ROCKETEER = K2222 - Admin Team is there something U can do ?

[FxrAndy]

well one way to think of this, If i was in his shoes and there were so many people with pitchforks and tourches out side my door, i would be busy at work to sort it all out at the bench so that when i opened the door you would be presented a nice watch with the AR you wanted.

Does not explain the yellow AR but it would explain my lack of comunications if i was in his shoes, may be a quick post as i got some bread and water between putting all the crystals in.

Like i say pitch forks and tourches later, reason and understanding early.

that said i dont have any crystal with him so i will just stfu.

[docblackrock]

Sorry to hear about all of this, my only comments are these...

1. Not sure what the actual need for Rocketeer was re. Chief's AR service in the first place? He acted as a mass forwarder? Is it so difficult to ship a crystal to the US? Or was it to facilitate a more local removal and reinstallation of crystal from the watch? If so, then that brings me to....

2. People should really look into swapping out the crystal themselves. Removing them by hand is very easy with care, just decase the movement and pop out the crystal with eyeglass/microfibre cloth-covered thumbs. Reinstall is more difficult, but can be done via hand or better, a proper case-pressing tool, the type with nylon dies. They're not that expensive, not difficult to justify since you're planning to spend x amount on getting the AR in the first place - consider it an investment. You are always taking a risk sending a watch to an relative unknown modder, especially since he's not really an active member on this board, and is NOT endorsed by Chief - you should really perform your own due diligence and not just go along with the herd. The lessons learned from the situation with Poland's Most Wanted - who took me by surprise given my own dealings with him - should be uppermost in people's minds. Apathy it seems took hold here.

3. Think at worst this is likely to be a Finepics case rather than a k222 one - he's obviously up to his neck in items, and is behind schedule thus avoiding the persistent emails etc. as to what's going on. Classic case of denial by the sounds of it. Clearly some bodging of coatings at his end, and some less than ideal attempts at correction. Most people will get their crystals back I'd imagine at some point, and if not take it as a lesson learned.

Doesn't do anyone any favours this sort of knee-jerk reaction without getting all the facts in first, just serves to heighten the hysteria which could, if the guy sees this, be counter-productive. If it makes any of you that are concerned feel any better, I'm currently in a similar non-delivery non-communication situation with a seller (who passed every check with flying colours) with the exception that we're talking a $5k gen gone AWOL. I'll gladly swap your sleepless nights with mine anytime.

[TwoTone]

Sorry to hear about all of this, my only comments are these...

@S

Good note...

TT

.

[nikki6]

I have never had any dealings with Rocketeer, but I recall him being a fairly longterm member and had the tag of 'tester' under his avatar. Kinda like Lanikai has 'Raffle-meister' under his and TT has 'co-Admin' etc

Is this something he put on himself or did he actually test things for 'good of the masses' so to speak?

I may have completely the wrong person here and if so I apologise and retract anything inflamitory. From what I remember him and another member, sorry can't recall the name, were trying to find UK ar specialists, then it was thought while hunting for one they would be a central collection for a run to Chief. This is just my memory of it as I was going to put in a couple of crystals, but fell ill and wasn't able to get them to 'central hub' on time.

I think that on one thing we all agree on and that is that the integrity of Chief in this business is unquestionable. He has proved time and again that what he provides is the best and if it doesn't come out the best, for whatever reason, he fixes that reason and makes it come good again!! I don't feel a man here can have any doubt in his mind about this fact. I feel it's really inportant to keep this in mind as this thread grows legs!!

It's really the 'Tester' tag thats sticking in my head for some reason?! Again, I really do apologise if I have this all wrong, my memory isn't the best.

Sixx

[ash77]

What a mess...

[KB]

No nikki I just checked, it's part of his avatar.

Ken

[lanikai]

Agree with DBR 100 !!.. you could get the crystal press for less than it would take to pay someone to prop the crystal out then reinstall it..

and my empathy to your genuine issue.. I hope it's resoved to your liking !

all the problems stem form someone having gone over his head with jobs I think.

I would equate someone with an auto shop whom takes in 50 cars to change tires.. and coming in to work for 1 to 2 hours a day.. and working by himself with other responsibilities that may take precedant.

needless to say someday's he may not feel like working.

I mean realistically 30 watches .. yikes !! think of what would happen if your tired,.. and start mislabelling which watch belongs to whom..

let alone you would have to have a very organized set up (like chiefs) to put the correct crystals with the correct watches.. upon return

I'm repeating myself .. but this needs to be taken as the "final" lesson learned .. there comes a time when you have to take ownership for your actions.. no one twisted your arm to send the watches to Rocket, I say this after learning myself the hard way.. .. and only I was to balme in the end.

and again I need remind everyone of the hobby we are all in. the local watchsmith is not a normal option as if you are taking in a genuine piece.

but in a postive note.. it is because of the freedom of expression that RWG holds as a "principle" that we can post threads like this here, without it being deleted as fast as they are posted..

so props to the Admin Team for that privelege !!

I am sure all the watches will be returned .. now that all has come to light.

Best we get busy with a tutorial of how to get the crystals out to chief without a third party's involvement..

Cause I will say this :... If "I" can do it .. anyone here can.. !! .. like DBR states.. it's rather simple.. but IMO can be a scary "thought"

A~C

Lani

[Pix]

Regaring crystal removal : you can imagine that most members don't have the skills nor the equipment to do that. some bring their bracelet to the watchsmith to resize it : so be it. They will surely never remove a crystal.

If you're told someone can do it for you for 10 dollars and then send it to Chief, what would you do ? I would send my watches of course.

I have learnt many things here on the boards, starting to open casebacks, swapping stems, removing some movements, popping some crystals out. Even stripped an AR by myself, although I now understand this might have been a mistake.

Now, I am still unable to work on complicated watches like Breitlings. Also, some movements are a pain to reinstall, as the stem won't hold if you don't know what you're doing.

So I fully agree on "do it yourself", but it's not that easy for 90% of the people.

Nobody twisted anybody's arm. But again, when Chief announced that we could go through Rocket for E.U. members, it was very welcome and made sense, at least for 32 of us... Does that mean we're 32 naive persons ?

[docblackrock]

Regaring crystal removal : you can imagine that most members don't have the skills nor the equipment to do that. some bring their bracelet to the watchsmith to resize it : so be it. They will surely never remove a crystal.

If you're told someone can do it for you for 10 dollars and then send it to Chief, what would you do ? I would send my watches of course.

So I fully agree on "do it yourself", but it's not that easy for 90% of the people.

Nobody twisted anybody's arm. But again, when Chief announced that we could go through Rocket for E.U. members, it was very welcome and made sense, at least for 32 of us... Does that mean we're 32 naive persons ?

Firstly, as I said earlier, it takes neither skills or equipment to remove a crystal. But it takes a whole lot of apathy, naiivety, and yes, laziness to just expect someone else to do it for a few bucks, especially someone you don't know from Adam. That was your risk and you took it.

Not sure where this 90% figure comes from, but that's the thing with DIY solutions - that's half the fun of this hobby, you try things step by step, slowly extending your limits, getting more accomplished along the way - if you bugger it up, then fine there's always one or two people out there that will be able to rectify your mistakes - no-one's dying here, it's just a watch which almost always can be fixed. It's a learning process.

What would I do? Chief was very clear on not underwriting Rocketeer, so you should have taken that as a clue. You were prepared to pay X for the coating and Y (plus postage) to have it reinstalled yet you won't spend a one-time Z on a crystal press to avoid having to pay numerous Ys (plus postage) in the first place? Time to rethink the logic of that maybe.

In some ways, I think this is symptomatic of the board these days - I've noticed it in the sales forums even. Place a rare/OOP/old skool base rep in there and no-one will bat an eyelid, but something current with one or two basic mods and the frenzy will begin. This culture of wanting it all now, without having to put in one minute's worth of effort yourself.....it's not that I look down on it, it's that I just don't understand it.

Good luck to all those with crystals and watches in limbo.

[therooster]

Guys, let's not over-simplify things. For example, don't forget the people who already had watches for service with Rocketeer and upon hearing of the AR run just thought "what the heck... he might as well send the crystal to Chief while he's already got my watches"... And the people whose watches came back ruined, half done, not working, over-oiled, etc... And the people whose watches still haven't been returned for mysterious reasons after months, and whose communication with Rocketeer has virtuallty stopped.... People who had used Rocketeer before and had a positive experience but were burnt the second time around... And people who have sent lots of money and got nothing in return... And all of this while Rocketeer was making posts left right and centre showing what an expert he was. I don't think it was unreasonable to trust him and the problems are not limited to the AR run... There'a lot more. So please, before you start telling people that it's their fault, think carefully about how much you really know about what was going on, and more importanty, ask yourself how much it matters whether members are 10, 20 or whatever percent responsible for their problems. It doesn't help, and it doesn't make things better. What puzzles me when things like these happen is the speed with which people come out in defence of the service provider rather than the trusted members, the speed with which blame is shifted (unnecessaily I believe, and with no clear purpose) towards the buyer, and the tendency to oversimplify matters. I don't need to bring up old stories to make my point, but I'm sure people can remember previous instances when this happened. Anyway, I do hope this gets resolved quickly. I'm starting to think that, given that Rocketeer has now disappeared, we shold perhaps start a thread soon listing any unresolved issues with him.

[scotty]

OK - I'm convinced and changed my view.

Rocketeer IS Jakub

[scotty]

On a marginally more serious note, I agree pretty much with Rooster.

May be productive that one of those affected start a thread listing pending items, what was sent, dates etc. So a full picture can be gained AND a tracking of returns can be done.

Not just AR, but other jobs with R.

[Watchmeister]

I took a moment and read through a number of Rocketeer's earlier posts and am now convinced we have a Finepics rather than Jakub situation. It looks to me like he started with the best of intentions and then got in over his head. I am optimistic he will reappear and try and make things right. If he really doesn't reappear in the next week or so, don't folks have his address? If I read correctly he is in the UK and someone must live down the street from him. No, I am not suggesting you put a hit on him. But it is always useful to know where someone lives.

My sympathies to all and hoping for the best.

[coolfire]

Sorry to hear about all this guys. I sincerely hope that everybody will be able to get their items back.. and that Rocketeer will at least take the time to reply and give assurances.

[Pix]

Firstly, as I said earlier, it takes neither skills or equipment to remove a crystal. But it takes a whole lot of apathy, naiivety, and yes, laziness to just expect someone else to do it for a few bucks

It does !... I don't think I'm less skilled than others, but I see where my limits are technically. There are basic operations I can do, I learnt them here and there, and I already screwed more than one watch before performing them. That's a lesson for me and I accept it.

Crystal removal is not easy, because movement removal is not easy.

Crystal reinstallation requests skills and accuracy. So I can't let you say people are either apathic or lazy. Naive, surely.

I must confess I was expecting someone to pop up and say this kind of thing, it's the easiest role.

In the end, there are 32 crystals and watches + all the other modding works which are somewhere in the UK, and surely screwed for most of them. There's no communication from Rocketeer, and if any, mainly lies.

The lazy guy is not the one who paid for. It's the guy who got money, a large amount, and did not do his job in due time, if he ever did.

Just a different way of seeing the glass.

Not sure where this 90% figure comes from, but that's the thing with DIY solutions - that's half the fun of this hobby, you try things step by step, slowly extending your limits, getting more accomplished along the way - if you bugger it up, then fine there's always one or two people out there that will be able to rectify your mistakes - no-one's dying here, it's just a watch which almost always can be fixed. It's a learning process.

Could have been 80 or 70, that was to say that MOST people won't do that kind of job, as they don't want to screw their watch. Is that lazyness or intelligence ?

If besides there are modders or apprntice modders to offer the job on the boards (yes, we all learnt the existence of Rocketeer HERE), and if the lazy guy has the means to pay for that, why should he refrain ?

Of course this is all a long process. But PLEASE, do not give us a lecture, not here, not in this thread.

I've been asking personally, and on behalf of some members I had conversations with, for some help. Not a "you've been warned" or "you did not make your homework". I thought and am still convinced that the boards, the admin team and some members are here to help and guide us. Sometimes to protect us of our own stupidity. It's not an obligation in the end : it's a wish.

What would I do? Chief was very clear on not underwriting Rocketeer, so you should have taken that as a clue. You were prepared to pay X for the coating and Y (plus postage) to have it reinstalled yet you won't spend a one-time Z on a crystal press to avoid having to pay numerous Ys (plus postage) in the first place? Time to rethink the logic of that maybe.

I did not want to go in such tiny details but... What if I tell you that there were 3 days between the initial post of Chief and the warning ? How many crystals left inbetween ? What if I tell you that my watches went on friday 13th february ? Have I been warned in this case ? I have till now not even thought of mentionning that, but I'm starting to be slowly irritated with the "you've been warned". I read this so many times already. Naivety there was, of course. Not stupidity.

With all respect I have for Chief, and that was already mentionned in his section, he did not know about Rockets *cough* capabilities. I would and have never advised any member (and there were a lot) to buy or use a service from someone I don't know. Never. And that's where what initially posted in a positive view (helping E.U. members) turned to be a very bad advice. Chief has already drawn lessons and apologized for that, respect to him. I doubt he will ever recommend anyone else in the future without having developped a personal or professional, regular, relationship.

In some ways, I think this is symptomatic of the board these days - I've noticed it in the sales forums even. Place a rare/OOP/old skool base rep in there and no-one will bat an eyelid, but something current with one or two basic mods and the frenzy will begin. This culture of wanting it all now, without having to put in one minute's worth of effort yourself.....it's not that I look down on it, it's that I just don't understand it.

This is your opinion, and I hear it : but you won't change the world with that, and it will not help anyone here to make philosophy about where the Wolrd is going, telling people they are lazy and naive.

To make it short : now let me confirm (if any doubt) that I'm not a lazy (nor stupid) guy, and not the one who won't do any effort, as you seem to insinuate. Unless I misread you.

I try to learn, make efforts in my hobby for me, and also for other members. My contributions and countless PM on both boards for 2.5 years show it...I suppose. But I'm maybe just unknown to you... as you are to me. So please don't judge.

I can't change the crystal of a Breitling, and I can't relume my watch. So what ?

It's probably the case of most people who felt in the trap.

That being said, I learnt my lesson... from Rocketeer.

[Pix]

Guys, let's not over-simplify things (...)... And all of this while Rocketeer was making posts left right and centre showing what an expert he was. I don't think it was unreasonable to trust him (...). What puzzles me when things like these happen is the speed with which people come out in defence of the service provider rather than the trusted members

Exactly my point.

[lanikai]

(therooster @ Jun 16 2009, 10:50 AM)

Guys, let's not over-simplify things (...)... And all of this while Rocketeer was making posts left right and centre showing what an expert he was. I don't think it was unreasonable to trust him (...). What puzzles me when things like these happen is the speed with which people come out in defence of the service provider rather than the trusted members

I can only speak for myself .. but I am not 'defending' Rocketeer ... he is not a service provider on "this" forum" .. I am however through dozens of ar'd crystals commenting through experience "chiefs" AR capabilities ..

It has been noted time and again.. that modders other than the "one" that is the foundation of RWG have proven to be less than reliable.. now "vac" has been addd to the RWG service providers list..under endorsement

Other than ZM and Vac (edit to ammend) only ZM and Vac are RWG endorsed Modders......

no one here has defended the modder whom holds your watches... on the contrary it has been stated time and again that ... the modder in question makes his home on another forum.

what I and other members have been trying to steer towards is the need to cut out third party liability ...

I believe each and everyone of you .... this is not a "NEW" issue .. rather one that has been done once to often...

so for me it's about the "solution" so this dosen't happen anymore ...

has anyone tried to get Rocket to respond on another forum.. excuse my naiivete. but would that cause pcoblems for anyones account on another forum ??

A~C

Lani

[HauteHippie]

I did not want to go in such tiny details but... What if I tell you that there were 3 days between the initial post of Chief and the warning ? How many crystals left inbetween ? What if I tell you that my watches went on friday 13th february ?

Really?

Paraphrasing from the still-available thread:

Chieftang (Feb 11) : You may now contact Geoff of RRWP in the UK regarding his services for AR runs.

Chieftang (Feb 13) : Don't take the above as an endorsement, etc, etc.

Pix (Feb 22) : OK I've taken the plunge for two watches.

Now I really don't think the Feb 11 post should have been taken as a recommendation, but rather as a lead for those who had been asking about it for months. That's how it was intended, and as I reread it, in my honest opinion, that's really how it comes across to me. As soon as I sensed otherwise (2 days later), though, I gave the warning which was also reiterated on Feb 14. And even if the Feb 11 statement was taken as an all out endorsement somehow, am I really to believe that despite his notoriously slow email response times there were mass enquiries and responses with shipping info and immediate shipments of batches of crystals within two days of my initial post? If so, then at this point I will take full responsibility and the loss for those. Feel free to post your shipping receipt and you'll have a refund in full from me immediately.

Now... On to other news. Today I received email from Geoff indicating he was scrambling to correct problems in the batch of 32 through refunds and/or recoating within the UK. He didn't indicate how many, nor who they belonged to. He also said that most of the 32 were not prepped by him, but arrived as already-prepped crystals ready to be coated. Take the info for whatever it is worth. I'm simply passing it along.

[Star69]

hope it works out for all of you guys -

i personally would have freaked out already after 1 month of waiting

cheers,

Frank

[docblackrock]

what I and other members have been trying to steer towards is the need to cut out third party liability ...

so for me it's about the "solution" so this dosen't happen anymore ...

Exactly my/our point Lani, unfortunately it doesn't seem to permeate beneath the righteous indignation.

I'm sorry if my empathy fatigue annoys you Pix, but you have to remember many of us have seen this time and time again, always the same story more or less, and usually the same outcome.

I basically said in my original post that knee-jerks, hot heads and cold hearts here will be counter-productive, and I stand by that - it's not the way to go, not at this stage. I also (helpfully IMO) stated how you could avoid these issues in the future without too much fuss.

If you choose to see that as lecturing and 'defending' (?!) the modder in question, then I suggest you pop a Valium and reread my post. In my own experience, it is much better to direct your anger towards problems (and solving them) than people, and to focus your energies on finding solutions not excuses.

When all said and done, I sincerely hope this all works itself out for those affected.

[RWG Technical]

Deja vu all over again...

There is nothing that this or any other forum can do to prevent these things from happening.

Those of us who have been around a few years can well remember the past experiences with other modders, this has happened, and will continue to happen, examples include:

RBJ, despite warnings over a number of years, and show and tells, and his scamming many members it went on and on until he was finally banned...

Flav, our own Lanikai knows too well the havoc this individual wrecked on many watches...a bit too hot in the kitchen and he moved on to greener pastures and despite his signature claiming that he does not do any rep work anymore, this past week two reps were being sold that he modded...

TWP, same as above, numerous warnings and many got burnt...

There are many many more modders who have come and gone.

At one time I was a real crusader for trying to inform members of what was really going on with modders, but it became such a burden and caused so many bad feelings that I gave up.

I will say this much, the garbage and poor workmanship is still going on, and many are still being fooled and taken for a ride. Only Vaccum has any clue or skills...and yes...I have seen the work of the others, from all the forums. Caveat emptor.

I hope this does work out for everyone and that time will fix it, although 5 months is a long time, 32 crystals shouldn't take that long to install.

[lanikai]

Deja vu all over again...

There is nothing that this or any other forum can do to prevent these things from happening.

Those of us who have been around a few years can well remember the past experiences with other modders, this has happened, and will continue to happen, examples include:

RBJ, despite warnings over a number of years, and show and tells, and his scamming many members it went on and on until he was finally banned...

Flav, our own Lanikai knows too well the havoc this individual wrecked on many watches...a bit too hot in the kitchen and he moved on to greener pastures and despite his signature claiming that he does not do any rep work anymore, this past week two reps were being sold that he modded...

TWP, same as above, numerous warnings and many got burnt...

There are many many more modders who have come and gone.

At one time I was a real crusader for trying to inform members of what was really going on with modders, but it became such a burden and caused so many bad feelings that I gave up.

I will say this much, the garbage and poor workmanship is still going on, and many are still being fooled and taken for a ride. Only Vaccum has any clue or skills...and yes...I have seen the work of the others, from all the forums. Caveat emptor.

I hope this does work out for everyone and that time will fix it, although 5 months is a long time, 32 crystals shouldn't take that long to install.

I was thinking not only Deja Vu.. but Deja MOO.. same ol Bull Crap...

in the Past after ZM posts these warnings.. there have been those who cry out ... saying ZM is doing this to propogate his own end.. yet the warnings come AFTER the "collision" and scene of the accident occur..

I HOPE THAT ALL HERE CAN TAKE THIS AS GOSPEL !!!

INSANITY IS DEFINED AS DOING THE SAME THING EXPECTING DIFFERENT RESULTS !!

Are we learning???.. other forums bash ZM as wanting a monopoly .. when all he is trying to do is forewarn US ALL..

the ONE Consistant you can take to the bank..

RWG may not be all the colour and dazzle of other forums... but one thing you can COUNT ON..

RWG is about knowledge gained from experience and expertise... we are a "not for profit" forum.. but you have more knowledge here than you could ever use..

the question is...

When will YOU use it ?? that will be up to you..

A~C

Lani

[therooster]

@lanikai: I didn't think you were defending Rocketeer. Also, I didn't want to imply that Rocketeer was an RWG service provider. He's just a service provider full stop, i.e. someone who provides a service. And I merely see RWG as a communication channel, not as a retailer or agent. In a nutshell, my point was that criticising members for trusting service providers (wether endorsed or not by the forum) is pointless, especially when based on very limited knowledge of the events in question (without implying that that's what you did!). Besides, it just fuels more frustration in the people who got ripped off. It's really as useful as [censored] on a bull.

I personally did all I could before sending my stuff to Rocketeer. I considered all of his posts very carefully, talked to him on the phone, researched his gen watch business, looked up his addresses, got his full name, details etc, requested a landline and mobile number, looked at samples of his work, and so forth. No one can tell me I didn't do my due diligence. The guy started off well and then things turned pear shaped very quickly. Simple as that.

A final thought for the other poster up there who called people who send their stuff to watchmakers lazy. Are you for real? Sounds to me like if one messes up a watch by working on it himself, and then spends more money and time to get it fixed, he gets laughed at for being an idiot. If someone avoids such problems by sending it to a modder of some sort before screwing it up himself, he gets called lazy. You've got to be shitting me.

Edited June 16, 2009 by therooster

[lanikai]

A final thought for the other poster up there who called people who send their stuff to watchmakers lazy. Are you for real? Sounds to me like if one messes up a watch by working on it himself, and then spends more money and time to get it fixed, he gets laughed at for being an idiot. If someone avoids such problems by sending it to a model of some sort before screwing it up himself, he gets called lazy. You've got to be shitting me.

We all would like to see this resolved for the members well being Rooster..

with that being said... I "decided" to "learn" crystal removal and install.. as I could not see the transition time and logistics back and fourth. and back again ... furthermore... I could not expect the only modder I use to spend time with dozens of watches just for what seemed like a simple enough task (to learn myself)

that would be like asking a mechanic to take in jobs and loose money doing them. (since time is $$)

the ONE thing I will say about this thread... PIX leading it ....

This is what can come out of "discussion" in a mature format.. rather than trash talking and bashing.....

and for that I thank you >.... PIX and all that have made this thread at least helpful to the NOOBS and brought to light the issues again..

A~C

Lani

[Zapadeus]

+1 to often meanwhile I am puzzled by the notion of some "senior" members.