Panerai and its history...

[Defender110]

Thoughts about panerai and their history... About a year ago I took down my frogman statue because although I think he's cool (a highly skilled well equipted diver) the history of the frogmen is distasteful. Now at this point I am sure alot of responses will be.. “Modern Panerai has nothing to do with Fascism or the anti-Semetism of 60yrs ago!!”.. however i think this is not always true for several reasons.. One is that modern Panerai has built up a following today by stongly associating the brand with vintage products and the strong history of being a tool watch for military use, hence it has had to set and achieve higher standards than for the public so you should like it more. And second that once a collector is drawn to Panerai the modern watches lose there appeal and they are overtime drawn to more and more vintage items so much so that panerai WIS sometimes build and assemble their own ‘vintage homage’ and are as such are drawn closer to the association of the history.

How do you feel and/or how do you balance the strong negativity associated with panerai and your modern day collecting and feelings about the brand?

Any one that posts in this thread must set a high standard of thoughtfulness and respect and I trust that the mods will censor any posts deemed inflamatory or divisive. Remember this Forum is about watches and our common uniting hobby.

[w0lf]

I don't have a direct answer for you, just another question. Should African American people stop wearing cotton apparel? If you feel strongly about big business links to the Nazi regime, why not apply this logic and stop using all products and services from others involved:

Ford, BMW, Audi, Porsche, Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, Bosch, Siemens, Bayer, UBS, etc., etc.

[kuli]

You can add Hugo Boss to that list and lets face it if you buy a rep you are probably supporting Mao Zedong's Chinese communism:D

No use reading too much into our fascination with metals that tell time.

[mactower]

I don't have a direct answer for you, just a question. Should African American people stop wearing cotton apparel? If you feel strongly about big business links to the Nazi regime why not apply this logic and stop using all products and services from others involved:

Ford, BMW, Audi, Porsche, Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, Bosch, Siemens, Bayer, UBS, etc., etc.

Agreed, you can't fault a company, or it's shareholders, for actions taken by a few, many years ago. Where do you draw the line?

[brockelhorst]

They shouldn't, but still you could consider that america and other countries, that have built part of their fortune on slavery, would have an moral obligation to indemnify the offspring of the victims.

For private companies, its a bit more difficult i guess.

Personnaly i don't know much about Panerais History, but these Kampfschwimmer watches are a bit too much.

I don't have a direct answer for you, just a question. Should African American people stop wearing cotton apparel? If you feel strongly about big business links to the Nazi regime why not apply this logic and stop using all products and services from others involved:

Ford, BMW, Audi, Porsche, Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, Bosch, Siemens, Bayer, UBS, etc., etc.

[chefcook]

...

Ford, BMW, Audi, Porsche, Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, Bosch, Siemens, Bayer, UBS, etc., etc.

and don't forget General Motors with their German subcompany Opel.

Being fascinated be a highly trained, well equiped diver is IMO not comparable with endorsing racism and fascism.

Panerais History is about building equipment for professionals with high quality standards and not about Mussolini or Hitler.

[w0lf]

Panerai's history would not exist had it been just about "building equipment for professionals" or the craft watchmaking itself. At the heart of every company's survival and success is its clients. The fact remains that Panerai chose the highly profitable path of a government/military contractor. There's no denying of the Nazi past. However, I don't think that modern Panerai watch wearers chose them for their Nazi/Fascist allegiances. I would bet that most who wear Panerai have no idea about brand's history. On the other hand those that fancy themselves Panerai aficionados simply fell in love with a combination of a carefully crafted marketing fairy tale loosely based, or how the Hollywood likes to call it "inspired by real events", and an air sprezzatura surrounding their undeniably-italian design.

Lastly, something you may find of interest as well - Germany is the largest importer of Israeli goods in Europe and Volkswagen is the leading imported automobile make in Israel. I think that as a people we move forward and persevere by fortifying intrinsically beneficial moral, cultural and economic relationships instead of dwelling on what enormous damage and pain someone has caused us or we've caused each other over the years.

[txcollector]

back to the original question, if you research the story of the decima flottiglia mas you will see them as a bunch of brave navy servicemen that had a mission to defend their country in time of war. Regardless of what Mussolini's ambitions were, these guys were brave divers way before the politics played a part.

Panerai was the manufacturer that provided instruments for the Italian Navy at the time. When they were asked to build instruments for the special forces they did it, much like any defense contractor will do regardless if they agree with the politicians or not.

Case in point when Italy turned against Germany after Mussolini was ousted in 43 many joined the allies to fight Germany.

I think confusing the horological history of Panerai, the actions of a military special forces at a time of war and the politics of crazy leaders like Hitler and Mussolini is not very helpful.

[FxrAndy]

Also you should not wear big pilots as most are styled after the B-Uhr used by nazi pilots used to bomb England but also lets not wear IWC MK xvi in a protest at the fire bombing of Dresden.

[chefcook]

Panerai's history would not exist had it been just about "building equipment for professionals" or the craft watchmaking itself.

Panerai is about seventy years longer in business than fascists and nazis. They built equipment for professionals long before WW2.

[w0lf]

TX,

I don't think this is quite so. We're talking about stigma which kind of an all-encompassing deal if you ask me. When you use your argument's logic you eventually drill all the way down to the regular German soldiers that were defending what was rapidly becoming a home turf battle in late 1944 for Germany. Were they brave soldiers fighting for their country and their families, I think the answer to this would be yes. Had the circumstances been slightly different, I could speculate that those very same soldiers would be burning down Russian and Ukranian villages with defenseless women, incapacitated elderly and children alive in stick huts, while the men were fighting away from home.. Or these soldiers would be rounding up the Jews in Poland and Ukraine concentration camps for (Siemens-made, Bayer zyclon powered) ovens or stuffing them into gasenwagens (built by Opel). Again, bravely fighting for their country, their leader and following orders.

War is hell and people are monsters, I don't understand how you can vouch for these Italian navy guys....The fact that they're "fair-weather fascists" doesn't add to their honor in my eyes either.

[Defender110]

please note that the original post was went to create dialog and insite. i personally am not torn on my collection or collection habits. i collect and will collect gen and rep panerai and other brands, and have my wife and i have a garage filled with german(BMW, MB) and italian(Ducati, Aprilia) marques.

[Eton]

back to the original question, if you research the story of the decima flottiglia mas you will see them as a bunch of brave navy servicemen that had a mission to defend their country in time of war. Regardless of what Mussolini's ambitions were, these guys were brave divers way before the politics played a part.

Panerai was the manufacturer that provided instruments for the Italian Navy at the time. When they were asked to build instruments for the special forces they did it, much like any defense contractor will do regardless if they agree with the politicians or not.

Case in point when Italy turned against Germany after Mussolini was ousted in 43 many joined the allies to fight Germany.

I think confusing the horological history of Panerai, the actions of a military special forces at a time of war and the politics of crazy leaders like Hitler and Mussolini is not very helpful.

Couldn't have said it better!

[w0lf]

Panerai is about seventy years longer in business than fascists and nazis. They built equipment for professionals long before WW2.

How is that contradictory to what I said? They were in business precisely because of their choice of clients. Today's Panerai is a '90s phoenix brand with only about 18 years of uninterrupted horological history. It has nothing to do with the Panerai being discussed aside from the recycled heritage.

[txcollector]

War is hell and people are monsters, I don't understand how you can vouch for these Italian navy guys....The fact that they're "fair-weather" fascists doesn't add to their honor in my eyes either.

w0lf,

the point I'm trying to make is that the Italian Navy special forces (flotilla mas) had a mission within the Navy to man torpedoes and sink ships. During WWI they fought against Germany and Austria-Hungry. In WWII they fought the allies in the battles of the Mediterranean. Same people same training told what to do by the powers above.

The role of Panerai was to equip the Italian Navy with instruments for its ships and personnel. Panerai was an Italian company working for the Italian military much like Boeing and Lockheed do for the US government.

Their method of underwater assault was very brave and effective to the point the British copied their methods and technology at the end of WWII.

It's always emotional to attach stigma from the politics of those orchestrating the wars to the people that a mission to fulfill. I for one admire the ingenuity and courage of strapping myself to a torpedo with a rudder, plant a bomb on a hull of a large ship and get out of there using 3 simple instruments to do so.

The atrocities of WWII are undeniable but to consider a vintage Panerai a symbol of Nazism or fascism is a bit of a stretch imho. If you do that any technology related to any war at all could follow the same trend: the VW bug, rockets that came from Germany and eventually led to the Saturn V, GPS, airplanes, etc.

[Drulee]

Well I say that those who want to demonstrate that they have very high moral standards, and only want to take into account a country's actions for the past 100 years, not buy any wristwatches or products at all, unless they are completely free of Swiss, Chinese, and Japanese manufactured parts (good luck with that). Do I need to go into the reasons why for each country?

[w0lf]

So "they're only Nazi if you are"?

I enjoy Panerai watches and have no problem wearing them but I don't care for the frogmen tales. I picked my sides a long time ago, my grandparents on both sides of the family fought in WWII, both men and women. Not for a couple of years or a tour, they went start to finish, June '41 to May '45 in Berlin. In additon my grandfather on maternal side went on to fight in the Pacific theater against the Japanese for almost another year after the allies' victory in Berlin. The stories I grew up hearing from them and their brothers in arms are enough to fill several books. The Decima Mas thing not so much.

[pompe]

All modern bolt action rifles (well almost) are in one way or the other a version of the old Mauser that was used by the Germans in both of the world wars. is it therefor immoral to use anything else then mussle loaders when i hunt ?

Also look into the practise of using what is essential slave labour in Chinese work camps that goes on as we speak and think twice next time you buy that cheap made in china product (probably not affecting the watch industry)

There is enough stuff going on in the world right now that is evil that one can focus on instead of something that took place 60-70 years ago. for example western mega corporations and how they treat workers and the environment in the developing countries. what the US is doing in the middle east (got to keep that cheap oil flowing no matter what the cost to others)

[Watchmeister]

I come out where many others do. If you actually own gen panerai your watch was most likely built by Vendome or Richemont. Further I do think that as many folks have said that approach implies you will never touch anything German again - irrespective of the fact that many of the german people and their corporations have gone to great lengths to try and atone for a dark past. As Wolf said up above, to this day most taxis in Israel are Mercedes sold at very discounted rates to show goodwill to Israel for past atrocities.

I do understand the vintage comment. A good portion of those watches were built at a very dark time in Italy's history. Certainly the case of a number of the 3646's. My personal favorites the 6152's were actually built in the 60's. But I have thought long and hard about what I would wear and I must say that I would never glorify the era wearing a piece which is actually inscribed with Kampfschwimmer type writing. To me that is akin to wearing true Nazi memorabilia or even worse in the case of homage watches going to the trouble to creat Nazi memorabilia. My 2 cents.

[Drulee]

irrespective of the fact that many of the german people and their corporations have gone to great lengths to try and atone for a dark past.

Which is more than can be said for the Russian, Japanese, Chinese, and other world leaders of the past who have, and in some cases still do, commit(ed) atrocities against other and their own citizens/soldiers. And don't fool yourself, the German war machine of the Second World War would not have been as successful as it was if not for the financing and banking providing or facilitated through or by the Swiss (neutral, hah).

[seraphe]

I don't care much about the history of the brand. I only care about the design, features and purpose of the products. History is history. The current new designs have no impact on the political or sociological states of the past... it can't, not unless we can transfer the profits back in time to support the war.

Current designs can only change the world tomorrow... not the past.

[PeteM]

I have never associated Panerai with anything other than being a great watch, the history in its entirety gives the brand an interesting angle but no more than that. If I were to associate most of the everyday items I or others use with darker times I would find myself without not only the luxuries but also the necessities of daily life.

Many individuals, companies, institutions, organisations and countries have dark aspects to their recent history, known and unknown and in peacetime and in War.

I am just grateful that because of the outcome of the conflict in question, I do not find myself now having to make the sort of decisions that were forced upon many people in the lead up to and during that time of world conflict.

[mwa]

This thread is deep hahaha. Very interesting history class! =) Good job guys! +1

[Dani]

No I enjoy the brands rich history, I am sure the divers where good people doing what they thought where right.

Hugo Boss made the SS uniforms, still it does not hold me back from buying a HB suit.

Almost every country got some history that some people will dislike..

[panerai153]

Every country in the world has a dark past. Read history, atrocities were committed by every country at some point in time,some more heinous than others. however, I don't believe that the child should suffer from the sins of the father. It's a pretty big stretch to say that the folks of this era should be atoning for events that were committed decades or centuries ago. So when one says that the present day citizens of a county should compensate the victims of events that played out over a hundred and fifty years ago, well to me that is unfathomable.

The events that took place in WWII were terrible beyond imagination. Atrocities were committed by all sides, but as someone said, "War is Hell". I would suspect that the Italian Special Forces troops were doing the same thing that US Special forces, Navy Seals, etc. do they are fighting for their country. I would suspect that the average guy on the ground is not interested in the ideology. His training is to accomplish a task assigned to him, be it peeling potato's for the mess hall, or riding a 2 man torpedo designed to take out an enemy warship. So IMHO, the young commandos were nothing more than brave young men who were fighting for their motherland. They were given a task to accomplish and they did the best that they could to carry out their orders. Another thing to remember, they were fighting in Italian waters, they didn't invade other countries, completely without provocation. and kill millions of civilians, under the guise of "Ethnic cleansing"

I agree with Watchmeister, I'm not a fan of those who aggrandize WWII memorabilia, however I wouldn't condemn a company like Panerai,for instance, because they were involved as part of their countries war machine. If I had that attitude, then practically every product made by companies in Germany and Italy as well as many here in the United States would be disqualified.

I believe that what this boils down to in the end is everyone has to make a personal decision about where they stand as regards to questions like "Should I display memorabilia (Frogmen statue in this case)from a very dark time in this planets history"? I would think that it would be like me having a model of the Enola Gay on my desk. IS it correct? In my eyes possibly I can justify it, to others, it's an abomination. So from my perspective, this is and unanswerable question. Sort of like arguing religion or politics.