Watch Professional's Opinions Requested

[Drulee]

I believe this forum has the most actual watch professionals on it, as it has all the top ones from the other fora as members as well, so I'm posing this question/clarification here.

After learning as much as possible about our replica watches here and on other rep and impartial gen fora, I am of the assumption that when talking about 6497 or standard 7750 powered watches, the only difference between the so called 'gen' and its Asian counterpart is the lack of Q.C. and proper servicing of the Asian ones parts. Of course, I am only talking about function here, not aesthetics.

With this in mind, if the Asian counter part where to be put through a post manufacture quality control check, with all defective or suspect parts replaced. Then it was to be properly cleaned, movement serviced, and tested. Would the resulting timepiece be equivalent (or say %98 of) in quality and function to that of a Swiss one for everyday wearing? I include the condition 'everyday wearing', because I want to stress that the watch would never be subjected to an extreme environment, in other words no deep sea diving or trips to the North Pole or Mount Everest with them

Or I am I living in a fantasy world, and have interpreted all the studies and articles the wrong way?

[Whatever123]

I am not a watch professional... but I think, there still would be differences, at least in quality. The chinese movements lack the finish and "exactness" in manufacturing of their swiss counterparts. Doesn't neccesarily mean they are inferior function-wise...at least short-term - but if I would have to guess which movement is still running after, say 10 years... I wouldn't bet my money on the chinese one.

[Watchmeister]

Fantasy world. I think there is general consensus that with proper servicing an Asian 6497 or 7750 model can perform just fine. But don't underestimate the fact that beyond the lack of servicing the basic parts may well be inferior both as to materials and finishing. There is also the confusing element of "Swiss ETA" movements coming in our reps which are often bastardized. In the case of Breitling and PAM (both ETA based brands)there are significant differences. That doesn't mean that the Asian version can't function equally well or that the price difference is justified. I have purposely had Ziggy service reps and gens of similar movement watches at the same time to understand the differences - whether it be a reworked mainspring, additional jewels, substantially improved rotor and rotor mechanism, etc. For instance on the PAM's I was surprised to learn that there is significantly more rework on the automatics than the 6497's. Bearing in mind that the 6497 should really be a 6497-2. Bet you didn't know that the date pusher function on a gen daylight is a beautifully engineered three piece assemblage designed to hold that pusher firmly in place and to allow for the pusher contacting the movement at the same spot every time it is pushed - not a pusher with a spring on it. If Ziggy sees this he can chime in.

[Drulee]

I am not a watch professional... but I think, there still would be differences, at least in quality. The chinese movements lack the finish and "exactness" in manufacturing of their swiss counterparts.

I don't think that is true anymore.

Fantasy world. I think there is general consensus that with proper servicing an Asian 6497 or 7750 model can perform just fine. But don't underestimate the fact that beyond the lack of servicing the basic parts may well be inferior both as to materials and finishing. There is also the confusing element of "Swiss ETA" movements coming in our reps which are often bastardized. In the case of Breitling and PAM (both ETA based brands)there are significant differences. That doesn't mean that the Asian version can't function equally well or that the price difference is justified. I have purposely had The Zigmeister service reps and gens of similar movement watches at the same time to understand the differences - whether it be a reworked mainspring, additional jewels, substantially improved rotor and rotor mechanism, etc. For instance on the PAM's I was surprised to learn that there is significantly more rework on the automatics than the 6497's. Bearing in mind that the 6497 should really be a 6497-2. Bet you didn't know that the date pusher function on a gen daylight is a beautifully engineered three piece assemblage designed to hold that pusher firmly in place and to allow for the pusher contacting the movement at the same spot every time it is pushed - not a pusher with a spring on it. If The Zigmeister sees this he can chime in.

I seem to remember The Zigmeister actually saying that the parts in the Asian movements are no longer really inferior to the Swiss ones, especially when cherry picked afterwards (which is what would be done in the 'post manufacture' q.c. procedure I mentioned). I've also seen this mentioned on a couple of articles in other, non-rep, fora where the author of the article was a professional watchsmith and had stripped down various Seagull ST36 movements to compare to an ETA one (I'll try and find one of the links if necessary). As for that date pusher, it falls into that %2 I mention

EDIT: How is it your post says "Zigg y", while mine always has that automatically replaced with "The Zigmeister"

[maxman]

[freddy333]

....there is general consensus that with proper servicing an Asian 6497 or 7750 model can perform just fine. But don't underestimate the fact that beyond the lack of servicing the basic parts may well be inferior both as to materials and finishing.

Additionally, I think there are 3 main points to be considered when comparing Asian-made copies/clones of the 775x (I have limited hands-on experience with the 6497) with their ETA-made counterparts. 1st, there is little or no QC involved in the manufacture of rep movements or installation of them into rep watches. 2nd, there are definite qualitative differences in the materials & workmanship that go into the A775x. Some of these may affect the movement's ultimate longevity, some may not. Time will tell. 3rd, there are some design differences between the Asian & Swiss made 775x, which means that some parts are interchangeable & some are not (if you need an itemized listing of differences, you will need to research these on your own).

Overall, at least in the case of the A775x, I think most here would say that, properly serviced by a competent watchmaker, the A775x is nearly as reliable as the ETA. And, considering the cost differential, a good & reasonable alternative.

[Drulee]

I just want to remind those that respond here, to keep in mind that I am referring to only 6497 and basic 7750 movements. And that the Asian movements will have been thoroughly examined, all parts that show any sign of deficiency replaced with ones that don't, thoroughly cleaned, then properly oiled and re-assembled in a sterile environment AFTER receiving it from the dealer.

[Watchmeister]

I just want to remind those that respond here, to keep in mind that I am referring to only 6497 and basic 7750 movements. And that the Asian movements will have been thoroughly examined, all parts that show any sign of deficiency replaced with ones that don't, thoroughly cleaned, then properly oiled and re-assembled in a sterile environment AFTER receiving it from the dealer.

Now I get the question. If someone were to break down an Asian movement, look for all imperfect parts, replace those parts with new perfect ones (assuming they had access to those spare parts and those perfect spare parts existed in Asian form (remember some basic parts are often made of inferior materials)) and then serviced it in a clean room - would it be as good as an ETA? I still say no. It certainly would run well though. But I also have to say that you can find an Asian movement used by the gen companies (Seiko, etc.) which is every bit as good.

Having said all that I agree with Freddy. A well serviced run of the mill Asian 6497 or 775_ movement is just fine for most reps.

[Toadtorrent]

That's the thing...a gen ETA will always be better...but is a serviced A7750 good enough? It's a watch...not a surgical tool (then again, if you've seen how some surgical tools are used...this probably isn't the best example). It will keep time...reliably...and with the servicing...will last according to Zig as long as an ETA. The issue will be that if parts need replacement...that might be a problem...and that's where a gen ETA is always better if anything...because of the parts supply and serviceability.

[Drulee]

Now I get the question. If someone were to break down an Asian movement, look for all imperfect parts, replace those parts with new perfect ones (assuming they had access to those spare parts and those perfect spare parts existed in Asian form (remember some basic parts are often made of inferior materials)) and then serviced it in a clean room - would it be as good as an ETA? I still say no. It certainly would run well though. But I also have to say that you can find an Asian movement used by the gen companies (Seiko, etc.) which is every bit as good.

Having said all that I agree with Freddy. A well serviced run of the mill Asian 6497 or 775_ movement is just fine for most reps.

That's the thing...a gen ETA will always be better...but is a serviced A7750 good enough? It's a watch...not a surgical tool (then again, if you've seen how some surgical tools are used...this probably isn't the best example). It will keep time...reliably...and with the servicing...will last according to Zig as long as an ETA. The issue will be that if parts need replacement...that might be a problem...and that's where a gen ETA is always better if anything...because of the parts supply and serviceability.

Alright, now you understand my understand my question

But given what you both acknowledge, that the movement will run well, last as long with regular servicing, and will keep time reliably, how can you still state that movement isn't as good? The only possible reason I see you offering is the lack of availability of parts, which I just do not believe is the case any more, especially for the 6497. They seem to be more abundant than ETA parts, and at the cost of just having one ETA part shipped to you And you are still not taking into account that even ETA movements break down.

[Toadtorrent]

For the 6497 that might not be an issue for parts supply. For an A7750.current models seem to sometimes take gen ETA replacement parts...and sometimes not. With the Asian copies of things like the Seagull version of the ETA 2824...The Zigmeister has shown that the parts aren't compatible...aside from datewheels.

In many cases, the cost of servicing is more than the cost of a replacement movement...many times over...if you can do the movement replacement. This makes taking your chances on the asian movement a better financial gamble than going for the servicing.

The other issue is that the Asian movements come in so many varieties with different cannon pinion heights, hand size requirements, etc, that it can be a pain sometimes to do the movement replacement...and find the right movement...

With these factors in mind...remember that, unserviced, some folks have had their A7750 movements run fine for many years...others for 6 months...so the economic calculation of serviced A7750 vs. unserviced A7750 vs. gen ETA can be a bit tricky.

With a gen ETA out of the bubble wrap...frustration avoidance can make it possible worth spending the extra for this kind of movement. If you're not sure if you want to keep the watch for awhile, and are happy with having something to play with for a year...then servicing is not likely worth it.

These are the things that run through my head when I'm deciding which route to go with.

The dealers can generally get you the replacement movements if you want too...that's something else to consider.

[Toadtorrent]

Duplicate post...

[Drulee]

So nice, you had to say it twice? j/k

Sure, I agree with most of what you say, but that is addressing the point of my original post. To try and be a bit clearer, I am only referring to 6497 and base 7750 movements. I am not suggesting that ETA parts are going to be used to replace the defective parts found in any of the movements, just parts that have been examined and properly cleaned be they Asian or ETA. I am not considering the use of outside parties either, as I am perfectly capable now of stripping down, cleaning, and oiling both of these movements myself, so if something does go wrong I will be the one doing the work on it. I also do not intend to be cycling through many different brands of reps, just my current collection of favorite rep PAMs, and maybe one or two others

[Toadtorrent]

Zig had done some analysis on things like the shape of gear teeth and found that on the gen ETAs they had more complex shaping of the teeth to create an epicycloidal train. The tooth shape increased efficiency of the movement reducing overall system friction...so in that sense, the ETA could be better...but very difficult to ascertain the real overall benefit in terms of longevity or reliability. Something to consider. Good for you on your movement servicing abilities...awesome stuff.

[Watchmeister]

Given that you are able to break down, repair, service a movement and find any parts necessary if it does break down there is no reason for you to use ETA rather than Asian. But that is because you have skills and it sounds like you enjoy it.

But I ain't going to lie - if I can afford it I go with ETA. Let's just call it silly rep snobbery.

[automatico]

Here are a couple very good reviews of ST/Seagull movements compared to eta:

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/how-do-seagull-hangzhou-compare-eta-depth-look-216945.html

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/st18-eta-2892-2-review-257999-post1877057.html

[FxrAndy]

The seagul 6498s and 7s i have had a lot of time to play with i have found to be every bit as good as a unitas, if ct out of the box i generaly find them better regulated from the factory than swiss.

when it comes to 7750s i only have a bit of experience but the swiss go back together easyer, most parts fall/fitt in to the right location the asian dont seam to have this ability they need to be coaxed back together.

[upland]

But I also have to say that you can find an Asian movement used by the gen companies (Seiko, etc.) which is every bit as good.

I am dreaming all the time about some DSSD or Pam with Seiko/Orient engine inside...

[Toadtorrent]

I am dreaming all the time about some DSSD or Pam with Seiko/Orient engine inside...

You and me both. The Seiko movements are readily available, solid and serviceable at good prices...why can't they use these as an alternative to ETAs???

[Drulee]

But I ain't going to lie - if I can afford it I go with ETA. Let's just call it silly rep snobbery.

Yup, that's what I think many are hung up on

Here are a couple very good reviews of ST/Seagull movements compared to eta:

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/how-do-seagull-hangzhou-compare-eta-depth-look-216945.html

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/st18-eta-2892-2-review-257999-post1877057.html

Thanks for the links, I've actually read those threads, but again they are not the movements in question. (but I do believe similar threads exist for the 7750 and 6497 showing the quality on the latest Asian offerings)

You and me both. The Seiko movements are readily available, solid and serviceable at good prices...why can't they use these as an alternative to ETAs???

Because the Swiss P.R. machine has drilled it into the consumer's head that unless it says 'Swiss Made' on the watch/movement, it is of lower quality and a lesser timepiece.

And I am still convinced that with my scenario, Asian versions of certain 6497 and 7750 reps are nearly as good as their Swiss counterparts, especially with the above mentioned inspection and service after purchase, and assuming the watch is not going to be exposed to the extremes (Deep Sea diving, extreme climates, etc,) which the majority of gens wouldn't be.

[Drulee]

One more thing, which I forgot to mention. When I refer to the 7750 movements in question, as 'base', I mean the non-chronograph ones. The A7750 which has had all its unnecessary chrono levers and cogs removed, so that it is basically an automatic movement, with date only, and seconds at '9' (not centre). Yup, you guessed it, PAM base autos, like the 091, 086, etc.

[Toadtorrent]

And I am still convinced that with my scenario, Asian versions of certain 6497 and 7750 reps are nearly as good as their Swiss counterparts, especially with the above mentioned inspection and service after purchase, and assuming the watch is not going to be exposed to the extremes (Deep Sea diving, extreme climates, etc,) which the majority of gens wouldn't be.

I agree operationally. Again...once serviced, parts wearing down shouldn't really be that much of an issue...but if something needs to be replaced...it may or may not get difficult.

I think they are still the best value for the A7750...especially without the chrono mechanism.

As to going to extremes...that's more an issue of case construction than the movement.

[Drulee]

As to going to extremes...that's more an issue of case construction than the movement.

Yes, which is why the rep cases are more than adequate for the majority of watch wearers. Especially when they are nearly identical in finish, size, shape, and weight to their gen counterpart.

So have we determined that the Asian 6497 and 7750, all parts inspected, cleaned and serviced, without a parts supply problem, would perform as well, and last as long as their ETA counterparts?

[Francisco]

I bought a couple of ETA 7750 movement for myself. I never used them and finally I sold them.

So now you know what I think about a serviced Asian

[pompe]

I have no experience of 7750 but a seagull st36xx i think could easily be compared to a ETA649x i dont know about the Hangzhou variants for some reason i have got the impression That seagull makes the better versions.

But for arguments sake lets say a gen is better . How much better do you think it is not much i might differ some +/- 10 sec a day. And on a watch you have to wind once a day you can take the time to set it to an atomic clock anyway ! Also on a pam clone with that mini second hand and indices every 5 min you will never ever notice it anyway ! And of course you can buy a new seagull st36 for less then it cost to service the old one.

Also a gen 649x is really nothing special today if one wants a beautiful movement go fora Hamilton or a Cortebert or some other decorated vintage movement even gen 649x movements are as plain as vanilla ice cream now days