone asks you how much you paid, he got no idea...

[maulermacall@hotmail.com]

Doesn't your friend whose in the watch business find it a little insulting that you collect replica watches? Your funding an illegal trade and potentialy damagin his livihoods. You must have alot of nerve/balls by wearing a rep when meeting two highly knowledegble people.

Im not knocking you, its just something I wouldnt do. Id be far more comfortable with a gen or a homage watch than wearing a rep in such circumtances.

[ExtraExtra]

@mrreynolds - I think judging you maybe part of it but not entirely because you brought with you a Rolex that he thought was gen. So for you to have a AP ROO was probably not a surprise but a curiosity because it is not a common watch and he may have one in his collection. There is to my opinion very little means to tell from a foot away to tell if the AP ROO is a rep. He commented on the overall finish because he could not call out the specifics (i.e date spacing) - to me this is just a general means of agreeing with you that it is a rep without knowing for sure. I bet he is probably bothered by the fact that you spent much less than he did.

[Watchmeister]

Is it possible he asked what you paid because he was just curious what you paid? If he is an old watch guy he may well have simply wanted to know. But for anyone who is really interested and knowledgeable the person could have noticed any number of things that set his mind spinning. This person is a watch guy with multiple AP's. Although the rep is really good there are real finish differences. I have an ancient RO and the brushing is still noticeably better, the screws sit better on the bezel, etc. 99.9% of the world would never notice the layout of the crown and pushers. But for the .1% of owners who care enough about AP's to read or just know about movements and know it is a module movement the crown pusher layout is very noticeable. So you never know. But you did the right thing immediately telling him it was a rep.

[rkdk]

well, the question here is if he told you it was rep before, or after you told him the price.

The finish isnt all that different to gen. Id say the seconds at 9 mbw, was much worse that these new seconds at 12 editions.

[Dani]

I have seen many roo's in person everything from RB RG to roo's in all diffrent themes and its a diffrence but not anything big.

I feel comfy wearing my white/grey dial one. but i wish for better version.

[eunomians]

My doctor has a rose gold ROO. He's a serious veteran collector. He loved my ROO. And he had no idea it was a rep. The dude you mention in your anecdote was bluffing (and he obviously won the round). There is no real difference in finish. My doc's rose ROO is finished the same.

OEM is big frivolous $. A suspecting conoisseur will be:

a. jealous

b. wondering if your lifestyle can support such frivolous spending

I wonder the same thing when I see dufuses in my city of Bentleys, Astons and Ponitac Fieros with Ferrari Body-Kits rockin' Jacobs, Pateks,, etc... SOme of these jackasses are frontin' bigtime, some are not. Personally, I am lucky enough to support my lifestyle despite my relatively still youthful age

[Emperor Penguin]

This is all speculation. Only the watch collector knows what he was thinking, and I would dare to speculate here that he is reading these forums now, getting his jollies that we are all pulling our hair out.

What you should have said was to act in a way in which you are joking, but there is no way if you are serious or not. Here is how I would have responded.

"This watch? It's a cheap fake and I bought it in Chinatown for twenty bucks."

That'll leave him hanging. Always works for me.

[Guest Sql_pl]

He did not have a clue - I am sure!

If you played that better he would never know.

Just look at some comparison pics in the other thread - would you be able to tell without knowledge of this forum?

[im2]

Can't agree more from the points above. One of my major concerns wearing various reps is that people may assume that i am wearing reps not by judging the accuracy of the reps but by judging my whole lifestyle... I am not poor i have my own job but some people will not accept that my collection could cost 20 K $ And they are right... BUT the guy was bluffing imo... 90% of the people owning gens CANNOT tell the difference between a good rep, (e.g. modded euromariners, modded pams, ultimate hbb) and their gen watch...

[kbh]

A couple of weeks ago I did a little window shopping at Tourneau over on Worth Avenue and the first thing I realized while looking at them, mostly Breitlings and Rolexes in particular, were how much more "expensive" they looked than all the reps in my collection. It may have just been the lighting or something but they all looked shinier, cleaner, better fit and finish, etc. And this was just looking through a window. It kind of bummed me out.

[rogerthat]

Thanks for the extensive feedback.

Overall the replies do make me feel better about this model.

After reading one of the initial comments, I would agree that the bracelet finish may have been what the guy was referring to and why he felt it looked off.

Looking back, I should have said $20 becuase it would have been better to play it that way.

I did not want to deceive him and was taken aback when he asked what I paid,when he knows what the retail prices are.

He either judged me and was bluffing or the brushing on the bracelet tipped him off.

Guess if he did judge me, it was accurate, I in theory could buy a $7K watch but would never be in the gen market for a $15K watch.

That is such a difference, that I think it is a different type of consumer.

People without much knowledge would not think it is a rep becuase it is made so well, and although it means nothing the weight is so heavy most would never think fake.

(for some reason the weight matters to people who know nothing about watches)

Those same people likely think it cost $3K or so, as who really knows the retail value of highend watch brands.

Not sure about this guy,becuase I don't know himbut my friend though in the business doesnot get paid by any Swiss company nor is authorized to sell or service them, so he doesn't care.

Many watch fans are happy to chat watches with other watch fans,regardless of rep or not.

He loves to try on new pieces I get, becuase it gives them a sense of what the gen would feel and look like. I have even bartered a rep to him before so he is not against wearing a rep.

In all seriousness a true gen collector would be wise to purchase our reps.

For a few hundred bucks they could try out a watch for a month, if they still love it after the initial joy wears off they buy the gen. I am sure there are many cases of gen disappointments that are very costly and could be avoided with such a step.

Cheers,

M

[Emperor Penguin]

After reading one of the initial comments, I would agree that the bracelet finish may have been what the guy was referring to and why he felt it looked off.

The conclusion, therefore, is to get rid of the bracelet and buy a conversion kit from AP Bands, a real alligator strap from either there or Strapluxe, and possibly an AP clasp from King. It may mean another $400, but it makes the fake even harder to spot. With a good alligator strap and AP clasp, the only way anyone can spot the fake is to look carefully at the date window, which I understand is about 1 mm too far to the right, and not as deep as the genuine. Very difficult to distinguish, unless you are looking for those differences specifically.

[fotoman]

Dude was full of [censored] - even the experts here have called out fakes on gen photos of watches before.

best thing to do is be non-challant about it - This thing - eh, i think 14? - i just tell my jewler what to get for me and he gets it - saves lots of hassle. and then ignore him and go back to whatever you were doing

The bands/ straps are always and have always been the weakest part of the rep industry from crap to Super reps. there are only a handful i have kept, most i switch out - in fact, the strap really makes the watch - its kind of like Rims - really dresses it up - i have gone to Gen straps, especially Gen rubber - and really expensive leather - by HKTAN. The difference is real.

Best rep strap i have ever had so far is my ROO rubberclad rubber strap. haven't handled the gen rubber strap - but have seen it up close, a friend had it a while back. - but the rubber is outstanding, nice and soft.

[archibald]

This is one instance where I believe the guy was judging the watch not the wearer. A whole career in the watch business? Sure he could spot instantly as lot's of us could, even not knowing the tells. IMO, on super high end watches especially there are a lot of little things, probably none that we could put our finger on specifically, that make a gen an instant tell from rep. It's a lot of little things working together on the subconscious--the dial, the hands, the fit and finish.

We're fooling ourselves if we think all but the best frankens might fool a professional or a serious collector. We just have to settle for fooling 99.9999% of the people we meet.

[ari]

Like others have said, you didn't get called out at all: you called yourself out. Of course he knew it was a rep after you told him it was!

For the record, the following is getting called out:

"Hey, check out my watch!"

"Ugh, where'd you get that fake piece of crap, Canal Street? I hope you didn't pay too much for it."

The following is not getting called out:

"Hey, check out my fake watch! I got it for a couple hundred bucks from China ... but doesn't it look just like the real thing that costs $20,000?"

"Nah, I knew it was a fake: the bracelet is too shiny."

Cheers,

Ari

[Emperor Penguin]

Like others have said, you didn't get called out at all: you called yourself out. Of course he knew it was a rep after you told him it was!

For the record, the following is getting called out:

"Hey, check out my watch!"

"Ugh, where'd you get that fake piece of crap, Canal Street? I hope you didn't pay too much for it."

The following is not getting called out:

"Hey, check out my fake watch! I got it for a couple hundred bucks from China ... but doesn't it look just like the real thing that costs $20,000?"

"Nah, I knew it was a fake: the bracelet is too shiny."

Aha, but here is a monkey in the wrench, Emperor style:

"Hey, nice watch? Is it real?"

"No, it's a fake and I bought it in Chinatown for twenty bucks."

"Twenty bucks? Give me the watch, lemme see."

"No way, dude! You'll scratch it and I paid a lot of money for it."

The guy then perceived the $20 answer as a joke, and because he won't be allowed to handle it he would have reason to believe it is indeed real. The conversation continues.

"Come on, how much did you really pay for it?"

"I'll say that I spent a lot of money for it. Let's leave it at that, OK?"

Of course, we can argue that $600 was indeed a lot of money for a watch, so we would be telling the truth there. Of course, $600 is nowhere near "a lot" as $20,000. However, $600 alone is a lot, but we can argue that it is nothing to a billionaire.

"Did you spend $20,000 for it?"

"Keep guessing, dude, but I'll say that it's somewhere near it."

$600 is far closer to $20,000 than a million, so we can argue that it is indeed "somewhere near it."

Use some of the Emperor's tactics and it'll drive guys crazy.

[subzero1]

Bah, far too complicated for me. I rarely play this game, but on the rare occasions that I do, my response to "How much did you pay for this watch" is the very honest "Less than I could have, but more than I should have.

Aha, but here is a monkey in the wrench, Emperor style:

"Hey, nice watch? Is it real?"

"No, it's a fake and I bought it in Chinatown for twenty bucks."

"Twenty bucks? Give me the watch, lemme see."

"No way, dude! You'll scratch it and I paid a lot of money for it."

The guy then perceived the $20 answer as a joke, and because he won't be allowed to handle it he would have reason to believe it is indeed real. The conversation continues.

"Come on, how much did you really pay for it?"

"I'll say that I spent a lot of money for it. Let's leave it at that, OK?"

Of course, we can argue that $600 was indeed a lot of money for a watch, so we would be telling the truth there. Of course, $600 is nowhere near "a lot" as $20,000. However, $600 alone is a lot, but we can argue that it is nothing to a billionaire.

"Did you spend $20,000 for it?"

"Keep guessing, dude, but I'll say that it's somewhere near it."

$600 is far closer to $20,000 than a million, so we can argue that it is indeed "somewhere near it."

Use some of the Emperor's tactics and it'll drive guys crazy.