What price a 1:1 case set?

[offshore]

One discussion I did have whilst in GZ concerned building a real 1:1 case set.

Now even though it has never been achieved, doesn't mean to say it can't be!

I believe it has simply never happened because none of our suppliers are passionate enough and have enough knowledge (read nouse) to follow a project through.

Cases and case backs can be run on CNC machines in GZ in minimum quantities of 250 possibly even 100.

All that is needed is a CAD/CAM scan of an existing gen, and bingo , we could even specify a grade of s/s if we wanted to get super 1:1.

So a case is doable.

Next comes the crown and tube. There are many existing already floating around GZ, and if exactly the correct one cannot be sourced, again we could go the CAD/CAM route.

If the chosen model has a bezel/insert, all the above apply again.

Finally we get to the crystal. This may prove a bit of a stumbling block, as if the chosen model has an engraved logo, this is apparently not actually achievable at 1:1 in some brands.

Most of the engraving setups currently available either leave a too feint, or too heavy inscription.

O rings, and seals should prove no issue, which really only leaves a stem, and this is very dependent on what movement is fitted obviously. If someone wanted to fit an existing movement then a different stem may be required. Pretty elementary really , and no biggy.

We could move further on in to bracelets and many other areas, however my initial thrust, is just towards a case set.

You all will note that I have deliberately not specified a brand or model.

There may be questions of copyright to consider , and this is not a subject I have yet raised in admin.

So let's just keep the initial discussion in very general terms , shall we?

How could this be made to work?

Those who have been following my travels will have noted mention of a colleague I met in GZ, from an earlier contact through this place.

He is a passionate horologist, (you may well hear of other of his projects in the weeks and months to come) and he is a European born engineer, running his own company in GZ.

He has been researching all of the above areas for another project, and over lunch today, we kicked this one around. I believe he could be persuaded to be the foot soldier, and runner, to bring something like this to fruition. And he has the engineering skill/ability and contacts to swing it!

What he doesn't have, is the technical expertise of the finer points of a specific model, and the input from a team of advisers as to what is really needed to make the whole deal fly!

Guess what...I reckon that last piece of the jigsaw, may well exist, somewhere in these hallowed walls!

So, open for discussion! No names, no pack drill. Let's just explore this one in VERY general terms shall we?

Offshore

[gran]

Interesting post from member number 13

Obviously it can be done its just a question of dedication and money

....but maybe we ultimately have to ask this question to the Chinese as large numbers are needed to keep price down...

Edited September 8, 2009 by Gran

[Toadtorrent]

Exciting. I certainly don't have the expertise...but I know somebody here will.

I think with the 1:1 case something that should be considered would be adaptable movement rings to hold either gen movements, 2813's, 2836/2824's to give flexibility in what goes in for the motor.

Not being all that knowledgeable, would people think the modern ceramic cases are close enough that the subtle nuances in a 1:1 would not be worth the effort given the financial feasibility of the project (i.e. number of sales)? Would vintage cases be better?

[offshore]

Not very large Gran, some pretty good pricing is achieved at 250 quantity, and maybe a 10%-20% premium may get a 100 quantity.

O/S

[Agrippa]

Depending on the estimated final price and on the model chosen for replication, I would certainly be interested in participating in such a project. On the technical side I'd have nothing to offer, due to a case of severe noobitis, but expertise is not exactly in short supply on this board.

[docblackrock]

If you want them selling like hot cakes then it's simple..... just take on the very accurate but obscenely priced Vietnamese replicas of vintage cases of a certain Swiss manufacturer that no longer give a rat's ass about their heritage anyway and won't even service genuine examples. I believe they're infinitely less concerned about these 'old' models than they are about ruthlessly clamping down on models like their recent extra-chunky diver watch for instance.

Can't keep this any more general so I'll say the 1675 would be a good starting point. These currently range anywhere from $500 if you're lucky to over $1100 depending on quality, dealer, hormonal time of the month etc.

Just a case/bezel set would be enough, as there are plenty of aftermarket crystals, redials etc. around for prospective buyers to go their own way. Think how popular the MBW 1665s have been over the years, and you have an idea of the money (and frankens) to be made. Would definitely be a USP at a reasonably sane price (say c.$300).

Safe trip home Alan

[trailboss]

Well, I think we all know what we would like to see the "Best" of first. At least then the eternal question would be answered once and for all.

Then maybe a vintage of the same?

A few decent braclets would no go astray either.

Col.

[automatico]

The expertise and machine tools exist of course but the determination does not.

I bet more than a few genuine examples have been sacrificed for patterns and in the end, the same old problems show up in the finished product...a little off here, a little off there.

On purpose.

Take the famous 'noob' 16610 for example...

Why was it off to begin with? Why not produce the case, bezel, and crystal 1:1 first time out?

Why would they use a specially designed stepped sapphire crystal similar to oem but made to a different scale while pink sapphire oem spec replacements are already in production and retail for $35?

It's not the bezel either because 1:1 replacement bezels are available.

It's not the insert etc.

There is no common sense answer.

I believe in order to get a 1:1 product that you will have to be present at every step of the machining process and be wise to the ways they do business.

If the minimum is 250 pieces on a new design, there is no reason why someone could not have 250 1:1 16610 cases made.

But they never get made.

Versions 1,2,3,4,5 do get made, but never the elusive 1:1.

Offshore said it best...

"...a town of deceptions, selling mass products of deception"

[vlaletom]

That would be very intersting.

I am shure that most type of case that are suceptible to interess menber here, can be folowed by a little group of expert.

I see no interess in doing a very exotic type of watch, that nobody has ever posseded.

And the project has to focus on somthing we can put an affordable motor in. And if possible the exact same base caliber.

I dont sea the point for a 1:1 case if the engine spec (position of stem, subdial spacing etc...) is going to be a problem.

So it live us with movement that can be found genuine, or same base caliber under some amount of money.

So the pricing of the movement is an other issue.

Will people ask form somthing based on cheap ETA (28xx).

Or can we go up to thing to be found in second hand low priced genuine.

Personaly i wouldn't mind go for the second option and go with xxx base caliber, that can be sourced for let's say around 1k$.

So a part for ther cost of the case set, we have to chose right away the overall taget cost of the whole "homage" watch.

[maxman]

Thanks Offshore for the promising news. Im stll a noob and compared to many members here will always be a noob. (novice) That being what It Is I still think about Improvments and what It would take to capture the ever elusive 1.1. I would also like to see this same energy In the movements. One of my all time favorites Is the 7750 and 7751. These are very expensive and very hard to atain. I hear and have also read that valjoux movements have a waiting list that Is quite long.The likes of the big boys from swiss land have to wait over a year or longer and they are only allowed so many movements. I look at my Chinise 7750 In complete awe at times. I think to myself " what If they were to just go a little bit further". Better cq and finishing and perlage work, sanatary conditions, ect. I beleive that this Is the very best time to be a rep enthusiast. When you think about It the possabities are endless. Maybe Im wrong but thats the way I feel. I really think that were on the cusp of comming full circle, from something cheep and made poorly to something spectarular. Thanks for the post Offshore. Not only did It make me think about the 1.1 senario but also the hobby and where It's going as a whole.

[ubiquitous]

A-

Are you looking to achieve just a case set only as a final product? Or is a full, complete and working watch the final goal?

If you're looking to achieve a case set only, then I agree with DBR; there are several instances where picking up a dial, movement, hands, crystal, insert etc. are all pretty easy as applicable to certain models. This would be ideal for the hobbyist for certain. However, if you're looking to achieve a complete watch, I think the finer details are usually where the rep manufacturers really fall short. We have cases like the WM9's (for example) that are very true to their gen counterparts, however the small details like pearls, dial print/font, finish, materials, etc. are usually the weak link on such pieces. This is why I usually buy a complete rep, but only use the case with my projects and scrap everything else; I replace those junk bits with gen parts where possible and within reason.

Reading between the lines a bit... The good thing with RLX is that a number of ETAs can fit cases intended for gen. So, if the goal was to replicate pieces from this brand and you limited to the date/time models, this should be quite doable if you did want to have complete working pieces as the end product...

[P4GTR]

Just when everyone's whispering threads of how things have dulled, OS takes a wild trip and shakes things up around here a bit.

Hypothetically.. Would it be possible to fit either ETA with a movement spacer or gen movement when this was done?

[freddy333]

If you want them selling like hot cakes then it's simple..... just take on the very accurate but obscenely priced Vietnamese replicas of vintage cases of a certain Swiss manufacturer that no longer give a rat's ass about their heritage anyway and won't even service genuine examples. I believe they're infinitely less concerned about these 'old' models than they are about ruthlessly clamping down on models like their recent extra-chunky diver watch for instance.

Just a case/bezel set would be enough, as there are plenty of aftermarket crystals, redials etc. around for prospective buyers to go their own way. Think how popular the MBW 1665s have been over the years, and you have an idea of the money (and frankens) to be made. Would definitely be a USP at a reasonably sane price (say c.$300).

Ditto, though $300 seems a bit high, even for a small-production run considering that entire rep watches of similar quality are routinely sold for 1/4 of that. The only difference between the cheapest Silix case & a properly dimensioned case are the dimensions. The material is the same & so is the process that creates the case. I would expect a bit of extra cost if the production run is below the minimum (250), but we all know that a truly 1:1 case of a popular vintage Rolex model would more than likely require repeated runs to be able to satisfy the insatiable demand that such a product would incur.

[docblackrock]

Ditto, though $300 seems a bit high, even for a small-production run considering that entire rep watches of similar quality are routinely sold for 1/4 of that. The only difference between the cheapest Silix case & a properly dimensioned case are the dimensions. The material is the same & so is the process that creates the case. I would expect a bit of extra cost if the production run is below the minimum (250), but we all know that a truly 1:1 case of a popular vintage Rolex model would more than likely require repeated runs to be able to satisfy the insatiable demand that such a product would incur.

I agree about cost Freddy, but in view of the small run and the setup costs, I don't think 300 is exhorbitant. Expensive perhaps so you're right, 200 would be more like the magic figure. Yeah I know you can get a 1655 case set somewhere in HCMC for less than 100 clams, and believe me that thought grates (which is why on principle the likes of NDT, Phong etc and their $1000-plus sets can shove it up their [censored] ). But being honest, if cases to these specs became available in a small run, say at around the price of a standard A7750 rep, with a little kickback to one of our own in Alan, then I'd jump at the opportunity in a heartbeat. And so, I suspect, would many others.

[chubbchubb]

Ditto, though $300 seems a bit high, even for a small-production run considering that entire rep watches of similar quality are routinely sold for 1/4 of that. The only difference between the cheapest Silix case & a properly dimensioned case are the dimensions. The material is the same & so is the process that creates the case. I would expect a bit of extra cost if the production run is below the minimum (250), but we all know that a truly 1:1 case of a popular vintage Rolex model would more than likely require repeated runs to be able to satisfy the insatiable demand that such a product would incur.

+1

[freddy333]

But being honest, if cases to these specs became available in a small run, say at around the price of a standard A7750 rep, then I'd jump on it in a heartbeat. And so, I suspect, would many others.

No argument there. I just think that if RWG members are involved in the production, the retail price (at least to RWG members, some of whom may be tapped to add to the knowledgebase used during development) ought to be more realistic.

And as far as which cases would be good candidates for such an enterprise, I would simply use NDtrading's site as a production guide. I only wonder how long it would take NDtrading (& other sellers of Vietnam-sourced rep components) to drop its pricing (by 80%) once a realistically priced competitor appeared. My hunch is less than 24 hours, which makes clear how utterly baseless their pricing structure is.

[chubbchubb]

we are talking about a minimum volume of roughly 1% of the membership of this forum alone... that does not sound too difficult. I bet a true 1:1 1665 or 1680 on a reasonable price would sell like hotcake. In a sense it's a business model already, just on a different price scale.

[freddy333]

we are talking about a minimum volume of roughly 1% of the membership of this forum alone... that does not sound too difficult. I bet a true 1:1 1665 or 1680 on a reasonable price would sell like hotcake. In a sense it's a business model already, just on a different price scale.

Exactly. Although I already own a few 1665 cases, I would buy an additional 1-2 1:1 cases in a heartbeat if/when they became available (at a realistic price). And I am sure that just about everyone else like me would as well. Imagine how many truly 1:1 1665 or Daytona cases you could sell on ebay!!!!!!!! In fact, just word-of-mouth sales, alone, would probably flood the marketplace, pushing just about everyone else (not selling true 1:1 cases) to the sidelines. Due to the potential numbers involved, profits from a case retailing at US$200 would be significant & certainly more than sufficient to offset both the development & small production run costs (if even relevant).

The only real stumbling block I can see is Rolex (& any other gen makers whose repped 1:1 cases begin flooding the marketplace). The production of a true 1:1 rep Rolex case would test my belief that the rep factory bosses have arrangements with the gens that allow them to conduct their business in a mostly hands-off fashion as long as they are not producing exact 1:1 copies. In addition, I suspect, also, that if people here (at RWG) were involved in the production of such 1:1 cases (considering the knowledgebase available), it would likely spark an arms race with others (like NDtrading, etc, who produce 1:1.1 cases), wherein they would immediately jump on the 1:1 bandwagon, much to the chagrin (or joy, if you are a gen lawyer) of the gens' lawyers.

Whatever the case (no pun intended), I bet the rep world would undergo a significant change if a true 1:1 Rolex case suddenly hit the marketplace. Oh, & add a 1:1 dial to the mix (imagine a 1:1 Paul Newman ) & all bets are off. To paraphrase the Vapors - I'm turning Japanese just thinking about it.

[gran]

Moeal of this thread: If the plan is good dreams can come true. Interessting read.

HappiestTimekeeping

Gran

[vlaletom]

I only wonder how long it would take NDtrading (& other sellers of Vietnam-sourced rep components) to drop its pricing (by 80%) once a realistically priced competitor appeared.

It seams DW is also a new competitor, still with limited offer, but he has extended his line ... Probablly much more expensive than a rwg project, but way less then NDT/phong roberry

[docblackrock]

Moeal of this thread: If the plan is good dreams can come true. Interessting read.

HappiestTimekeeping

Gran

Aye, remind me how are those custom RWG watches are coming along, Gran? We getting nearer a shipping date yet?

[Member X]

Exactly. Although I already own a few 1665 cases, I would buy an additional 1-2 1:1 cases in a heartbeat if/when they became available (at a realistic price). And I am sure that just about everyone else like me would as well. Imagine how many truly 1:1 1665 or Daytona cases you could sell on ebay!!!!!!!! In fact, just word-of-mouth sales, alone, would probably flood the marketplace, pushing just about everyone else (not selling true 1:1 cases) to the sidelines. Due to the potential numbers involved, profits from a case retailing at US$200 would be significant & certainly more than sufficient to offset both the development & small production run costs (if even relevant).

The only real stumbling block I can see is Rolex (& any other gen makers whose repped 1:1 cases begin flooding the marketplace). The production of a true 1:1 rep Rolex case would test my belief that the rep factory bosses have arrangements with the gens that allow them to conduct their business in a mostly hands-off fashion as long as they are not producing exact 1:1 copies. In addition, I suspect, also, that if people here (at RWG) were involved in the production of such 1:1 cases (considering the knowledgebase available), it would likely spark an arms race with others (like NDtrading, etc, who produce 1:1.1 cases), wherein they would immediately jump on the 1:1 bandwagon, much to the chagrin (or joy, if you are a gen lawyer) of the gens' lawyers.

Whatever the case (no pun intended), I bet the rep world would undergo a significant change if a true 1:1 Rolex case suddenly hit the marketplace. Oh, & add a 1:1 dial to the mix (imagine a 1:1 Paul Newman ) & all bets are off. To paraphrase the Vapors - I'm turning Japanese just thinking about it.

All good points, Freddy!

I have no experience of it but I'd also be interested to see if there was any level of involvement from 'the men with 4 fingers', shall we say... We are always told that reps feed organised crime but OS hasn't mentioned it and there seems to be so many traders that it would be impossible for even them to police. I wouldn't like to be the factory owner producing 1:1 cases that had a visit from a well spoken but no-nonsense man with a group of heavies with him!

It would significantly alter the world of reps (and maybe gens?) if a true 1:1 case was built. How would anyone know that the watch they were buying really was gen, even if fitted with gen parts? It could just be a great franken! Would prices for certified gens go up or down? I could see them going up if they are guaranteed gen as people would pay a premium to ensure it, but it would only take a few sales of frankens as gens to highlight the problem and then all the prices could fall...

Interesting situation, overall. Not sure it will ever happen but we'll see!

[freddy333]

It seams DW is also a new competitor, still with limited offer, but he has extended his line ... Probablly much more expensive than a rwg project, but way less then NDT/phong roberry

I contributed some data to DW's new case projects, so they ought (assuming the factory used the data correctly) to be fairly accurate & up to his usual standards of quality (such as they are). But I never received any production samples, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

[Luthier]

OK, let's start calculations.

1. Setting up the goal - let's say "The Best One" and Tona.

2. Ordering CAD drawings for every part, it's not a big problem.

3. Ask every member who willing to buy finishing product to pay 33% downpayment of...let's say $200 (final price).

4. Place orders on the factories, who make cases, dials, hands, crystals, etc. I know a few very good factories in HK who make excellent parts.

5. Find the source for Asian clone ETA and Shanghai A7750, not a problem, they'll provide top notch QC for such an order.

6. Find 2 skilled watchsmiths there, who will do assembling. 200-300 watches not a big quantity, will be done in a week.

7. Find the safest way to deliver finished product (all together) to USA.

It's just a thoughts, could be corrected, if needed. If we'll find enough members who will agree to participate - why not start it right away?

[gran]

Aye, remind me how are those custom RWG watches are coming along, Gran? We getting nearer a shipping date yet?

Dident you get yours? .....