What Happens When We Die?

[milsub5517]

Does anyone know someone who had near-death experience?

What Happens When We Die?

By M.J. STEPHEY Tue Sep 23, 6:40 PM ET

A fellow at New York City's Weill Cornell Medical Center, Dr. Sam Parnia is one of the world's leading experts on the scientific study of death. Last week Parnia and his colleagues at the Human Consciousness Project announced their first major undertaking: a 3-year exploration of the biology behind "out-of-body" experiences. The study, known as AWARE (AWAreness during REsuscitation), involves the collaboration of 25 major medical centers through Europe, Canada and the U.S. and will examine some 1,500 survivors of cardiac arrest. TIME spoke with Parnia about the project's origins, its skeptics and the difference between the mind and the brain.

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What sort of methods will this project use to try and verify people's claims of "near-death" experience?

When your heart stops beating, there is no blood getting to your brain. And so what happens is that within about 10 sec., brain activity ceases - as you would imagine. Yet paradoxically, 10% or 20% of people who are then brought back to life from that period, which may be a few minutes or over an hour, will report having consciousness. So the key thing here is, Are these real, or is it some sort of illusion? So the only way to tell is to have pictures only visible from the ceiling and nowhere else, because they claim they can see everything from the ceiling. So if we then get a series of 200 or 300 people who all were clinically dead, and yet they're able to come back and tell us what we were doing and were able see those pictures, that confirms consciousness really was continuing even though the brain wasn't functioning.

How does this project relate to society's perception of death?

People commonly perceive death as being a moment - you're either dead or you're alive. And that's a social definition we have. But the clinical definition we use is when the heart stops beating, the lungs stop working, and as a consequence the brain itself stops working. When doctors shine a light into someone's pupil, it's to demonstrate that there is no reflex present. The eye reflex is mediated by the brain stem, and that's the area that keeps us alive; if that doesn't work, then that means that the brain itself isn't working. At that point, I'll call a nurse into the room so I can certify that this patient is dead. Fifty years ago, people couldn't survive after that.

How is technology challenging the perception that death is a moment?

Nowadays, we have technology that's improved so that we can bring people back to life. In fact, there are drugs being developed right now - who knows if they'll ever make it to the market - that may actually slow down the process of brain-cell injury and death. Imagine you fast-forward to 10 years down the line; and you've given a patient, whose heart has just stopped, this amazing drug; and actually what it does is, it slows everything down so that the things that would've happened over an hour, now happen over two days. As medicine progresses, we will end up with lots and lots of ethical questions.

But what is happening to the individual at that time? What's really going on? Because there is a lack of blood flow, the cells go into a kind of a frenzy to keep themselves alive. And within about 5 min. or so they start to damage or change. After an hour or so the damage is so great that even if we restart the heart again and pump blood, the person can no longer be viable, because the cells have just been changed too much. And then the cells continue to change so that within a couple of days the body actually decomposes. So it's not a moment; it's a process that actually begins when the heart stops and culminates in the complete loss of the body, the decompositions of all the cells. However, ultimately what matters is, What's going on to a person's mind? What happens to the human mind and consciousness during death? Does that cease immediately as soon as the heart stops? Does it cease activity within the first 2 sec., the first 2 min.? Because we know that cells are continuously changing at that time. Does it stop after 10 min., after half an hour, after an hour? And at this point we don't know.

What was your first interview like with someone who had reported an out-of-body experience?

Eye-opening and very humbling. Because what you see is that, first of all, they are completely genuine people who are not looking for any kind of fame or attention. In many cases they haven't even told anybody else about it because they're afraid of what people will think of them. I have about 500 or so cases of people that I've interviewed since I first started out more than 10 years ago. It's the consistency of the experiences, the reality of what they were describing. I managed to speak to doctors and nurses who had been present who said these patients had told them exactly what had happened, and they couldn't explain it. I actually documented a few of those in my book What Happens When We Die because I wanted people to get both angles - not just the patients' side but also the doctors' side - and see how it feels for the doctors to have a patient come back and tell them what was going on. There was a cardiologist that I spoke with who said he hasn't told anyone else about it because he has no explanation for how this patient could have been able to describe in detail what he had said and done. He was so freaked out by it that he just decided not to think about it anymore.

Why do you think there is such resistance to studies like yours? (* i wonder what would vatican say if it turns out that there is no hell or heaven...?) will they re-write this part of the bible? lol I dont think so. There will be a major resistance from the religious organizations to this kind of studies.. Also, considering the fact how many "religious" fanatics we have at power this will not have an easy outcome..

Because we're pushing through the boundaries of science, working against assumptions and perceptions that have been fixed. A lot of people hold this idea that, well, when you die, you die; that's it. Death is a moment - you know you're either dead or alive. All these things are not scientifically valid, but they're social perceptions. If you look back at the end of the 19th century, physicists at that time had been working with Newtonian laws of motion, and they really felt they had all the answers to everything that was out there in the universe. When we look at the world around us, Newtonian physics is perfectly sufficient. It explains most things that we deal with. But then it was discovered that actually when you look at motion at really small levels - beyond the level of the atoms - Newton's laws no longer apply. A new physics was needed, hence, we eventually ended up with quantum physics. It caused a lot of controversy - even Einstein himself didn't believe in it.

Now, if you look at the mind, consciousness, and the brain, the assumption that the mind and brain are the same thing is fine for most circumstances, because in 99% of circumstances we can't separate the mind and brain; they work at the exactly the same time. But then there are certain extreme examples, like when the brain shuts down, that we see that this assumption may no longer seem to hold true. So a new science is needed in the same way that we had to have a new quantum physics. The CERN particle accelerator may take us back to our roots. It may take us back to the first moments after the Big Bang, the very beginning. With our study, for the first time, we have the technology and the means to be able to investigate this. To see what happens at the end for us. Does something continue?

link to the article

[sssurfer]

When your heart stops beating, there is no blood getting to your brain. And so what happens is that within about 10 sec., brain activity ceases - as you would imagine. Yet paradoxically, 10% or 20% of people who are then brought back to life from that period, which may be a few minutes or over an hour, will report having consciousness.

... that could happen in the first few seconds of their "death", or in the minutes of their reanimation.

So the key thing here is, Are these real, or is it some sort of illusion?

Correct question. Allucinations and dreams are not consciousness.

So the only way to tell is to have pictures only visible from the ceiling and nowhere else, because they claim they can see everything from the ceiling. So if we then get a series of 200 or 300 people who all were clinically dead, and yet they're able to come back and tell us what we were doing and were able see those pictures, that confirms consciousness really was continuing even though the brain wasn't functioning.

Incorrect assumption and bad experimental design. That would only confirm our unability to know at what extent the brain was functioning. Brain is a complex system made of many parts, modules and circuits. Some parts go out of work in death, or come back to work during reanimation, before other parts do.

People commonly perceive death as being a moment - you're either dead or you're alive.

Obviousy, completely incorrect. Intestinal cells are still alive, and intestinal villi are still moving, up to three days after the brain is completely dead. And also brain death is a matter of tens seconds or a few minutes, depending on the different parts.

As during allucination and dream the perception of time is completely falsed, those tens seconds or minutes can be perecived as many minutes by the almost-dead or returning-from-death.

So it's not a moment; it's a process that actually begins when the heart stops and culminates in the complete loss of the body, the decompositions of all the cells. However, ultimately what matters is, What's going on to a person's mind? What happens to the human mind and consciousness during death? Does that cease immediately as soon as the heart stops? Does it cease activity within the first 2 sec., the first 2 min.? Because we know that cells are continuously changing at that time. Does it stop after 10 min., after half an hour, after an hour? And at this point we don't know.

The human mind and consciousness stop when all the brain parts relevant to mind and consciousness stop. Period. That is a process too, and we do not precisely know how much time it takes -- especially as we were not in knowledge of which brain parts are relevant to mind and consciousness until very recent times. All hints point to tens seconds though, or, at most, just a few minutes.

Now, if you look at the mind, consciousness, and the brain, the assumption that the mind and brain are the same thing is fine for most circumstances, because in 99% of circumstances we can't separate the mind and brain; they work at the exactly the same time. But then there are certain extreme examples, like when the brain shuts down, that we see that this assumption may no longer seem to hold true.

Either the author is confused or he just wants to promote his book. At first he correctly says that death is a process rather than an event, then he fails to apply the same concept to the brain and mind (that are the same thing) and he talks of brain shutting down like if it was a switch.

Does the author asked himself why noone who had his head crushed by a truck came back from death to tell us about his experience?

I suppose he would say it is because the victims had no mouth to speak anymore...

Many years ago I too dreamed that I was dead and I was floating in thin air above my body, and I was seeing my body and the whole room from the ceiling.

Does it mean that I actually died at that time -- or may it be a pretty common and aspecific dream/allucination?

Thanks for pointing out this arcticle, mil_sub.

[Nanuq]

Aw heck, I thought I had the answer... What happens when we die?

Answer: our survivors send all our watches to Nanuq!

[iceberg1459]

well i dont know others but i hope i go to heaven with 72 virgins

[ubiquitous]

B- What if they don't have your mailing address?

[JohnG]

Answer: Through a special RFID transceiver (the one you thought was just for "convenience"), the Rockefellers upload your soul to a dedicated coms sat where it is stored for some unknown (but undoubtedly sinister) future use.

[Polynomial]

well i dont know others but i hope i go to heaven with 72 virgins

I guess ya have to blow up something really big to get that many

[Shundi]

@ JohnG

Hahaha, superb...ammo for the NWO

Thanks for the article mil_sub!

[Guest Sql_pl]

You mean like what happens with all nice watches that we leave behind?

[P4GTR]

I consider finding out for myself once in a while.

[milsub5517]

i hope you are not serious ...

I consider finding out for myself once in a while.

[chronoluvvv]

after an accident last year, they plugged me into the wall to keep me going

in hindsight, i wish they would let me 'float' around for a little ... LoL

[milsub5517]

it would confirm that some part of us can exist outside of the body (how else can we see from the top if the body is laying on the table?) and has consciousness. Excellent first experiment which will also produce more questions than answers if it actually works.

Incorrect assumption and bad experimental design. That would only confirm our unability to know at what extent the brain was functioning. Brain is a complex system made of many parts, modules and circuits. Some parts go out of work in death, or come back to work during reanimation, before other parts do.

[TeeJay]

Correct question. Allucinations and dreams are not consciousness.

Absolutely correct, yet, we are still able to experience them

well i dont know others but i hope i go to heaven with 72 virgins

Only 72? Why not 73 or 80?

I guess ya have to blow up something really big to get that many

Well, the Qur'an specifically forbids suicide, and never actually mentions the number of 'virgins' a person will have in heaven (the closest is reference to [people in general] having wives of perfect purity [which could really be interepreted a lot of ways) so anyone misguided enough to believe that such actions would lead to such rewards, really needs to re-check with the source material

[Chronus]

well i dont know others but i hope i go to heaven with 72 virgins

male virgins?

Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...

[sssurfer]

Absolutely correct, yet, we are still able to experience them

Sure, my friend. Consciousness is relevant for a very small percentage of our whole being.

Between 1 and 5%, I would say.

how else can we see from the top if the body is laying on the table?

You can't be serious, mil_sub.

Just take a good dose of LSD and look at what you become able to see.

[chronoluvvv]

Just take a good dose of LSD and look at what you become able to see.

never tried that THANKFULLY but i have some morphine laced memories and boy o boy, were they spectacular !

[TeeJay]

Sure, my friend. Consciousness is relevant for a very small percentage of our whole being.

Between 1 and 5%, I would say.

Of course, one needs to bear in mind (no pun intended ) that there are different states of consciousness, deep medatative trances, for example Modern medicine knows so little about the workings of the Human mind, it's easier to 'learn as you go' rather than trying to 'read the manual' (which hasn't been completed yet )

[sssurfer]

it's easier to 'learn as you go' rather than trying to 'read the manual' (which hasn't been completed yet )

I agree, it's easier.

But a pretty decent improvement of the manual is under editor's examination right now...

[LordRasta]

Gentlemen, the answer to the question is......Someone else starts wearing all your watches.

[iceberg1459]

Only 72? Why not 73 or 80?

i heard somewhere muslim people are promised to get exact amount of 72 virgins if they go to heaven... pretty cool, hope some hot virgins

male virgins?

Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...

well, if you lived as homo

[TeeJay]

I agree, it's easier.

But a pretty decent improvement of the manual is under editor's examination right now...

Excellent

Gentlemen, the answer to the question is......Someone else starts wearing all your watches.

Now that, is very true

i heard somewhere muslim people are promised to get exact amount of 72 virgins if they go to heaven... pretty cool, hope some hot virgins

Sorry, but it's just anti-Islamic propoganda spread by the media to reduce Muslims to the status of sex-hungry degenerates... There is no such reference anywhere in the Qur'an making that promise (Nor did the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, ever make such a promise) so don't worry about that Besides, virgins are the worst fucks anyway, so who'd want that for eternity?

[sssurfer]

Besides, virgins are the worst [censored]s anyway, so who'd want that for eternity?

Uhm, it depends on where they are virgin...

[TeeJay]

Uhm, it depends on where they are virgin...

Personally, I like my women to have enough experience to know what they're doing