TeeJay

Boo Hoo. Off-topic it might have been, but it was IN CONTEXT as a reply of my conversation with TTK. Whiny? I'm not one of the people whining about prices being too high, infact, I've said several times that my opinion is it costs what it costs and either pay the price, save for the price, or look for cheaper alternatives. I've never actually said anything about getting prices lowered. If I have, please quote where I did so. I'd love to see how well that attitude serves you on an auction site where you don't have a forum full of willing buyers to choose from On RWG you don't choose Dealer, Dealer chooses you! Feels? You think I'm imagining not receiving goods for nearly 12 weeks? You think I imagined making the paypal payment to Silix? You think I imagined the email telling me that the goods would be shipped out? Silix is nothing more than a drop-shipping liar. Oh, but I forgot, 'recommended' dealers here don't rip off people do they.....That only happens on CQout.... Got a good one, thanks, that's why, as I said above, I'm not chasing down the parts I'm owed. That's not going to stop me from pointing out the lies in the Forum Propoganda. You're not?? Now that is funny

On RWG, you don't choose Dealer, Dealer chooses you [Edit to add] Yes, I know it was a joke

Oh dear, talk about sour grapes because I'm not grovelling to do business with you I don't think my opinion is worth more or less than anyone else's opinion. As you say, opinions are like arseholes and everyone has one. As I said before, and which clearly went over your head, I was not talking about MY OPINION, I was talking about an opinion which permeates forums. So people don't know who I am. I couldn't care less. I wouldn't expect people to know me, and don't desire the attention, once more, you are using totally false choices to try and deflect the discussion from the actual issue: Forum Propoganda = Only 'recommended collectors' are honest. All auction site sellers are scammers. That is what I object to, and what does nothing to help people who are afraid to think outside the box. As Ken mentioned with the shooting fish in a barrel scenario. Dealers who pay to sell here are effectively having the customers funnelled to them. I wonder how well those same dealers would fare if they had to rely on auction sites, where all transactions are visible and no negative rep goes unread or unregistered, and having to directly compete with other sellers. Sure, there's competition here, but not like there would be on an auction site. It's easy to act like a big fish when you're in a small pond. Boo Hoo. So it's my time to waste. If people don't want to read what I write, they can put me on ignore. Funny how the dissenting voices are always ridiculed and marginalized. Sounds somewhat fascistic to me... On RWG, you don't choose Dealer, Dealer chooses you Sure they're still doing business, but as Pug pointed out above, their business practices have changed. They knew they'd pushed their luck as far as it would go, people called them on it, and they've made changes. Obviously, not as futile an effort as your pissing in the wind comment would encourage someone to think... Out of curiousity, why would you not want them banned? It would potentially increase business for you, but also, allowing them to remain sets the rather dangerous precedent for dealers caught lying, being allowed to retain their 'recommended' status. On a forum established to protect buyers from unscrupulous dealers, that comes across as a somewhat hypocritical stance to have been taken by the powers that be. MY chosen price policy?? Think back there, I'm not the one complaining that something I want costs X and I only want to pay Y for it. I clearly said, and another member quoted me on it, that my opinion has always been "It costs what it costs." If I don't like the price, I go elsewhere for something, I don't try and get the price reduced. Absolutely so. Personally, I've nearly reached the limit of what watches I actually want. Sure, there are a few projects I'd like to do (like a vintagized Planet Ocean) and I'll probably continue to order watches for folks as gifts, but, once I've got the watches I want for my collection, I just won't need to buy anymore. That's not a case of going along with an organized boycott (which I agree, is not going to happen) it's just a case of once I have what I want, I won't be wanting anything else. Depends on if that person is someone who buys watches for their collection wants to have a load they never wear, but aren't specific about what they want. As mentioned elsewhere, I collect to a pattern: Movie memorabelia. Once I have the 'movie watches' (and the few projects) I want, I highly doubt I'd buy anything else. Of course, that's not to say that there won't be some super nice watch that I decide I really want, but, if I did make that choice, it would be one I would wear, rather than one that would be a 'box filler', and it would have to be something pretty special to capture my attention enough to want it, AND fit the criteria I have for wearing a watch (primarily ease of visibility). Although as you pointed out above, people know that A&J are liars, yet still choose to take the risk of buying from them. I think that that at the core, freedom of choice, rather than enforced opinion, is the key issue I was refering to. And as I said above, sure, there are a few who forget the risk, but they are not ones who become repeat clients. They are the 'who has the best Sub??' crowd who convince themselves that they are buying dirt-cheap discounted gens rather than copies. As I said, no-one begrudges dealers reasonable expenses which come with the nature of this illegal business. What people object to, is people who, when called out on an issue, cry "But it's an illegal business, I don't want my front door kicked in and get black-bagged* by the federales for selling illegal goods which I made an informed choice to sell" That kind of crybaby bullock faeces just pisses people off. Can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Applys to any job whatever it might be, from stacking supermarket shelves, selling videos, selling cars, selling insurance, rocket scientist, brain surgeon, or even designing tattoos ( ) whatever line of business someone may be in, if you don't want to do it, don't do it, do something else, just don't [censored] and moan about it when called out. (For the record, I am not saying that this is something that you personally do, just illustrating the behaviour which others have exhibited) You make it sound like I don't have a choice, and that I am being 'punished'/missing out on something by using CQout... As I said previously, I've never had a problem with those sites which wasn't immediately and satisfactorily resolved. Shame I can't say the same about my transactions with 'recommended' dealers. Funny how even now, I still get PMs asking for the source of my watches. If they were as bad as some would make out (sure, I know they're not perfect, but they're certainly good enough for my purposes) people wouldn't be asking me about them. Likewise, I've said what I need to say and made the points as clear as possible. If people have a question about that, they can feel free to ask me for clarification. I've never accused you of ripping anyone off, so unless that is an admission of guilt, I will take it as amusing sarcasm * Reference to how political dissidents and other undesireables were arrested in the movie V For Vendetta

Indeed. Time will tell if things remain thus, or if there will indeed be reports in the future of 'serviced/waterproofed' watches leaking or running dryer than what goes on after Choir Practice with Father Chester

And if palm pressure isn't enough, both thumbs forcing in oposite directions should be enough to open it

The $64,000 Question though, is would The Cartel have become more honest in their descriptions and practices had those threads not been posted...

But that is entirely the point I have been trying to illustrate! It is an opinion which has evolved on the forums, and is perpetuated by them. It might well be the mass consensus, but that does not make it a fact, because the FACT is that there ARE other dealers elsewhere who are capable of providing a good product and service, rather than the impression given that ALL dealers apart from the ones 'recommended', are scammers, and that is just not true. Also, this is not a case of our opinions being different, I can totally respect that. The point I am illustrating, as above, is not a case of your opinion or my opinion, just that the 'overall forum opinion' about 'off-site' dealers, is simply misleading. Again, I totally agree with you there. That said, on a personal level, I don't feel that such acts of generousity should be used to overlook/justify/cover up the lies that were made. As I've said before, it doesn't matter if someone lies a little, or lies a lot. A liar is a liar, and can only be trusted to lie. But that's not really the issue of this topic. Again, no argument, of course there are going to be a few 'bad apples', but, as I mentioned previously, on those sites, if a dealer is complained about by buyers, they are removed from the site. I've seen it happen on LoudFrog (which also, as point of note, does have a community forum) and I have no doubt that it would also happen on eBay and CQout. I've said several times about how disatisfied I am with the service I got from Silix. I think it would be fair to say that they scammed me as I am still waiting for goods paid for nearly three months ago... I've also pointed out the lies of A&J, as have others. And, I primarily, buy from auction sites, because in matters like this, I prefer to trust my own instincts rather than follow the flock, and, as mentioned before, my only serious issues have been when dealing with a 'recommended dealer', where any minor glitches with auction sellers, have been immediately and satisfactorily remedied. Again, only my experience, but it does rather support the opinion that the opinion "Only forum dealers are honest, off-site dealers are all scammers!" is nothing more than propoganda and rhetoric for the masses. Absolutely, and in most cases, those scammers are immediately banned. Why Admin has not banned A&J, I will never understand, as I feel the evidence there would be more than enough to get any other newcoming dealer barred, and the way that they have lied and manipulated people, should be enough to make folks realize "Sure, they were okay in the past, but aren't as trustworthy now, and something should be done to protect forum buyers from them" Afterall, that is why forums like this exist: To protect buyers. As I mentioned above, nearly a 3 month wait on a jubilee bracelet and new watch dial from Silix. No communication, no parcels in the mail, nothing. If I was to email, I'm sure something would arrive within a few weeks, but I'm not prepared to chase such trivial items, and it's not my job as a buyer, to make sure that he, as a dealer, makes good on his promises. If he tells me a dial will be shipped, then I expect it shipped. If it gets confiscated by customs, (which has never happened with any of my purchases) then I would at the very least, expect an email informing me of this, and an option of either another delivery, or a refund. Now, I've had no positive outcome on that issue. What will me complaining about it on the board achieve? In terms of getting the goods sent, absolutely nothing. In terms of maybe informing people that Silix is a lying drop-shipper, it might be of use... As for unhappy experiences off-board, then it's just a case of common sense and the usual rules apply. Read the feedback, both positive and negative, evaluate the product, ask questions, and if happy, go for it. If not, look elsewhere. As long as people use those simple guidelines, they should have no reason to fall victims to the more obvious scammers who have not already been removed from the sites. Absolutely so. That said, if buyers demands are reasonable, and a seller is simply not prepared to be reasonable, then their moving on is no big loss. That's absolutely fair enough, but at the end of the day, yes, this is an illegal business, but at the end of the day, that is a fact which all dealers were aware of when getting into the business, and a choice they made to accept themselves, and while there are certain aspects of it which translate into costs, that does not mean that dealers have the right to keep turning round and saying "This is an illegal business, I don't want to go to jail shipping this or that..." If that's really the opinion someone has, then don't be a dealer anymore. If someone isn't happy in their job (and this is an opinion which I apply to any job) then they should quit and get a new one. I know a few people might forget that the rep-trade is illegal, but the vast majority know and accept that, know that certain factors involve certain costs, and don't begrudge dealers those costs. What they DO begrudge, is ludicrously priced watches like the HBB, which, at the end of the day, is just a watch with a notoriously unreliable movement inside, and when this fact is mentioned, dealers turn round and say "Oh but I have all these risks to deal with!" as if that in itself is justification for the price. Sorry, but that's just a deflection tactic by triggering guilt and sympathy. Yes, there are risks, some create legitimate costs, others, ie the mechanics of the watch itself, do not, and those are the costs which people are objecting to, but getting fobbed off with a guilt-trip from someone who, at the end of the day, feels the risks are too great, could simply cut their losses and retire. As I said above, my opinion has always been "It costs what it costs", so that's not something I object to. As for 'pi55ing off to QCout', I'd much rather do that and stick with the dealer I know I can trust, from MY OWN personal experience. Infact, the only times I do use a different dealer, is if there is a watch which my own dealer cannot acquire for me (as I did with the VCO I reviewed) If that means using a forum dealer, then that doesn't bother me, as I've been trying to say, the only thing that bothers me, is that there are a load of dealers who choose not pay to sell here, are still perfectly trustworthy and capable of delivering a product as promised, but being tarnished by the rhetoric and propoganda that any dealer other than a 'recommended dealer' is a scammer.

Having tried one one a fortnight ago, I know the Breitling isn't one I'll be adding to my collection any time soon, however, that is the one I'd suggest. Sure, a Planet Ocean on SS is going to go under a cuff, but it's still a big watch, and (although I admitedly didn't compare them side by side) the Breitling wore much smaller than the Planet Ocean. For sheer aesthetics, I'd say wear a 111h, but again, the size under a cuff might prove an issue... Best of luck with things, and as others have said, congrats on the new gig

Regardless of sellers paying to sell here, that is just utter garbage. This forum, and others like it, exist to protect members from scam artists, and allow a forum for communication and community. Having 'recommended collectors', is just (depending on one's view) a bonus. Even if there were no sellers here at all, the community aspects of this (and other) forum(s) would still remain. To think otherwise is sheer arrogance on the part of dealers, and such attitudes are one of many issues that buyers are starting to take objections to. And once more, that is a false argument. I never said that you did say that it was. I was not speaking solely about you, but an overall opinion which has developed and is perpetuated by the purchassing members. What is ALLEGED about the 'little white lies' thread? What is ALLEGED about the 'Time has come to say something' thread? They contain proof and facts, there is nothing alleged about those accusations at all. Oh I agree, such sites might not have forums, but what does that have to do with anything? The are SALES SITES. All they need to do is have sales. They don't HAVE to have discussion forums at all. As with your other point, you are creating a false argument. Sure, a dealer on CQout might not get ragged like A&J have been, but they can still be removed from the site if the admin receive complaints about them. Sure, there might not be a forum, but they are still bound to a code of conduct which the site upholds, so the issue of a forum is utterly irrelevent. I hate to disagree, but that simply hasn't been my experience at all. I've never had a problem telling a dealer I had to wait for a cheque to clear before I could place an order and having them hold the goods. I quite agree with that, but what does income or assets have to do with anything? From what I understand, people object to the prices of the new reps because they feel that the item is not worth the price charged. That's not to say that they CAN'T afford it, just that they feel it's an unjustified cost. As with anything, be it a watch, a pair of shoes, even just a CD, my opinion has always been "It costs what it costs" If one can afford it, buy it. If one can't afford it, save up. If one doesn't agree with the price, seek out a cheaper alternative...

I've had good results with a set of ordinary kitchen rubber gloves...

Sorry, but I've got to disagree there. I've had nothing but excellent service from dealers from such sites, and never had a problem with customs seizures. However, comments like "customs intercepted parcel..." "Item failed QC..." (from a drop-shipper who is physically incapable of QCing said product) I've only encountered in my dealings with 'recommended dealers', so forgive me for being somewhat scheptical, and feeling that people are being led (intentionally or otherwise) to believe that the sources here are the only sources. As before, I'm not trying to tar everyone with the same brush, but I don't think that it can be ignored, that the overwhelming opinion is that these are the only sources, when infact there are plenty of other sources available if people choose to use them. Also, when someone posted photos from such a site, it was imediately classed as a 'scam site', simply because it was not 'recommended. As you say yourself : If they are happy with their product (and as long as it is not a fraudulent sale) then where is the problem? I never did, so that's somewhat a false choice. All I pointed out, was that the forum consencus is that the recommended dealers can do no wrong (even when just the opposite has been proven on numerous occasion on a whole range of issues from prices to product accuracy to promises made by those dealers) and it gives the impression (again, intentionally or otherwise) that any other source is untrustworthy, when that simply is not the case. And on that point, I completely agree with you. Anyone (who knows the histories and practices of the dealers mentioned) can avoid the hooks and avoid them. Not everyone new here has that knowledge, so are more likely to 'follow the pack' in thinking that the listed sources are the only trustworthy ones. I think the 'fish in a barrel' belief is more a case of how certain dealers view the forums and the people who read them.

'For the most part' is not so much the issue here, and this is not about 'Cartel Bashing', but the 'fish in a barrel' scenario which Ken brought up, and TTK outright said does not exist. As I said above, I entirely agree with TTK, people can buy from whoever they want, but, the discussions generated on the forum could, to the uninitiated, create the utterly false impression that the dealers here are the only reputeable dealers available anywhere, and this is simply not the case. Sure, some of the dealers on the sales sites like CQout or LoudFrog might not have access to the Super Reps, and sure, some of them might be more expensive than the 'recommended collectors', but, some of them are cheaper. Barring manufacturing flaws on two watches (which my dealer promptly replaced without any hassle or attempts to screw more money out of me), and a different drop-shipping dealer delivering the wrong watch (which they also replaced without hassle) the only time I have actually had a problem with the transaction of a deal, was while using a 'recommended collector'. The only time I have read about watches not being as promised (ie serviced or waterproofed) was, once again, when people had brought from (a different) 'recommended collector'. Now, I'm not saying that all the 'recommended collectors' here are distrustworthy or that they should all be tarred with the same brush, all I am saying, is that if people are prepared to look around, or know contacts, they can get reasonable watches at reasonable prices, without a lot of the troubles I've read about on the forums, or experienced myself (coming up on 12 weeks and still no replacement dial as promised by the 'recommended collector', nor the jubilee bracelet which was purchassed and paid for at the same time and never arrived) and, as TTK pointed out, people are free to do that. But, as mentioned, the impression given, certainly to the untrained eye, is that these 'recommended collectors' are the only reliable sources anywhere, and a newcomer is as likely to go with the group line, rather than think to look elsewhere, hense, the 'fish in a barrel' situation mentioned by Ken. Sure, it might be a 'self-imposed' situation, but little is done to discourage it, or to encourage people to explore other potential sources.

Sure, the door's always open and people have the freedom to choose as they like, but, don't forget, that the major opinion generated by the forum, is that only forum recommended dealers are trustworthy, and that all external dealers are scam artists, and every time a new person comes to the forum and sees that majority opinion, it does not give them the confidence/desire/inspiration to consider looking elsewhere, so, as you say, yes, the door's always open, but, the fish in a barrel analogy certainly applies for making people think that the sources here are the only sources...

Something else that can be done, is when closing the clasp, hold the diver's extension in place with the thumb and middle finger, then use the index finger as a pivot for 'the fold'. Once the clasp is pretty much closed, just slide the thumb up, to apply the pressure to close the main clasp completely. Sure, it's annoying when a diver's extension works itself loose, but, it's not an insurmountable problem. Of course, the other good option is to swap the bracelet for the rubber strap Much more comfortable than the SS bracelet

"Who is Number One??!!" "You are, Number Six..." Took me ages to finally hear that in the credits, but one Number Two finally put the right emphasis to make it clear

. [Double Post]

Someone wouldn't have to be an extremist to find that comment offensive...

Theoretically, if someone had access to the suitable tools and had the necessary skills, I'm sure such a think would be physically possible. The question that one must ask though, is is the payoff worth all that fuss...

On a personal level, I'd say if it's a sale/trade photo, then it should be un-touched (other than re-sizing the image) If it's purely a display shot, then sure, why not be artistic. On a technical level, I think catalogues and whatnots often have a blurb stating that the purchased product might not exactly match the stock photo. Maybe that kind of standard might be worth considering, providing such disclaimers are clearly displayed.

Actually, it'll get you a flogging, or a stoning (both potentially fatal) but nothing as spectacular as a decapitation There can be only one! Couldn't've said it better myself

I think that to be the most likely reason

It's never easy to lose a friend, just take your time and take it a day at a time. Best wishes and peace to all involved.

For something to be considered theft, it must be taken from a public place, there must be witnesses, and it must not be motivated by hunger or malice (ie forced to do it) Of course, the punishment for theft is rather severe by Western standards, but, then again, maybe if such punishments were carried out here, maybe our 'career criminals' would think twice about risking an appendage That said, I quite agree, the money there is real. That's not to say that the folks have good taste (lime green lambos )

I miss this watch a load, I can't wait to get it back from the watchsmith who's cleaning the movement. All it'll need is the new caseback, and it'll be as good as new

Glasses... I forgot about those, as I've never really considered them as jewellery or even an optional accessory. For sunglasses, I wear Oakley Juliets, and my regular prescription glasses are Alain Mikli frames