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Everybody has in their mind's eye what the "perfect" example of a model looks like. So they build it like that and to them, it looks perfect. But to the next guy, a detail is wrong, so it's not perfect. Example: a vintage Sea Dweller can have a high dome or service dome tropic 39 crystal. Half the people like the high dome, the other half want the low dome. Both are correct. But to your eye one won't be "perfect". If you want it "perfect" you're going to have to source the best raw parts you can find, then decide what the finished piece will look like, and find a builder to make it exactly like that. When it's done, to you it will be "perfect". But to the next guy it won't.

I always see posts about how delicate some reps are or reps in general and how people somewhat baby them and daily wear with no real beating on them. I wore a nicely built Panerai 009 on a rubber strap offshore for 5 years and even sent it to the bottom a few times on an ROV manipulator arm to see what happened lol 120M of water and I still wore it for years after. I should see if I can find the screen shots from our cameras. This one now has a Rolie dial and I wear it quite a bit at home with its years of real patina Earlier this year I started using a V2 Explorer with the SA3135 on a nato strap out here and I pounded the [censored] out of it all summer long, in very hot and moist environments, constantly around 38000 kilowatts of generators, on my wrist turning wrenches and smashing the hell out of equipment with sledge hammers. This was put through abuse that it would have never seen in years of daily wrist use and the thing kept on trucking and still not without a service is running -5 sec/day. I have cleaned it up and put it on a leather strap and my fiancée wears it now alongside her gens lol My latest is a Bell & Ross BR03-92 that I picked up a few months back in a used sale on here somewhere. not sure what movement is in it as I have not opened it up yet but right now it has survived two of probably my most labor intensive hitches in a while and even its PVD coating is holding up after some nasty knocks against rough metals, tools etc.. surprisingly I like this thing as a work watch.. its had two allen head screws from the strap go missing but the strap is still holding on and I hope it does for the next two weeks until I get home. Any ways this was just my little story about my experience with reps and being really really hard on them. Cheers everyone and happy Friday from Offshore Africa !!!

Hello people.

Here is an OEM IWC 5001-04 dial The location of "SWISS MADE" is different

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Guys thanks for all your input. It's interesting to see just how much the hobby has progressed, enough for a franken watch to be mistaken for a gen. It is a happy thing for us. Given the fact that the pics are static ones on the forum, where details could be scrutinized at leisure, a well built franken in the wild would be much much harder to call out. For those of you still curious, the gen is on the left. The one on the right has almost everything gen except the midcase and bracelet. So there you have your answer. Thank you guys for participating, except for@vipassana, who thought that both watches "don't look gen". You've missed the point of the thread, Mr Vipasanna. The point is that the rep game has come very far and the worth of the gen becomes debatable to guys with resources and patience to build such frankens. I know @alteporsche has another such hulk franken and that is another impressive piece that would pass as a gen in the wild on the wrist. Kudos to guys like him and@blackboxes. The dedication and passion in guys like them are truly inspiring! I tread softly along the fine line separating raving insanity and lucid moments of ingenuity. The issue is I've no idea which is which mostly.

Yea the composition of 904L will not change and there are less than 30 foundry's world wide producing the alloy as its hard to work with, expensive to machine and with many other less costly materials out there that can do the same job better then why use it ? . I don't know if you ever see the older Rolexes and the pitting under the caseback around the oring etc.. that pitting is from the acidic reactions that can take place in 316L from salt water and your skin over time. My background in Mechanical engineering has taken me into the metallurgy field quite deeply and I have even been involved as a professional consultant in court for issues of corrosion on sea vessels that let to death or serious harm to individuals, so its somewhat of a passion of my previous career and still very much an interest. Rolex doesn't use surface hardening as they don't need to with 904, its pretty resilient to minor scratches much more so than 316 due to the higher nickel and chromium content, this also allows it to shine nicer in different angles of light. to be honest the pros of it do not offset the added cost. it seems to be a marketing thing with rolex now and well for a professional diver who is constantly saturated at depth then in 20-25 years it will be of benefit because he wont have the minor pitting on the caseback and caseback threads, but other than that its just pure marketing and prestige. and yes if reps used it then they would have to buy all new tooling to cut and machine as its hard to work with and even rolex uses a 250 ton press to get the basic shape of the watch case even before finishing as just machining will be too costly and time consuming. As for heat treating or surface treating the only manufactures I see doing this is well the obvious ones using true PVD and well Sinn and its tigimentation process that I still feel is a little bit of marketing smoke screen Cheers ! C.

hahaha I love that ! this was my idea when trying to test them in my type of environment, wanted to see the punishment the could take and still perform and look good. Nightwatch I agree ! if you get one that's good from the beginning then it will last, they don't need babying, they need to be worn and worn like you would wear any watch. I have a few old school fellas out here that have been at this for many years, we call them dinosaurs but it seems the work watch of choice back in the day was the 5513 / 5512 and 16610 submariners. I see a lot of them out here and offshore around the world and in pretty worn and loved condition... I've tried to buy a few, but no one wants to sell them. Apparently a lot of the drilling contractors used to give them as gifts to crew on board for well performing rigs back in the day. One of my safety officers here that just retired after 35 years offshore has a 5513 that looks amazing and all original that he traded with a colleague back in the late 70's for a quartz watch because the original owner of the sub said it didn't keep time well. As it turns all this watch needed was a service as it was not serviced since it was given as a gift from Saudi Armco to the guy back in the early 70's lol I have been two years trying to get this guy to sell me this watch. its an amazing watch and a great story behind it. Cheers guys !

There is wisdom, if I had used that method I would have been right 50% of the time, which is much better than my current score.

Looks like a challenging, interesting and tough line of work. As long as one is able to sort out the minor hickups in the beginning I find them to be very resilient as well, no complains yet, they stand the test of time quite well.

So that is the history of the Nastymariner ? Most imortant point of note is that the series ii you now drive is way cooler than the Disco. Disco has a better chassis though which is why I like the looks of one and the chassis of the other I'm still surprised, I thought you would be all Dana axles, small block, rock crawler

You might enjoy this old topic: http://rwg.cc/topic/2412-how-tough-is-a-rep-submariner/

Hmmm this whole 904L debate is getting old... Rolex most likely does not have its own foundry and likely buys in ingots. 904L is an ISO standard so the composition will be the same as any other 904L it is not their own formula, its a austenic low carbon stainless with higher levels of copper and molybdenum than other stainless alloys and the percentages are the same or they would not be able to call it a 904L . The major difference of 904L vs. 316 is its resistance to corrosion. This property will never be fully taken advantage of in use on a watch, it is intended for highly acidic environments. Even in constant diving conditions with acidic skin you will not see pitting in your rep Rolie for quite a while (I mean years) the major reason Rolex swapped to 904L in the 80's is because of 904's polish ability and its exclusiveness. I doubt it was any more than that. I can tell you if brushed correctly the 904L and the 316L will look the same and the only reason you will even guess as to what is the 904L is because someone is telling you one is and naturally you will look for the shiny one lol But in all honesty you will never see this used in reps, 904L is very hard to work with and hard to machine correctly in small components like a watch.

Gen is on the left. I couldn't tell so I flipped a coin and it says gen is on the left. Both superb pieces wear them well.

Jedi going gold ......................

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I wouldn't get too excited. Rolex used to use 316 like everyone else including the reps. Rolex has it's own foundry works and makes it's own 904L to it's own formula, which is chemically a little different from commercially available 904L. If Noob does start using 904L it is likely doing so for marketing reasons rather than any real World improvement on the replication. To the human eye there is precious little difference between any of the three metals and I would rather see effort going into other aspects of the replication.

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That is a very useful picture @jackflash. The hands all look just a tiny bit off, but very acceptable considering nobody is going to believe you are wearing a 200,000 Dollar watch and very few have even seen a real 5517. I certainly haven't actually seen one, only photographs and want a rep solely for my own amusement.

If the pin turns but doesn't come out, it's stripped. If the end of the screw comes thru the link, you might be able to put a punch on the screw end and press down on the link while turning the slotted end of the screw. If that doesn't work, you'll have to drill out the screw from the threaded end.

Phong cases are probably the best that WE know of. WE = RWG members. There are better case makers/detailers no doubt but they have not been 'outed' and are unknown to RWG members while their cases are out there passing as genuine. One example might be the infamous laser welded cases for sale on eBay now and then...they are genuine rotted out/damaged cases that have been welded up and detailed. I would not want one (at the going prices) but I am sure there are others that do if only because the case started out as genuine. I have one Phong case (1655) and it is top quality but just about any 'expert' seriously versed in the 1655 could probably spot it as a replica. Yuki cases seem to be top notch too, maybe not up to Phong standards, but they are about half the price. Another viable alternative is an MBW/MBK case but they are getting pricey, have faults (as do all), and need some detailing. One thing that makes a replica case appear to be genuine is the sign of day in, day out wear but many have been ruined by overly aggressive aging efforts...nicks/dents/deep scratches, beveled lug holes, deep fried dials etc. I have been wearing an MBK '5512' with 1570, Yuki dial and "Mary' folded oyster bracelet that looks pretty good (to me anyway) and when compared to a photo array of genuine 5512 watches it looks better than some and worse than others but at the price, it suits me fine. "I googled him (Phong) and a lot of information tells me he make many mistakes." Everyone in this hobby/business makes mistakes. Some are not noticed and some stand out. On a high priced case, they should not stand out. Otoh if you do not mind, it does not matter. My MBK '5512' has goofy CG (viewed from the front) and I do not mind, so it does not matter. The rest of it is A-Ok. More or less.

Pole to Pole with Mike Horn!

Hi guys. I'm just a newbie who just wrote some newbic questions for a few times. But those stupid questions are answered by friendly experts of this forum and thanks to that, I could complete my 1016 build. It was just sudden that I just fall in love with 1016 although I didn't even know if there is a watch like that before I enter this forum. I took a look at 1016 pics around this forum and google, I wanted to have both leather and folded 7836 bracelet. My 1016 build spec is as follows. Case - JMB Crown - Rep provided with JMB case set Crystal - provided with JMB case set Dial - Yuki Hands - Yuki Movement - Clone 2824(Seagull) Bracelet - Josh JMB was communicative and he is the one who answered my noob question for the most of the time. I appreciate that Justin. PM him if you want to inquire any good quality case for datejust or exlporer. -JMB : http://www.rwgforum.net/user/24124-jmb/ I'm not sure Yuki's dial and hands are correct enough but I can guarantee that they are well made with sharp&vivid printings. Lume is not bad but not superb neither. I'm saying maybe because I compared my 1016 to seiko divers which has super hyper bright lume -Yuki : www.yukiwatch.com Seagull 2824 clone movement has very beautiful decorations which is always good to have. I've heard they are reliable if I give it a good service regulary as most of other eta clone movement. -An Ebay seller : http://www.ebay.com/itm/321467374718?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT Bracelet from josh has good quality and I have some good news for you guys which is not the happiest news for me. I bought the bracelet from josh and I proceeded my purchasing of Aussy spring bars and WSO 580 endlinks because I've heard they fits well with jmb case. Moreover, I heard that endlink of josh's bracelet doesnt fit well with jmb case. So I odered bracelet from josh and also ordered wso580 endlinks and aussie spring bars. However, Josh's bracelet came to me earlier(actually I didn't even received spring bars and 580 endlinks yet. I'm in South Korea which is close to hongkong) and I found that they have really good fitting with jmb enhanced case. It fits without any modification and I just cannot find any unbalanced point. it just fits good. -Josh : www.pf-818.com -WSO : http://www.ebay.com/itm/171022393380?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT -Aussie spring bars : http://www.ebay.com/itm/351011434208?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT I posted links of each parts for future-coming noobs like me as they would be helpful. now, let me show you my 1016. Photos will tell thounds of words.

I had to take half day off rushing back home to my work bench the other day to build this piece, I called it "TC Elabore 2824 Yacht Master 16622". Before the British dial maker brought KH 16610 Dial to this community, he showed great interest in vintage Rolex Rolesium Yacht-Master 16622. He wanted to know if he could produce the vintage Yacht-Master dials, would I build a couple of YM for him and the family. Of course I would. I thought it was easy. All I need to do was to buy a couple of Factory Direct Yacht-Master from my Chinese friend. I was naive and not knowing how the Chinese repdom had evolved. The so-called "TC Factory Direct Yacht-Master 16622" were all gone. The successors are the ones with the modern 116622 bezel font and the Chinese cloned 2836 movements, which I do not fancy due to its wrong crown position and very not gen like crown shape. My Chinese friend rejected my proposal of making a small batch of the TC Factory Direct YM. Our demand was not even close to the MOQ that he could turn the machines on. It was simply not financially logical to him. Disappointed I was, so was my friend. But we can understand that being a parts manufacturer in Far East, every bit that is being produced has to be sold. It matters to my Chinese friend as well as his workers' very survival. The whole Rolesium Yacht-Master 16622 RE-LIVE project was put on hold indefinitely. "I do not have the buying power to meet your MOQ. If there's any way we can work this out. If there's something you or the syndicate behind you need, that I can provide, you let me know." I told my friend before leaving his factory in the ancient country. Earlier this year I received a call from my Chinese friend. He briefly explained how the Chinese horology industry is this year. Quite a few factories can produce quality watch parts. Quality parts that can meet toe to toe with their Swiss or other European rivals. However, the Chinese brands or the Chinese watch companies are still having big headaches dealing with after sales issues, especially with accuracy and durability issues. They need better watch movements. "Wasn't Shanghai, Seagull, and Hangzhou already good enough?" I asked. "Shanghai and Hangzhou are 2nd tier watch movement makers. They mainly serve smaller brands and watch companies domestically. The movements they made may look close to ETA, but in terms of accuracy and durability, those two makers are still not in the game." "Although the State owned Tianjin Seagull being the top tier watch movement maker in China, quality control (of the final products....the movements) is still a nightmare to watch companies who buy from Seagull." "You may find a certain percentage in each batch of delivery very good and perform on par with their Swiss counterparts. But you'll find another certain percentage perform like rubbish and the rest dead on delivery." "Seagull's employee turnover rate is at history high this year. The talented and well-trained ones didn't get a raise fast enough to balance the economic inflation within China. Once they can no longer bring home enough rice to the table, they just leave and head South for more opportunity." "We need better movements!" My friend emphasized again at the other end of the phone. Let's take a break on the story I'm telling. I want to spend a minute and walk you through the components of "TC Elabore 2824 Yacht-Master 16622". The first and most profound upgrade on TC Elabore 2824 YM is the Kensington High 16622 Dial. According to the maker, KH 16622 Dial plate is made of German silver, which is a white colored copper alloy and a common material being used to manufacture high end movement's main plates by most of Swiss watch giants. The other compounds remain the maker's trade secrets. The dimensions of KH 16622 Dial's hour markers or indices are ever so slightly different to the 16610LV's. The triangle at 12 and the rectangle at 6 and 9 have to just be a tad bit more slender than the ones on the 16610LV dial. This in my opinion makes the craft even harder. Nonetheless, the polishing job on the hour markers were done just tremendously awesome. Bear in mind the polishing and lume job on hour markers are done by hand instead of machine. There is no way the dial maker could mass produce this kind of dials given the fact he is doing this for fun. I have already talked about the print job in "KH 16622 Dial First Look". Handling the KH 16622 Dial while assembling the watch, I couldn't help but suspect the British dial maker, a gen Rolex dial maker gone rogue. After seeing how good the KH Dials are, I couldn't go back and use the 16622 V1 hands anymore. The hands and the dial have to match. They have to match in visual quality, in craftsmanship, and in harmony of reflections of light. The Date Wheel Overlay also, is playing a significant part of visual harmony when reading the watch face. It sits right under the cyclops. So, it has to be centered vertically and horizontally within the date window and cyclops. I pay special attention to the DWO's position during each of my build. However, once a while I still get emails from members with Replica Owner Syndrome complaining about the position. I am not going to gripe over tiny variances that exist even in gen units. TC Elabore 2824 YM comes with "TC 16622 Hands Set V2" and "TC DWO V4". TC Elabore 2824 YM case set, bezel assembly, insert, and 78760 bracelet are from the same Chinese manufacturer that made "TC FD YM". Although being a 2015 remake in very limited volume, it shares the same gene traits to its 2012 batch. The material being used to produce the case, bezel, and bracelet is 316L stainless steel. Unlike its 316F brother, 316L is a tad whiter under light and is a tad harder to machine. Which resembles the material character of gen Rolex 904L stainless steel, a Rolex Proprietary steel alloy. What I like about TC FD YM case: 1. It has the correct vertical crown position which gracefully houses any 2824 movements. 2. Unlike the modern 116622 reps, it has the correct crown guard shape that gorgeously embraces the 7 mm crown. Gen Yacht Master bezel gives the wearer a solid and springy feedback when turning it. One would hear a crisp "ding" on each click. Do not expect the same gen feedback and click sound on the rep despite how indistinguishable it looks to a gen Yacht-Master 16622. I want to point that the bezel turning on this YM is still a bit on the softer side. My hunch to answer the secret is machining tolerance. However, I don't think my Chinese friend could break the machining bottleneck in making the bezel assemblies. No matter how I tweak the click spring, the tolerance is there. So if the bezel turning feedback and the click sound is something you would nick pick about, DO NOT buy it. Another imperfection I mentioned in "TC Factory Direct YM" and I want to point it out again is that there are tiny sand blasted pits on the bezel insert. The 2012 batch had them. The 2015 batch still has them. It's not easy to see them with naked eyes, but with a loupe there are everywhere on the insert. It's one imperfection the Chinese maker couldn't eliminate due to sand blasting process. Despite I categorize the blasted pits on the insert an imperfection, a senior member told me that gen YM has them, especially those made in circa 2000 to 2006. He would not categorize it an imperfection since vintage gens were made with the same manufacturing process, thus shares the same product characteristics. But gen owners would not complain about it to Rolex. A gen owner blogged about it on Timezone thinking it is a plus, a character, and a human touch from Rolex technician. TC Elabore 2824 YM comes with "2015 TC 78760 Bracelet". I did not name it "78760 Bracelet V2" because it is not. It is a 2015 remake of the old TC 78760 Bracelet. Everything is the same except the end link is slightly wider to fit the mid case tightly. The 2015 remake has the end link in 20.15 +/- 0.02 mm both ends. I get great visual pleasure after fitting a 2015 TC 78760 bracelet into a YM mid case. Members who own a modern 6 digit serial Submariner 116610 or a Yacht-Master 116622 may feel disappointed how flimsy a classic 5 digit Submariner 16610's bracelet is. Rolex made the vintage 5 digit Submariner 16610's bracelet with hollow links in order to cut excessive weight. It has practical reasons in that era. If you are one of those who prefers how the modern 6 digit Rolex's solid bracelet feels, 78760 bracelet will not let you down. You will feel the solidness, the proper and yet very well balanced weight of this 1997 debuted solid mid link 78760 bracelet. TC Elabore 2824 Yacht Master 16622 comes with "TC Elabore 2824 Movement". Earlier this year, my Chinese friend wanted to know how well my "TC 2824 movements" perform in terms of accuracy and durability. As I stated above, they needed better movements. So, I shipped a tray to let him to see for himself. Within a month I received another call from him. "If you will help us to reach a merchandising deal with your new movement maker, we will help you make a small batch of the old Yacht Master." "What's the catch?" I was alerted. "My friend, you have to understand with our fast growing middle class, the Chinese wants and needs better quality goods." "Jiangsu province alone has 2 times the population than California. And Jiangsu holds only 5.9% of the Chinese population." "There is no catch. We do not have connections to your movement maker. Being red necks from rural China and not well educated, we need someone's help to reach a deal with your respected movement maker." "Well, that I can be of some help." I said. The very reason I call it "Elabore 2824" because this is the elabore grade of TC 2824 movement. Some members claimed TC 2824 China made movement. I didn't bother to explain because numbers will speak for it self. Some parts within may be imported from other countries, but it is cut, assembled, fine tuned, and QAed on this land, by its people. It's American. What are the difference between Standard grade and Elabore grade or even COSC candidate Top grade? There are several variables and several criteria a movement that have to match the performance before it is branded Standard, Elabore, or the COSC candidate Top grade. In plain English, a Standard grade 2824 movement has to run within +/-12 seconds per day on CH (dial facing up) and 6H (6 o'clock facing up) when fully wound. Max variation on all positions is 30 seconds per day. That means a watch with a Standard grade movement will probably gain or lose maximum 30 seconds each day. An Elabore grade 2824 movement has to run within +/- 7 seconds per day on CH, 6H, and 9H when fully wound. Max variation on all position is 20 seconds per day. A top grade 2824 movement has to run within +/- 4 seconds per day on all 5, CH, 6H, 9H, 3H, and FH positions. Max variation on all position is 15 seconds per day. The timegraph of this very Elabore 2824 movement within this "TC Elabore 2824 YM" you are looking at is performing a COSC candidate Top grade gen ETA 2824-2 movement would perform. A gen Rolex 3135 can easily run worse than this specific TC Elabore 2824. I am not telling or making promises here to members that you will receive COSC performing movement if you are acquiring "TC Elabore 2824 YM". I am stating how good a "TC Elabore 2824 Movement" could be. Before I begin building each unit, the movement is clocked, adjusted (if needed), then clocked again on my machine when finished. It is then going through a 14 days real life timing checks on my rotating machine which simulates everyday wear. I will provide a written report of the final readings in the package. However, if upon receiving the unit your time is off by xx seconds, don't email me and ask me what's wrong. Variations are UNAVOIDABLE. Mechanical watches are not atomic clocks! The accuracy of a movement can be thrown off by a variety of factors. The length of how long a movement stay within standards also varies. If you are anal about DEAD ON accuracy, look for a qualified watchmaker or modder to make the fine tuning. The yacht and the Yacht Master. Gentlemen, that is about the quick look at TC Elabore 2824 Yacht Master 16622. Thanks for reading. TC 08/05/15 After note: Some members may ask why the manufacturer won't use 904L? The Chinese Bao Steel and An Steel both manufacture their own version of 904L steel. It won't be so much trouble and cost to use the Chinese 904L steel. Don't be fooled by the Rolex code designation. According to the maker, the only other stainless steel on this planet that has the same machining and complete product character of Rolex 904L is Allegheny Ludlum's AL-6XN. But for some reasons, they couldn't get their hands on the AL-6XN. Do you know, we used to make the world's best marine time pocket watch? Do you know that Hamilton and Waltham were original American watch companies? I am very happy our Chinese friends are buying the most important part of the watch, the movement, from us. I am even happier they are putting our movements in their local brand watches instead of reps. We may actually reclaim our position in the horological world again like we once did. Some members complained about the lengthy turnaround time. Some who would not wait simply buy parts and bits from me then build the watch themselves or have their local watchmakers assembling for them. If you know a bit or two about watchmaking, I'd be more than happy to pass you the parts and bits. I would actually encourage you to do so. I've found joy and peace of mind assembling TC Subs and now TC YM. I believe you could, too. However, if you're buying parts and bits just to have your local watchmaker to build it for you to save time, I would recommend you to carefully select your watchmaker. After all, to complete a TC Sub or YM takes time, patience, skills, and also some rep know hows. Even the tiniest mistake can render a part/parts useless. If your watchmaker screwed up during a build, and pin it on the part/parts being defect that is not fair to me. Please remember watch making isn't an exact science. One would need an artisan's mind and steady hands to do so. I can provide you with some recommendations of modders/watchmakers which I have worked with in the past may that be in the US, EU, or Asia. Please remember that as I have mentioned times and again, building these units is my hobby and my escape from troubles. It brings me a peace of mind. I do not charge members for my labor. However, my personal estimate of a fair market value of TC Sub or TC YM including labor is well over US$1,000. So, if your modder does a good job, please pay fairly to your watchmaker.