Witnessed an idiot bring a rep to an AD

[Ronin]

You guys aren't those people you see in X retail store talking the salesperson to death week after week wasting their time as well as real paying customers time and not buying any product are you?

Thanks KB for bringing us back OT.

@OrenG, actually I was at the AD because they called me about a watch I was waiting for them to get back in.

[lanikai]

me thinks the main point of this topic is being missed especially if someone were to just register here and starts with this thread

Now all this talk of what could happen legally this way or that, is pretty much in vain.. and to me is just rhetoric ..

because the reality is that out hobby is believe it or not illegal (what a concept huh ?) ... regardless of prospective "rights", or State Law (if in fact each State is autonomous) because the last I checked in the USA Federal laws run parallel across the 50 States ...

and if anyone is going to be lame enough to walk into an AD wearing a rep , no matter how good it "represents" the real deal, he or she should be embarrassed by any action taken against them...

Yes we can talk for day's regarding "Brand infringement" and the pro's and con's of the commissioned associates behind the counter.. but the bottom line is no one should bring unwarranted attention to themselves by wearing a replication or "fake" into an AD !!! Thus showing off their lack of intelligence..

there is a lot of "talk" that we wear our reps for "ourselves" meaning for our own enjoyment and not anyone's idealistic reasoning for materialistic thought's. If that is the case then leave your rep in the car..

If and when I enter an AD,.. weather it be to view a genuine for comparison (how many times do 'we' do this), or if I am really interested in shopping for a gen. ... then I will wear a genuine... or before I had brand name genuines I would not wear anything.

And on the topic of sales people.... they are "working" and trying to make a living just like you and I ... some have families that depend on their "working" .. and retail being what it is today.. what makes us think that these people don't depend on "keeping" their jobs and they may have arseholes as bosses.. who are very aware of the rep biz... AD's here don't give out brochures anymore .. and will tell you point blank.. 'because of counterfeiters'..

I spend my money where it is appreciated.. I stay away from the stores where the "attitude" supersedes the service... because most of the high end buyer's are form overseas here.. I feel more comfortable when the sales people are "local" and treat me like they would anyone else.

My point is, don't go looking for a fight when one can be avoided.. common sense should be the standard and not the exception !!

AC

Lani

[Bike Mike]

me thinks the main point of this topic is being missed especially if someone were to just register here and starts with this thread

Now all this talk of what could happen legally this way or that, is pretty much in vain.. and to me is just rhetoric ..

because the reality is that out hobby is believe it or not illegal (what a concept huh ?) ... regardless of prospective "rights", or State Law (if in fact each State is autonomous) because the last I checked in the USA Federal laws run parallel across the 50 States ...

and if anyone is going to be lame enough to walk into an AD wearing a rep , no matter how good it "represents" the real deal, he or she should be embarrassed by any action taken against them...

Yes we can talk for day's regarding "Brand infringement" and the pro's and con's of the commissioned associates behind the counter.. but the bottom line is no one should bring unwarranted attention to themselves by wearing a replication or "fake" into an AD !!! Thus showing off their lack of intelligence..

there is a lot of "talk" that we wear our reps for "ourselves" meaning for our own enjoyment and not anyone's idealistic reasoning for materialistic thought's. If that is the case then leave your rep in the car..

If and when I enter an AD,.. weather it be to view a genuine for comparison (how many times do 'we' do this), or if I am really interested in shopping for a gen. ... then I will wear a genuine... or before I had brand name genuines I would not wear anything.

And on the topic of sales people.... they are "working" and trying to make a living just like you and I ... some have families that depend on their "working" .. and retail being what it is today.. what makes us think that these people don't depend on "keeping" their jobs and they may have arseholes as bosses.. who are very aware of the rep biz... AD's here don't give out brochures anymore .. and will tell you point blank.. 'because of counterfeiters'..

I spend my money where it is appreciated.. I stay away from the stores where the "attitude" supersedes the service... because most of the high end buyer's are form overseas here.. I feel more comfortable when the sales people are "local" and treat me like they would anyone else.

My point is, don't go looking for a fight when one can be avoided.. common sense should be the standard and not the exception !!

AC

Lani

Very well said Lani!

This is why people carry concealed weapons. Most of the time you won't even have to use it, but you may have to show them that you mean business.

This is called "Brandishing a weapon." You will go to jail for this.

[TeeJay]

I live in the States. It is not illegal to own Reps, just illegal to sell them as it is copyright infringement, whether as a dealer or individual. A good friend of mine is partners in a firm, that among other things, represents a few local jewelry stores. When I got into this hobby I asked him,

[Bike Mike]

Yes. But there is a vast difference between trying to sell a rep as gen (say at a pawn shop) and simply wearing one on one's wrist whilst visiting an AD. If that person simply puts the watch on the counter while trying on another, then they are not attempting to sell the watch, so not attempting to defraud anyone, so the ADs do not have powers of confiscation and seizure, over what is (although illegal in itself) a legally owned piece of property. What they are doing, quite simply, amounts to theft. It does not matter if they have the staff to verify the authenticity, as unless there is some attempt to perform 'the old switcheroo', or actually sell the rep, there is no crime being committed by the person which warrants a confiscation...

Not disagreeing with you. Just telling you what I have seen. It happens and will continue to happen. As it has been written on this thread, we should not be walking into AD's with our Reps. on. I feel most members here are smart enough to avoid these situations. At the same time I think there are many people out there that own reps and do not know any better. They think they are fooling everyone. These are the people that walking into AD's thinking they are going to fool them, (regardless if they are attempting to defraud or by a Gen piece) and get their pieces confiscated. These are the ones that are unknowledgeable, and more then likely clueless if the AD is within their legal rights or not. For the most part, they feel "Oh sh!t I just got busted", feel so uneasy about getting called out that they panic and walk away. If you put up a fight in the store I am sure the AD would return your property without scene and kindly request you do not return with it. Again, I am yet to see this happen as everyone I have seen, does a about face and walks out the door.

Ronin was just giving everyone a heads up and I spoke of my personal experience. Regardless of it being wrong or right in someone's eyes, there is no point in debating it as it happens and we can only do our part to make sure our hard earned property is protect.

[Guest OrenG]

Very well said Lani!

This is called "Brandishing a weapon." You will go to jail for this.

Hey, don't steal my property and I won't have to

[TeeJay]

Not disagreeing with you. Just telling you what I have seen. It happens and will continue to happen. As it has been written on this thread, we should not be walking into AD's with our Reps. on. I feel most members here are smart enough to avoid these situations. At the same time I think there are many people out there that own reps and do not know any better. They think they are fooling everyone. These are the people that walking into AD's thinking they are going to fool them, (regardless if they are attempting to defraud or by a Gen piece) and get their pieces confiscated. These are the ones that are unknowledgeable, and more then likely clueless if the AD is within their legal rights or not. For the most part, they feel "Oh sh!t I just got busted", feel so uneasy about getting called out that they panic and walk away. If you put up a fight in the store I am sure the AD would return your property without scene and kindly request you do not return with it. Again, I am yet to see this happen as everyone I have seen, does a about face and walks out the door.

Ronin was just giving everyone a heads up and I spoke of my personal experience. Regardless of it being wrong or right in someone's eyes, there is no point in debating it as it happens and we can only do our part to make sure our hard earned property is protect.

I agree, there's a lot of general ignorance out there. The times I have had a rep on when going into an AD (which is now any time, as I don't wear anything but my reps now) as a last minute decision to look at another watch, I have always put it in my pocket rather than on the counter. Most times when I went into ADs to buy a watch, I simply wouldn't wear my old watch at all during the shopping trip, so I could put the new watch on straight away. As Lani mentioned above, it's just courtessy. On one occasion, I went into an AD to order a strap buckle, and, carrying a bag of groceries, and forgot to take my watch off. (I think it was a Planet Ocean, I forget) They might have seen it, but they never made any comment at all about it, nor treated me any different to any other customer... One thing's for sure, I'd love to be a fly on the wall the day a rep owner objects to an AD trying to confiscate their watch

[maxman]

I agree, there's a lot of general ignorance out there. The times I have had a rep on when going into an AD (which is now any time, as I don't wear anything but my reps now) as a last minute decision to look at another watch, I have always put it in my pocket rather than on the counter. Most times when I went into ADs to buy a watch, I simply wouldn't wear my old watch at all during the shopping trip, so I could put the new watch on straight away. As Lani mentioned above, it's just courtessy. On one occasion, I went into an AD to order a strap buckle, and, carrying a bag of groceries, and forgot to take my watch off. (I think it was a Planet Ocean, I forget) They might have seen it, but they never made any comment at all about it, nor treated me any different to any other customer... One thing's for sure, I'd love to be a fly on the wall the day a rep owner objects to an AD trying to confiscate their watch

It would go probably something like this "give me my bloody f%$#in watch back ah" or something to that effect. I have never worn my rep Into a Ad store. I dont really like to draw attention to my reps good or bad, I like to stay under the proverbial radar, If It all possable Mike

[TeeJay]

It would go probably something like this "give me my bloody f%$#in watch back ah" or something to that effect. I have never worn my rep Into a Ad store. I dont really like to draw attention to my reps good or bad, I like to stay under the proverbial radar, If all possable Mike

Yeah, probably nothing too extreme, but, as mentioned above, there's always that one customer who might flip out and make things interesting As you say though, best to try and stay below the radar

[maxman]

Yeah, probably nothing too extreme, but, as mentioned above, there's always that one customer who might flip out and make things interesting As you say though, best to try and stay below the radar

Indeed Teejay, there are some crazy mofo out there. Just pick up the news paper, any news paper(do they still make those) and you will probably fine some crazy sob fliping out and doing something really stupid, road rage etc. It's probably a good thing that you dont drive, safer that way Mike

[TeeJay]

Indeed Teejay, there are some crazy mofo out there. Just pick up the news paper, any news paper(do they still make those) and you will probably fine some crazy sob fliping out and doing something really stupid, road rage etc. It's probably a good thing that you dont drive, safer that way Mike

You're right there, always someone freaking out about something on the roads And not that I'd really approve of someone getting medieval at retail staff (I once saw some builders threatening to do over a McTrainee on his first day as he couldn't take their order that was Effed up...) but some snoot AD thinking they had the right to seize a rep, then getting their ass handed to them... That might well be worth the price of admission

[freddy333]

Unless you are attempting to defraud them out of goods or money with it, an AD cannot confiscate/take/steal your rep/franken just because you wear it into their store. In the rare case that an employee identifies it as non-gen, they may ask you to leave or give you a (well deserved) dirty look, but that is all they can do.

[TeeJay]

Unless you are attempting to defraud them out of goods or money with it, an AD cannot confiscate/take/steal your rep/franken just because you wear it into their store. In the rare case that an employee identifies it as non-gen, they may ask you to leave or give you a (well deserved) dirty look, but that is all they can do.

Absolutely. That's what galls me to hear about ADs confiscating watches. I wonder how many actually get destroyed, or if the AD decides which ones they like the look of...

[maxman]

You're right there, always someone freaking out about something on the roads And not that I'd really approve of someone getting medieval at retail staff (I once saw some builders threatening to do over a McTrainee on his first day as he couldn't take their order that was Effed up...) but some snoot AD thinking they had the right to seize a rep, then getting their ass handed to them... That might well be worth the price of admission

Sounds like those builders were about to super size his azz I agree that wearing a rep into a AD Is bad form and should be avoided at all cost. That being said, no one has the right to take what Is legally yours. They can ask you to leave even escort you to the door and ask you not to return. But to take something that does not belong to them Is stealing In my book. Mike

[redwatch]

Back to the topic at hand, I agree with Lani. There is no need to wear a rep into an AD.

When I went to Vegas, I wore my WM9 sub and my Rocket Dial Cartier. The first day, when I was wearing the submariner, I took it off, put it in my back pocket and walked into the Rolex AD at the Wynn. The sales man there was phenomenal! He was very courteous and generous with his time. He would show me anything I asked to see and try on. He even pulled out the new stock that had just arrived so he could show me the newest white gold daytona with the grey dial. It was beautiful. I also took a good long look at the SS submariner. Checking the usual items so that when I left the store later on I could compare my sub and see what the flaws were.

The next day, I went to the Cartier dealer and had a look at the Santos 100 they had on display. This time, I wasn't even talked to by a sales rep. They just ignored me. Same was true later that day when I went to Tourneau's at Caesar's Palace. They just completely ignored me.

I guess I have two points with my ramblings:

1) I would never ever wear a rep into an AD. To me that is just way too cocky, as if you are baiting the sales rep to see if they are smart enough to find you out.

2) Not all sales reps are pushy and/or needy for that next big sale. The rolex salesman probably sells more than enough watches a day that he can take his time with each and every customer. My theory is, you never know who you are dealing with. Ever. Every person that walks into that store is a potential customer and, especially in Vegas, could come back later with a wad of cash from winning big at the craps table and drop a pile of cash on a watch (or whatever). Everyone should be treated as a potential buyer.

Just my 0.02 (or $2.00)

[TeeJay]

Sounds like those builders were about to super size his azz

Yeah, it was a crazy situation to be witnessing, as the kid was standing to one side, not even at a register, and when they asked why he couldn't take their order, he explained that it was his first day, and he hadn't been trained yet, but was waiting for someone... They then asked what time he finished. I think not quite understanding, he said what time Macshack closed, to which they replied "We'll be back then to do you over!" The kid looked like he was about to shit himself, and for some strange reason, I never saw him working there after that... I've seen my fair share of awkward customers over the years, but never anything so totally unreasonable. Even if they were joking, it wasn't cool to do something like that to a trainee...

I agree that wearing a rep into a AD Is bad form and should be avoided at all cost. That being said, no one has the right to take what Is legally yours. They can ask you to leave even escort you to the door and ask you not to return. But to take something that does not belong to them Is stealing In my book. Mike

That's absolutely my sentiments as well. The time I forgot to take my watch off, I was actually holding the groceries with that hand, and nothing was said, but it's not the sort of thing I'd do intentionally.

[TeeJay]

Back to the topic at hand, I agree with Lani. There is no need to wear a rep into an AD.

When I went to Vegas, I wore my WM9 sub and my Rocket Dial Cartier. The first day, when I was wearing the submariner, I took it off, put it in my back pocket and walked into the Rolex AD at the Wynn. The sales man there was phenomenal! He was very courteous and generous with his time. He would show me anything I asked to see and try on. He even pulled out the new stock that had just arrived so he could show me the newest white gold daytona with the grey dial. It was beautiful. I also took a good long look at the SS submariner. Checking the usual items so that when I left the store later on I could compare my sub and see what the flaws were.

The next day, I went to the Cartier dealer and had a look at the Santos 100 they had on display. This time, I wasn't even talked to by a sales rep. They just ignored me. Same was true later that day when I went to Tourneau's at Caesar's Palace. They just completely ignored me.

I guess I have two points with my ramblings:

1) I would never ever wear a rep into an AD. To me that is just way too cocky, as if you are baiting the sales rep to see if they are smart enough to find you out.

2) Not all sales reps are pushy and/or needy for that next big sale. The rolex salesman probably sells more than enough watches a day that he can take his time with each and every customer. My theory is, you never know who you are dealing with. Ever. Every person that walks into that store is a potential customer and, especially in Vegas, could come back later with a wad of cash from winning big at the craps table and drop a pile of cash on a watch (or whatever). Everyone should be treated as a potential buyer.

Just my 0.02 (or $2.00)

+1

[preacher62]

Stories about AD managers grabbing your watch, and being backed by invincible lawyers are designed to make them seem tough .. as if they have God-like authority over watches. When in reality, they are simply people who have made a series of very bad life-choices and are stuck working in Retail.

Did you think I was talking about you? I don't understand your not understanding

Amen...I was just reading this post in amazement. I don't know where you all live but in Tennessee a "jeweler" has no legal authority to "confiscate" anything of mine, and Rolex cannot give him that authority. He's just a store owner or employee. He/She will have to make a bigger case than that to take something from me. On the other hand...if a stooge goes into a Carlyle and Co. and tries to trade a rep Pam for a new gen DJ, the idiot ought to be taken off the street, however, it will take the local constabulary to do it...not the jeweler. And the jeweler will have to make a case in court. Is it worth it to anyone. My rep watches have never cost Rolex a cent.

[lanikai]

Yes. But there is a vast difference between trying to sell a rep as gen (say at a pawn shop) and simply wearing one on one's wrist whilst visiting an AD. If that person simply puts the watch on the counter while trying on another, then they are not attempting to sell the watch, so not attempting to defraud anyone, so the ADs do not have powers of confiscation and seizure, over what is (although illegal in itself) a legally owned piece of property. What they are doing, quite simply, amounts to theft. It does not matter if they have the staff to verify the authenticity, as unless there is some attempt to perform 'the old switcheroo', or actually sell the rep, there is no crime being committed by the person which warrants a confiscation...

For the sake of debate TJ.... I believe the item in question is by all accounts 'counterfeited' therefore making it not only illegal but misrepresenting the very brands that the AD's are "authorized" to "protect" ...

I am sure the Corporate entities that govern these policies have directed the representatives of their brands to dispense with any items that "misrepresent" their own..

I think the fact that the watch is illegally manufactured, and is considered contraband in most Country's would take precedent over the fact that it is personal property of any person walking into an AD.

I would equate it to walking into a Bank with a counterfeit bill and having it confiscated ..

In other words the "Crime has already been perpetrated when the counterfeit was made,.. and was compounded when it was "sold".. weather knowingly or unknowingly it was sold to "represent" the genuine article.

imo.. there is just black and white in this scenario.. no gray area

AC

L

[TeeJay]

For the sake of debate TJ.... I believe the item in question is by all accounts 'counterfeited' therefore making it not only illegal but misrepresenting the very brands that the AD's are "authorized" to "protect" ...

I am sure the Corporate entities that govern these policies have directed the representatives of their brands to dispense with any items that "misrepresent" their own..

I think the fact that the watch is illegally manufactured, and is considered contraband in most Country's would take precedent over the fact that it is personal property of any person walking into an AD.

I would equate it to walking into a Bank with a counterfeit bill and having it confiscated ..

In other words the "Crime has already been perpetrated when the counterfeit was made,.. and was compounded when it was "sold".. weather knowingly or unknowingly it was sold to "represent" the genuine article.

imo.. there is just black and white in this scenario.. no gray area

AC

L

As a debate topic, I can completely see that side to it, as after all, it is contraband, and infringes intellectual property, I'd just be interested to find out at what level the corporate rights, would supersede the individual's right to 'continue to own' the item which they were already in possession of...

Of course, if one was walking into a bank with a counterfeit bill in China, it would just get put in the 'for the tourists' tray

[freddy333]

I think the fact that the watch is illegally manufactured, and is considered contraband in most Country's would take precedent over the fact that it is personal property of any person walking into an AD.

I would equate it to walking into a Bank with a counterfeit bill and having it confiscated ..

imo.. there is just black and white in this scenario.. no gray area

With all due respect, Lani, I think you are wrong about that.

In the case of counterfeit money, there are federal laws (at least in the US/UK) requiring banks to confiscate counterfeit money & report it to the Secret Service (I used to be in banking & I doubt the laws governing counterfeit money have changed much since then). In the case of reps, there are no such federal laws. In most states, the possession of rep watches, handbags, shoes, etc, is considered a misdemeanor & rarely prosecuted except in the most egregious cases (like where the possessor appears to be in the business of distributing/selling). (I have heard that rep possession is treated (by law enforcement) as being similar to driving while wearing headphones or a telephone headset - both technically illegal, but rarely prosecuted. Unless, of course, you kill someone with your car or use it to rob a bank or while engaged in some other felonious activity, in which case the headphone rap gets added to the list of criminal complaints that gets brought against you. )

So any AD that confiscates your rep can be prosecuted for theft, which is why stories of same should be taken with a huge grain of salt (& a nice bedtime story).

A relevant aside (the following info comes 1st-hand from a close friend whose family used to own a large chain of ADs) - ADs used to receive 'Bulletins' from Rolex instructing them on how to identify fake Rolexes (this was 25 years ago & I do not know if they still do). However, the guides were purely informational (telling ADs how to deal with customers attempting to trade-in or sell a fake Rolex to the AD) & included no directives instructing the AD to confiscate anything. But, to be clear, attempting to sell or trade a fake as a gen IS a prosecutable crime. So, if someone actually did have a rep confiscated by an AD or other retailer, that was probably the reason.

[lanikai]

For more discussion.. I am not attempting to be "right" .. if the items in question were not "contraband" then "it" would not be listed as such with Customs.. granted they (thankfully) don't take it as seriously as some Countries but the fact remains that it is contraband..

play this out .. your rep. is confiscated for copy right infringement.. you litigate.. and the "burden of proof" is on you.. would you bet against the fact that the powers that be would find in your favour ??

why do customs officials call the reps. 'counterfeit' ?? if in fact it is not.. misdemeanor or felony it still has not been in the books as "legal" .. and if possession is by a large percentage of the law your personal property are you not breaking the law??

for the sake of discussion .. would you (to prove a point) take a rep into an AD ... have it confiscated and pursue your point ?? Unless your willing to do this the topic seems moot.

I used currency as a example, not to put it in the same category as our watches..

my crux and point is .. don't wear your rep into an AD..

conversely it is 'extreme and assinine ..imo.. for a sales associate to take 'your' property ... but "you" took the chance of that happening by taking it on property.. no ???

It would seem like you would 'win' the personal property argument, to only further promote the somewhat questionable right to own and wear a counterfeited article.

And finally (for now...hehe) would you post a pic of one of your frankens on TZ ?? it's not illegal ...so common sense rains..

good discussion btw..

AC

lani

[FxrAndy]

Now what if the person genuinly belived that the watch they had was real, no matter how bad it was, just look at what people pay on the bay, How pissed would you be if some cock in a suit tryed to take it off you!

We in the main know what we are doing, of course we would never go into an AD with a rep, But the person who does not know what he has!

[freddy333]

I have always understood that the primary reason not to wear reps into an AD to is keep the AD & gen makers (not to mention the general public) from knowing how accurate the better reps are. The less they know about quality reps, the better able we are to wear them without worrying about being called out or having our sources called in (to a lawyer's office).

To paraphrase Mao (or was it Confucius) - If you want to play near bees, it is best to play in the dark.

[Bike Mike]

They know how accurate reps have become. Look at Hublot's site, they compare gens to the reps to keep thier customers informed. I have seen this same information passed along to their AD's along with other brands following suit. If someone is worried about being called out for wearing a rep, then maybe they should reconsidering wearing it because obviously they are not wearing it for themselves.