eddhead

Priceless. I am LMAO!! I hate that guy!! Really made my day. Someone should send this to Oberman.

The subject of article number 2 is a boyhood hero. New York Yankee fans may remember Bobby Mercer as a star outfielder for the Yankees and the Giants in the 70's and 80's, and a current day broadcaster. Mercer is currently undergoing experimental treatment for brain cancer. His outlook and disposition are more than inspirational.. they challenge me to prioritize, to and to value every new day as a gift. To me this article, and the one that precedes it are life lessons on grace and dignity. Again, I hope you enjoy them. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/09/sports/b...agewanted=print May 9, 2008 TV SPORTS Murcer the Author Tells of His Life and New Yogiism By RICHARD SANDOMIR Bobby Murcer did not expect to write his autobiography so soon, but in 11 days, on his 62nd birthday,

As I get older, I find myself reflecting more and more on life's circumstances and priorities. This article, and the one that follows touched me to the point of tears. I hope you enjoy it. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/11/sports/f...ml?ref=football May 11, 2008 CHEERING SECTION Dying of Cancer, but Full of Life Lessons By VINCENT M. MALLOZZI Pittsburgh wide receiver Hines Ward arrived for this month

Oh no, i am not falling for THAT trickery again... I am not posting here, understand!?

you said "PUD KNOCKER"... heh-heh

wow, that would be awesome. the RWGWSOP!!

Agreed, they are using your computer as a 'zombie'. do you have up date virus protection?

i would like to play as well if we play hold'em. up to 2/4 with or without limit.

Thanks Ken.

Once again for the sake of brevity I will not revisit in the entirety issues concerning the possible use of forced child labor to manufacture goods branded and distributed legitimately. Anyone interested in my view on that can review one of my many prior posts. I have to draw the line somewhere and this is where I choose to. Throughout this thread I have done my utmost to refrain from personalizing this debate, preferring instead to comment on the arguments and the posts, but never the people who write them. For the most part others have done the same when taking the opposite view. I appreciate that to the extent that the people who participate here have shown a certain amount of respect and maturity that is a positive reflection on this board. However, there have been a few posts that have been a bit disappointing with respect to their tone and level of sarcasm. That is too bad. At the end of the day, I am sure we will all do what we feel we need to or what we think is the right thing to do. I am not at all certain that forced labor is used to produce the parts that make our watches, but given the nature of this trade, until I am somehow assured, I am done with it.

@kenberg. I do understand your argument. As I stated previously, I can accept a point of view that resists boycotting because of a lack of emperical evidence tying forced labor to rep part manufacturing. I do not agree with it but I accept it. I have a problem with arguments that suggest forced child labor is no worse a sin than copyright infringement, or that somehow it is on par with interrupting efforts on the part of Rolex to contribute to charitable causes, or that as a group we are not worthy of making a stand because we are involved in an illegal activity, or that the Times is somehow making an editorial stand (as opposed to reporting on a legitimate news story) and as a result has no credibility on this issue or arguments that associate forced labor with voluntary labor. Sorry, but those arguments are pure drivel poor rationalizations. And those of you who ARE looking for evidence that forced child labor may be being used to produce replica merchandise should read the link in rodwc's last post. That is pretty strong stuff. And I know it exists in other parts of the world. To me that is an argument to discontinue buying all replica goods.

i was not going to comment further on this, but I feel compelled to agree with Juan and others on this point. I will accept a point of view that stipulates that without proof that child slave labor is used, it is needless to boycott this trade. I do not agree with it, but I accept it. What I find patently absurd is the notion that because the nature of this hobby is illegal anyway, child slave labor is no worse than other characteristics of replica trading such as copyright infringements, counterfitting, tax evasion etc... That is like saying jaywalking is as bad as murder because they are both illegal. I am sorry but anybody who thinks we have no right to take a stand on this issue because the very nature of this hobby is all illegal anyway is just rationalizing, as is anyone who considers child slave labor the equivalent of a 12 year old taking a legitimate job of her/his own volition.

Good read. I was in HK last year and was also amazed at the availability and price of gen watches. Like you I visited the Panerai boutique in Princes building and came away thinking that I will never be able gto wear my 029 again LOL... the IWC boutique was awesome too.. they had Cousteau left and I could have picked it up for about USD 7400 or so, Ended up getting a great deal on Aquatimer... 30% of list which is the watch I wanted anyway. Thanks for the post

This thread got a lot of traffic while I was out last night. After reading through the posts, I am not sure there is much more to add people feel the way they do and I doubt anyone's mind will be changed. I understand Ken and other's view that child slave labor is not necessarily used in the factories that manufacture the parts used to make our watches. I also understand the perspective that legitimate businesses may be sourcing parts from factories staffed with child slave labor. Still, my view has not changed. I just think there is a much stronger likelihood that these factories are guilty of this kind of behavior than there is that factories that produce goods for legitimate businesses are. I might be wrong, but that is how I feel. At the end of the day, everyone has to make their own choice. Anyway, thanks for keeping the discussion so civil.

I am sorry to one and all.. I got a bit depressed and by this and tied one on. I am am no condition to reespn=md tonite but will read the posts and follow up tomorrow. Again sorry if I offendd anyohone

Ken, I appreciate your views but I disagree with your conclusions, the gist of which seems to be shared by the majority. For the sake of brevity, I will resist from repeating my response to those conclusions which is documented in previous posts on this thread. I am not trying to offend anyone, nor am I trying to be preachy or insular and I truly hope no one is offended. But the prospect of purchasing goods potentially produced from the fruit of of Child Slave Labor mortifies me. I realize I can never be 100% sure that goods purchased in dept stores are also not so produced. All I can do is make a best effort.

Mitton, I do not consider this an attack on Chinese people in general, nor do I view the article as such. Without going into detail, you might be surprised by the level of sympathy and empathy I have for the Chinese, largely as a result of some of my personal relationships. As I said previously, you'll find bad actors any place throughout the world. In my view, what makes the Chinese more susceptible this kind of thing is the lack of regulatory support. Quite simply stated, industry in China has grown at faster pace than than regulatory infrastructure is able to support. Under similar circumstances I am certain other countries would experience similar results. But that does not make me feel any better about supporting these businesses. As a matter of conscious, I feel compelled to ask others not to as well.

Thank you for the clarification, but let me assure you I am not as insular as you may think. I have traveled the world too, and while I have never been to China, I have been to HK, Spore, Malaysia, throughout Europe and have visited a number of third world nations in Latin America. Still, I do not want to make this about me so I will resist from commenting further on my experiences and observations. It is equally appalling that children are kidnapped and forced into labor in other locations. As far as I know, I do not support businesses in those locations that avail themselves to forced child labor, and I do not intend to support businesses in China that do so either You are missing the point. I have no doubt that these conditions exist throughout the world. The difference is that I do not support them through the expenditure of my hard earned dollars, or at least I do not make a conscious effort to do so. And in defense of the Times, where they discover instances of Child abuse throughout the World, they report on them. Witness the series of articles Nick Kritoff did last year on Child Sex Trafficing in Africa. I did not bring that to the attention of this forum because it was not germane to our hobby. The Chinese factories are. Perhaps not, but as I have posted previously, I can only do the best I can. We cannot be certain that the goods that end up on Western shelves are "sociallhy audited" but we can have a reasonable expectation that they are. In any event, it is likely that black market goods are not. You have to draw the line somewhere. Agreed that Western Trade and the influx of foreign capital have fueled economic growth in China and as a result have led to increased living standards. Somehow I think that has more to do with legitimate trade facilitated through legitimate Western Corporations and businesses than it does with black market trade I do support the efforts of the Chinese people and do not think this indicative of their culture or values. You can go anywhere and find bad actors. As a matter of course, I do not stereotype people. But you cannot excuse this level of child abuse and where you find it you need to act on it. I applaud the efforts of the NY Times in doing so, and cannot understand how you can label the publication of a legitimate news story as propoganda.

Thank you for the defense but I am not going to address the personal attacks. Instead I will stick with substance of the article which provides evidence that these children are being KIDNAPPED and FORCED into labor or are being SOLD into indentured servitude. I am sorry to keep harping on this, and I do not want to come across as preachy but this is a point that seems to escape some of the replies on this thread. I mean good Lord, KIDNAPPING children and using them as SLAVE Labor, forcing them to work 300 hours a month??? That is the equivalent of 1 2/3 full time jobs. You really think this is the same as operating a paper route?? I realize I cannot prevent it, and I realize I cannot determine with any certainty where and when it happens, but once again, my intuition tells me it is far more likely to be prevalent in the factories we buy our goods from than it is in the ones Dell sources or owns. Like I said previously, I can only do the best I can. And yes, it is true that 13 year olds work all over the world. But they are not forced into labor, they are not threatened with death should they try to leave, and they do not work 300 hours a week in unsafe conditions at the expense of going to school. I mean it happens and all but it is not a normal working environment for a 13 year old, and it should not be accepted as such. And I seriously doubt these kids are watch smiths. More likely they are used to fulfill unskilled labor needs operating unsafe equipment. I still am not getting the Japan analogy. Maybe I am being dense, but I am not aware of Child slave labor in Japanese factories at least not post WWII

Well it is news to me.. especially the part about someone holding a gun to that kid's head and threatening to kill him/her if they try to leave.

I am sorry, but I am not getting the connection between Gundong and Japan. Please expand upon your thought. Thanks.

Hello Dr. Cranium. As I indicated previously, I have more faith in the abilities of legitimate corporations to audit the factories they do business in, than I do in the black markets to do the same. Intuitively speaking, I feel that if this is happening, it is far more likely to be happening in the factories we buy are reps from than it is in the factories Dell sources equipment from. Still, I will think hard before buying ANYTHING that I know is made in China. Can I be 100% assured? No. But I can do what I can do. The fact that Little Children are being kidnapped and forced into labor in this day and age boggles my mind and horrifies me. I cannot tell you how upset I am to have been a part of a business practice that supported this.

Sweatshops staffed with consenting adults are one thing... I have actually china town factories in NYC and came away thinking that the working conditions were actually OK. But slavery implies a lack of choice, and child slavery is odious We are talking about 10 year old children being kidnapped or sold into indentured servitude. There has to be a special kind of hell for people who do that. I am sorry but this is a much different circumstance than long hours, little pay, or poor working conditions. I do not want to be part of a practice that supports child slave labor. I am sorry if this offends anyone, but I really think the members here should consider a boycott until this is somehow vetted.

This is not about sweatshops. Inded, the article makes reference to more than Child Labor, it also makes reference to Child SLAVE labor. Children are kidnapped from their homes and forced to work in factories, or sold as indentured servants by their parents. And it specifically references provinces like Guangdong where we KNOW watches are made. As for brand-named merchandise, sure it is a possibility but I have a lot more faith in the ability of legitimate corporations to audit the factories they do business with than I do in the black market. Still, I am going to think long and hard about buying any clothing, toy or electronic item produced in China until this is cleared up. I will not support this type of business practice.

Incredible write-up. I am not sure how I missed it the first time, but thanks for the link.