RWG Technical Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 Just a heads up from the bench on a couple more watches to avoid. 1. TAG Grand Carrera seconds at 3 Caliber 17 On the TAG, there are a number of problems and issues: - It can't be serviced, subdial hands are actually "disks", the disks can't be removed which means that the movement can't be serviced, so when it stops working you can simply throw it away, unless of course you don't care about the subdials actuall working in which case the disks would be frozen in place after servicing. - No room for the hands...design problem, no space between the crystal and the dial for the hands. As delivered the hands were practically touching each other, with less than 1/10mm between each of the hands and the dial face. The amount of space between the crystal and the dial is about 1/2 of the required distance to allow the hands to clear each other. The only way to actually have the hands not touch the crystal, is to install them with about the thickness of a piece of paper between the hands, without the required clearance between the hands - you are going to have problems. 2. Porsche Flat 6 chrono - No room for the hands... same issue as on the TAG only worse, on this model it was impossible to secure the movement to the case with clamps without the chrono seconds hand touching the crystal and preventing the movement from running. New clamps had to be fabricated, the screws could only be partially tightened, and the movement had to be secured with small dabs of epoxy holding the clamps and screws. There is no reason to not manufacture the watches with the proper and required hand clearance. My recommendation, consider these the same as the "Seconds at 6 models" - stay away from them, or if you insist on buying one of these models, do so knowing that you will have problems... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 Thanks for the heads up Zig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 Thank you ZM ... AC L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drulee Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 Neat, I never knew you had a list. Are additions to the list generally just posted in this section? I guess I should do a search By the way, I still haven't settled on which watches to get relumed and which should just end up on the chopping block .. . ahem, I mean .. end up in my "watches to practice my watch smithing on" pile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff g Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 Thanks Rob. Every little bit helps. Just another reason that you are known as 'The Man'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paneristi_man Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Thanks for such valuable information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paneristi_man Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 May be just my bad luck but I had had issues too with the asian 7750 with chrono functions with seconds at 9. movement failed just after couple of weeks. no such problems with the manual movements e.g asian 6497 or swiss eta movements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krpster Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Great to have someone looking out for us all. Thanks ZM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted October 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 May be just my bad luck but I had had issues too with the asian 7750 with chrono functions with seconds at 9. movement failed just after couple of weeks. no such problems with the manual movements e.g asian 6497 or swiss eta movements. The seconds at 9 A7750 is a good movement (as is the seconds at 3 and 12 A7750's), the A7750 does come with a number of defects and problems as delivered, least of which is not being serviced. Fix the defects, service and adjust the movement, and your problems are solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drulee Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 The seconds at 9 A7750 is a good movement (as is the seconds at 3 and 12 A7750's), the A7750 does come with a number of defects and problems as delivered, least of which is not being serviced. Fix the defects, service and adjust the movement, and your problems are solved. Well that's nice to know, considering I'm a PAM enthusiast What would be the common defects and problems that a novice could spot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudemeister Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Thanks Zig, I was just about ready to buy one of the Porsche Flat 6 watches. Your findings put that purchase on hold until a better version come out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chubbchubb Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Just a heads up from the bench on a couple more watches to avoid. 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 I have noticed with my flat 6 that when I pull the crown out (which is then wobbly)to adjust the time I can feel the movement moving inside the case as I adjust the hands which was abit concerning, other than that it runs fine and is one of my favorites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted October 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 What would be the common defects and problems that a novice could spot? A novice won't be able to spot the defects, or correct them. It requires a detailed understanding of horology to find the problems, and then the skills to fix them. It has taken me many years to sort out the quirks on the A7750, that hard earned knowledge stays with me. Could there be different production runs? Is my logic twisted? Am I missing something? I believe that this is indeed the situation, different runs, different versions, or maybe different factories producing the same model. This is not a subtle problem I found, in other words the problem is very apparent and a design one. I did have another Flat 6 in for servicing and it was fine. So the problem is like always, how do you spot the difference between a good one, and a bad one...you can't spot the difference, except once you get it in hand and then it may be too late. In my view it's like the seconds at 6 Daytona's and the CHS GMT's, sure some work good, but many don't, how lucky do you feel? So I don't think your missing anything, you got lucky... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxman Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Thank you Zig for taking the time to post this, good stuff Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Fleischer Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Thanx Zig. i have the Tag Grand Carrera and it broke after awhile. Luckily my watch guy here was able to get it running but you're right- the seconds disk doesn't really work. i don't care because its a nice looking rep and keeps good time now. hard to believe there's no room for the hands- that sucker is really thick, like 20mm!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francisco Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Perhaps there are several versions of the Porsche... I had no problems to repair this one: and i had to remove and fit hands..and it was quite easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P4GTR Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 It requires a detailed understanding of horology to find the problems, and then the skills to fix them. So how the hell do you manage to do it then? Just kidding, everyones always brown nosing the master for bonus points. I know Rob loves the attention though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllergyDoc Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 No soup for you, P4GTR! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted October 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 So how the hell do you manage to do it then? Just kidding, everyones always brown nosing the master for bonus points. I know Rob loves the attention though I managed it the hard way, with many many hours of reading, studying and troubleshooting, and learning by trial and error. Actually I don't like the attention that my contrubitons have brought, which is why my contributions have virtually stopped over the past year. With the attention comes bad stuff, so I prefer to sit on the sidelines and just do my thing. Too many trying to knock me down all the time...even from other forums I don't belong to... It's easy to keep bonus points with me, be up front and honest and not a jerk, on, or off the forum, especially on email. Treat me right and I'll do the same and more in return. @ Francisco I think there are different versions, I have had others that were not a problem, but how do you tell which one is the good one...and which is the bad one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 I've found over the last couple of years that ZM is a straight shooter.. character is top shelf ... It is a shame that being the best has it's draw backs.. many jealous members and members that "wanna be" Many, many hours of work and trial and error.. some think that a 10 minute read takes the same time to manufacture..that is funny.. ZM has shown his character to me from before I sent my first watch to him .. R and J have been nothing but honest!!! to say anything else would be blatantly malicious, and that is all rumors and innuendo are... it is a real shame.. that some can hide behind the internet... the only thing left to say to those that think they know better is, "the proof is in the end results".. and I am not patronizing ZM.. he doesn't need it and neither do I.. great work is what it is.. Lani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreww Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 That's a shame about the Porsche, it was definitely on my wish list. Never really liked the Tag, so no big loss there. Thanks Zig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted October 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Thanks Lanikai, that really means a lot to me. Funny how we started out with me being up front and telling you that I couldn't meet your expectations for the work you were requesting, and that I was going to send everything back...then the FF debaucherie where the forum members of RWG were ready to hang you, until I posted the "rest of the story" and FF owned up to his mistakes and shoddy workmanship (not the first time that happened)... It's been a bit of a trying road at times, but in the end off line, on emails, you know where the truth lies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Thanks Lanikai, that really means a lot to me. Funny how we started out with me being up front and telling you that I couldn't meet your expectations for the work you were requesting, and that I was going to send everything back...then the FF debaucherie where the forum members of RWG were ready to hang you, until I posted the "rest of the story" and FF owned up to his mistakes and shoddy workmanship (not the first time that happened)... It's been a bit of a trying road at times, but in the end off line, on emails, you know where the truth lies. Thank you for bringing that up ZM.. I would not post this without your lead... for those of you that are under a couple of years old here.. I had an experience that I was ready to stand alone on.... long story short.. there were a lot of lies and members believed them.. and the thread was to drag me though broken glass ...I had work done on a 029 by another modder.. and it was a disaster.. the lume was really messed up.. the movement was trashed.. screw heads stripped etc. .. ZM was going to send it back .. I sent it as my first appointment as a "rescue" job.. after exposing the shoddy work and the "truth" ZM.. then spend a number of hours resurrecting my 029 and it still runs spot on today.. in fact, mac pics are posted in the Pam section..I had forgotten that one of the mods ZM did which was not a rescue.. was swap the rep mag for a Kruzer project mag.. Some say to this day on other fora that ZM wants all the work.. .. I laugh at that .. as ZM endorsed Vac.. that is not a sign of a greedy Man.. Vac does good work and ZM stated that ..because the proof was there.. He would be the first to compliment given the proof of good work..which he has done.. Z has kept the quality and awareness of movements and mod work here... at the expense of hate mail.. it just proves the character of the accusers..he has been the soul of RWG ... try writing a review.. as detailed .. and see how much time it takes.. yet alone be educational. I am venting at the moment .. there are always a few that cannot appreciate what ZM has done for RWG.. maybe they are not RWG'rs to begin with.. Sorry for going way off topic.. but this need to be said...... L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertk Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 I remember that lanikai. Truth will out. The Zigmeister, you've been a "lifesaver" to many on the forum and I truly understand your reticence to say anything. Sometimes, as in this case, it's worth it to save members from disasters such as these. You're a sensitive guy and that's important. Personally, If i were in your situation I'd either say, "I don't give a damn what others say, here's the real scoop".....or not say anything, in which case many members would have been truly disappointed with their selections. ....but this forum (and the others, as well) have only benefitted greatly from your contributions. I would suspect that many members would have abandoned the "hobby" if it weren't for you and your valuable insights and contributions. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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