stilty Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 looks like yuki is getting some attention on VRF: fake cases and parts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 Heh... and this guy's response, well, I can't say I disagree. And of course there's a causal relationship between his premise and complaint: "The governments of the world print fake money so why not have fake everything else. When prices come down to earth the profit in fakes will be gone and the fun will come back to the enthusiasts. The prices never should have gotten so crazy to begin with...these are all just old watches. We can like them...but we don't need to worship them." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 Amen, Chief. Thanks for posting his comments, I couldn't agree more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 What is funny is Rolex elected to abandon all of their customers when they discontinued supporting vintage watches. No one has ever more deserved being repped. They leave their long time supporters in a hole... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiman12 Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 I LOVE this VRF's comment!!! "This is why when I buy vintage I want to see signs of vintage" I bet our community modders LOVE that comment also! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblueprince Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 (edited) The problem is that as well as openly and honestly just selling refinished dials and rep parts, cases etc Yuki has multiple other ebay id's and is selling his rep cases in and as original vintage Rolex watches and a fair few people seem to have bought them over a number of years. A lot of people knew this was going on but for various reasons have kept quiet. Now a lot of people on gen forums are finding this out and are obviously not happy, quite rightly, as Yuki has ripped them off and is continuing to fraudulently sell rep cases as genuine Rolexes. Edited March 31, 2010 by TheBluePrince Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 "This is why when I buy vintage I want to see signs of vintage" Not sure I get the point of this? As to the topic at hand - Yuki is not the 1st (nor will he be the last) to engage (or be outed) in this type of activity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 The problem is that as well as openly and honestly just selling refinished dials and rep parts, cases etc Yuki has multiple other ebay id's and is selling his rep cases in and as original vintage Rolex watches and a fair few people seem to have bought them over a number of years. A lot of people knew this was going on but for various reasons have kept quiet. Now a lot of people on gen forums are finding this out and are obviously not happy, quite rightly, as Yuki has ripped them off and is continuing to fraudulently sell rep cases as genuine Rolexes. I'm neither denying nor agreeing that Yuki is involved in this (because I really don't know), but if he is then he CERTAINLY is not the only one. And at this point I'm fairly convinced that there are a select set of cases out there that, when used in fully pieced together franken projects, are going to not only fool EBay buyers but Rolex SCs as well. And I'm quite skeptical of "recent service papers, but no punch guarantee" sales of some specific models. I suspect it's more common than not nowadays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 I'm neither denying nor agreeing that Yuki is involved in this (because I really don't know), but if he is then he CERTAINLY is not the only one. And at this point I'm fairly convinced that there are a select set of cases out there that, when used in fully pieced together franken projects, are going to not only fool EBay buyers but Rolex SCs as well. And I'm quite skeptical of "recent service papers, but no punch guarantee" sales of some specific models. I suspect it's more common than not nowadays. Interesting that we were just talking about that the other day... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 Interesting that we were just talking about that the other day... One has to wonder how many of the 'indignant' members of VRF actually know quite a bit more than they are leading on.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 T'is a small world... And an interestingly complex weave of tangles throughout... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblueprince Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 I'm neither denying nor agreeing that Yuki is involved in this (because I really don't know), but if he is then he CERTAINLY is not the only one. And at this point I'm fairly convinced that there are a select set of cases out there that, when used in fully pieced together franken projects, are going to not only fool EBay buyers but Rolex SCs as well. And I'm quite skeptical of "recent service papers, but no punch guarantee" sales of some specific models. I suspect it's more common than not nowadays. Yes for sure the "others" are doing it too through other multiple Ebay id's. Yuki's been caught out though by using the same email address for PP payments as that he uses on his site and his yukiwatch Ebay id so there is no doubt whatsoever it is him. The others aren't so obvious. The case sets do indeed pass inspection at RSC's (confirmed by owners/buyers to have happened) as they have correct cloned serial numbers on. Like I said a lot of people have known it's been going on for quite some time but now certain VRF and TRF chaps have been caught out and got the bit between their teeth to out these sellers and publicise what is going on. As you can imgaine there are multiple reasons why sellers, collectors, modders etc have known about this but choosen to keep quiet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 Yes for sure the "others" are doing it too through other multiple Ebay id's. Yuki's been caught out though by using the same email address for PP payments as that he uses on his site and his yukiwatch Ebay id so there is no doubt whatsoever it is him. The others aren't so obvious. The case sets do indeed pass inspection at RSC's (confirmed by owners/buyers to have happened) as they have correct cloned serial numbers on. Like I said a lot of people have known it's been going on for quite some time but now certain VRF and TRF chaps have been caught out and got the bit between their teeth to out these sellers and publicise what is going on. As you can imgaine there are multiple reasons why sellers, collectors, modders etc have known about this but choosen to keep quiet. It's definitely out in the open not only on Ebay, but VRF, TRF, etc, etc... and as you say, has been for some time. But I guess I can still imagine that there are unknowing 'victims' on those forums, and they are right to raise hell. Personally, though, I have to chuckle when the occasional VRF mod posts the "No Franken Watches" reminder on the sales forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 From the existential / psychological perspective, isn't it fascinating what people will do when the very thing upon which they found their persona is brought into question? Really, think of the people behind the "Rolex" monicker and certain specific names pop out. If they "are" who they are, because they own certain Rolex models, and then the integrity of those models is brought under scrutiny, they react like it's a personal attack. Which, sadly, it is in a way. My advice is to be who you are by what you do, not by what you own. You can lose the one, you cannot lose the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 I like this one when a fake is suspected everytime one sees a Rolex being worn Perhaps the owner should wear a badge saying I am wearing a genuine Rolex watch, if in doubt, please stop me and ask for proof. happy.gifhappy.gif LOL Rgds Sparky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 From the existential / psychological perspective, isn't it fascinating what people will do when the very thing upon which they found their persona is brought into question? Really, think of the people behind the "Rolex" monicker and certain specific names pop out. If they "are" who they are, because they own certain Rolex models, and then the integrity of those models is brought under scrutiny, they react like it's a personal attack. Which, sadly, it is in a way. My advice is to be who you are by what you do, not by what you own. You can lose the one, you cannot lose the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pre V Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 It just seems that yesterday when Steve M. on VRF ousted Yuki as being the owner of 9 other sites catering to manufacturing of cases - identifying an actual name by the initials of T.F. --- this post was subsequently taken off by the mods/admins over there. Now, it is no surprise that this is continuation of what predecessors are still doing in the world of Rolex vintages. Dealers from Europe are still buying from Vietname suppliers, bear in mind this, these Viets are supplying full modifications, redone dials of course but with actual genuine movements, almost 1:1 engravings on the cases, and vintagized cases. From a 6542 which cost these dealers like 3500-4200 usd, once in the EU region, these are peddled for up to 18,000-25,000usd --- see the Math, margins and numerios umberto. Why not? Why yes? Collectors have a tendency to get sick of mass-produced modern pieces and retro-grading back into the world where timepieces are no longer manufactured. This phenomenon, in itself, spells more Motivated Suppliers wherever they may be. Long ago in the early 1980s, there were already variations of 6538 Big Crown dials coming out from Tuscany - closed family stirring up redone dials, even now in the possession of James Dowling. Still, these varieted dials are peddled off by renowned figures in the game, and passing them off as the genuines. What gives? Who knows? Who really really knows? He said, She said, lots of details get skewed, intertwined all over like tons of "seconds" needles in a haystack of hours and minutes. Back to Yuki, he's an individual who's introducing the "masses" to the market by means of price competition - no doubt businesses are good but in time, the genuine forums will notice but does anyone really care? Scary to some, then some better do some homework. It's all about striking a balance in knowing both realms, for one is able to distinguish - for the better or worse in efforts of safeguarding your hard-earned dollars, or perhaps redefining your replicafrankenisticals to another near-to-perfect level. To sell a replica and passing it off a gen, in hopes of accumulating market pricing, this I am against. But who's to say for others? Isn't this a world of number game to all? The incessant need to accumulate more wealth than one can actually achieve - the dollars are the driving force of this game. Each to his own - your preferences may not be in sync with mine, but its mine to behold anyways....The clear fact of the matter is that: Genuines and Replicas have co-existed for a long time, and will continue in the next 1000 years. Trust me on that...ain't no bloody patent, copyright laws aint' gonna do horseshit to a dimension that is so cement in our lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 As someone above said, they pretty much abandoned their vintage products for parts etc. It is funny the difference between the watch market and something like the auto market. When a auto mfg stops making parts for a car, the "aftermarket" is all over it. If you can't get that rare/discontinued Porsche part, chances are good you can find an aftermarket one. Jump to Rolex, and god forbid you need a new coin edge bezel. Sorry, you must either find an equally trashed used part at exorbitant prices or become a "fake/counterfeiter propagator". I am not defending Yuki or anyone that passes rep as gen. This might be a left field idea, but, is Rolex not aware of the popularity and heritage of their vintage product line? We have seen manufactures revive, re-introduce, reinterpret some of their older lines. The retro thing. Take the Breitling Heritage series, or even the basic Doxa still 1960's based look. Wouldn't be in everyone's best interest if Rolex introduced a Heritage line? Maybe even dusted off some of the old tooling's and made limited editions? If people could walk into an AD and buy a Heritage 6538, or Subs/SD's were offered with LE Red writing dials it might de-value some of the vintage crazyness/prices. Just a thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 Wouldn't be in everyone's best interest if Rolex introduced a Heritage line? Maybe even dusted off some of the old tooling's and made limited editions? If people could walk into an AD and buy a Heritage 6538, or Subs/SD's were offered with LE Red writing dials it might de-value some of the vintage crazyness/prices. Well, to an extent, they've tried with the Milgauss, TOG, the new Tudor Heritage Chrono, etc. though I am not completely confident that their past efforts were really implemented correctly (the new Tudor chrono looks promising, however). What would really be a feather in Rolex's cap is if they finally opened the long rumored (and awaited) heritage division of service; rather than shutting out the vintage folks by turning away service for certain models or calibers based on age of production, they should embrace their heritage, and offer support for all their watches, past and present. Patek and AP will gladly support their customer's time piece, no matter how old or far back it goes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 Rolex wants you to buy a new watch. Say what you will about their marketing strategy, but this is 1 of the reasons why Rolex has remained the top dog in premium watch sales for the past 50 years (& probably why a company like Patek, whose marketing strategy has always been to keep every watch the company has ever made running, is not). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefcook Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 Patek is another league, it really is one of if net even THE top brand in haute horlogerie. Patek is not a brand for starters, Rolex is. Rolex watches are pretty good value for being a completely in house produced manufacture watch and considering the moderate maintainance costs Rolex watches are close to being the perfect every day and every occasion watch. Patek's goal never was to be that, Patek just wanted to make the best watches in the world and they probably do. Patek is a very small company compared to Rolex but still making very good profit. It is like comparing Mercedes Benz and Bentley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 It is like comparing Mercedes Benz and Bentley. Some good points & I often view Rolex & M-B as being very similar companies in quality, innovation & breadth of their models. However, at least for this particular discussion, I do not think this is a good comparison since M-B, unlike Rolex (I assume you were equating Rolex/M-B & Patek/Bentley), still makes parts for & services every car they have ever made & neither M-B nor Bentley are the clear leaders in their respective markets the way Rolex is in theirs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted April 1, 2010 Report Share Posted April 1, 2010 Please re-read my post. My comment was not a comparison of the two brands, but rather policy and the fact that Patek and/or AP are still willing to support their product in the aftersales category; watches of complicated nature with no limit on age. If they made it, they stand behind it. Sadly, Rolex does not stand behind their heritage... At least, not to the level that they should, considering their relatively uncomplicated watches that share many of the base components and concepts. If the original manufacturer does not stand behind their product, then what does that tell collectors? Essentially i) your old Rolex is not worth keeping; trade it in for a new one (your watch is essentially disposable, only good for 10 or so years) and ii) we're not afraid to turn our back on you. Last I checked, AP and Patek are still selling new watches, so cutting off your consumers who are likely to buy new and collect vintage isn't that great of a marketing sttategy. Especially considering that a typical modern/new Rolex is usually purchased not for it's horological merit, but rather as a symbol of status for someone who wants to show the world that he/she has made it in life (rolls eyes). So, I fail to see how not supporting your vintage customers will force them into buying a modern; the vintage collectors are the connoisseurs, not the status symbol seekers (they're likely far, far, far beyond that), though many of them purchase the new models as well. It's the wrong demographic of consumer to be snubbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted April 1, 2010 Report Share Posted April 1, 2010 Totally agree, Ubi. It's likely that 90%+ of the people buying a shiny new Rolex don't have a clue that Rolex isn't standing behind their heritage. They're not collectors, connoisseurs, etc. This policy certainly wasn't born in the marketing department; it isn't a ploy to get you to buy a new watch, etc. It was an economic decision of choosing bigger fish to fry. It's a symptom, in my opinion, of prioritization and cost controls by company with limited resources who is now (mass) producing a product that is sold in every corner of every shopping mall across the world. Their marketing plan, to be sure, is genius. But this certainly isn't a part of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted April 1, 2010 Report Share Posted April 1, 2010 Quite right, chief. It's interesting that most watch manufacturers embrace their past; their heritage. It's integrated into their marketing to help shape their image as a long standing house of horological excellence. Rolex on the other hand is willing to give the cold shoulder to their history... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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