plaifender Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 You guys need some of these. that's pretty dumb seroberts.. I'm somewhat of a gun enthusiast and I think you're dumb.. Give people guns in London.. that will make things better. p.s I'm assuming from your comments that you're just longing for the day that a riot will break loose in texas so you can use that on some people and teach them a real lesson about justice.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sempire Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 The thing is that you have three type of immigrants. Those who want to come to a new place, integrate, contribute and work towards a better future. Those who don't want to follow rules, and the order of their new country, they are just there to take And those who want to turn their new country into their old country without the problems of being killed or having no rights like back home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastrmindalliance Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 The Aussie Govt has attracted a lot of flak for their policies regarding refugee/asylum seekers. I'm not sure what the external image is, but believe me, it's a hot topic internally. A day barely goes by without a story of boat people or an attack by the Left over the Government's policies. The issue is a real land mine. Neither political party mentions it, knowing full well that the parties have been and continue to do back door deals with our neighboring countries to curb the flow of boatpeople. Putting it rather bluntly, they cost a lot of money and provide an ongoing financial burden for very little, if any gain to the Australian Public. Australia takes thousands of migrants yearly who either come on skilled work visas or have some demonstrated some aptitude and are willing to work. This is the same for current citizens who are expected to pull their own weight, so to speak. I know from first-hand experience that the biggest welfare cheats are 1st generation migrants who maintain their 'hearts' in the old country. The issue of people of particular faiths not adapting to their new environments is an interesting one. This idea of instituting Sharia'a law by an Islamist minority in England, a predominantly Anglo - Christian country for over a Millenium is beyond flagrant arrogance. Not that Britain and America's (and by proxy - Australia's) interventionist policies in the Middle East help the situation, but the sense of entitlement from these people, and the refugees who expect a coutry to which they have no national, cultural or religious ties, to open up their arms and welcome them for free and to support them financially as if they have some obligation to do so, is ludicrous. Then, they demand to institute their Barbaric, Banal Bronze-Age Belief systems as a replacement for the Rule of Law? It was proposed in Australia (and I suspect elsewhere in the West) that Sharia'a Courts are established to deal with 'Muslim' matters. What a joke. Lots to think about here. I suspect Europe (and Britain ) have a lot on their plates presently, and these issues need to be nipped in the bud before the minority become a ruling majority. Sorry for whole quote, but this excellent post would lose it's context if i edited it, so i bolded the parts i'm referring to... This is the sentiment held by 'born here' Australians. I agree with it. The educated left argue that this is a sentiment only held by the uneducated. But in my own personal experience i know this to be fact. The aggressive irony of those new Australians who come here with nothing... who came here because there was very little to attain in their original country... who came here because of the opportunities that that good Aussie "hard yakka" (working hard) presents... yet expect more entitlements than citizens - is astounding. The thing is, i am also well educated. Does it make me uneducated by default because i personally know successful Filipino business owners who collect the dole (welfare) here but operate their businesses back home? I also personally know two elderly Englishmen who recieve aged welfare payments from both the Australian and UK governments. I personally know an entire family of Chinese who own a 'wildest dreams' mansion here in Aus that sits empty for 9 months of the year but they still manage to rort our system. They collect welfare here yet operate a very successful business out of Hong Kong. I know a person of Greek heritage who escaped a prison sentence here for a pretty nasty crime by fleeing back to greece even though it meant he would have to do National service there (the reason he came to aus in the first place). I know Lebonese australians who portend to hate australia and other Australians (not just white people), yet love their free government payments. I know Malaysian immigrants who won't mingle or even work with non-muslims because of their beliefs. if i thought a little harder about it, i'm sure i could come up with many more example from my own circle of friends just like these examples. It's a land of opportunity alright. We’ve golden soil and wealth for toil but who's toiling it and who's reaping the rewards of that toil? I also know people from just about every heritage on the planet, including those mentioned above who are honest, and love the country and are assimilated perfectly. We are an entire nation of immigrants - just ask someone from any of the 600ish cultures of Australian indigenous. It's complex. The situation here in Aus is quite worriesome. Our future will be highly complex. An ideal solution (that would maintain our very high standard of living and quality of life), while remaining culturally sound (and I mean culturally sound from any perspective) is highly unlikely. One thing is for sure - we do need to raise the population for the benefit of all Australians present and future. this, i believe is the fundamental complexity of the immigrant problem/solution. An even bigger irony, one that the educated do have correct (providing they are actually intelligent), is that any argument, facts, examples and theory like the above, can be dissected and disagreed with a counter argument, facts, examples and theory. Yet both perspectives could be seen as correct. My opinion is that it's such a complex problem that it needs a simple solution. A line in the sand - an abitrary point put into policy and law from which to go forward from. The greatest good for the greatest number - yes i know how that sounds to people who allign themselves with either end of the spectrum. I'll suggest the first step in the process. We need to boot that bloody ginger moron out as quick as we can. We dont need to add global laughing stock to our current list of tricky problems. 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subbiesrock Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 What exactly is so funny about my conclusions? Are they surprising to you? Actually, about 1 year of research on my part. Most data and economic outlooks are projected by independent sources such as universities. In my case specifically, the data that I base my conclusions on is gathered and collected by the Lawrence R. Klein Institute at the Universidad Autónoma de Madrid. Immigrant statistics are easily obtained through Eurostat and the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). Any information you'd like on the subject i'd be happy to share. The only pertinent data that the general public usually has knowledge of is the size of immigrant populations and their rate of growth (at best). The most obvious way that people reach conclusions about immigrants is using the information they already know (immigrant population increases) and correlating that information to the current general economic trends. Thus when economies are good.. immigrants are BOOMING (3 to 5 times more immigrants flowing into destination countries) but no one talks about immigration since everyone is doing well. When economies are bad, generally speaking we see abrupt falloffs of immigrant populations even before countries even release quarterly reports on the slowing of economic growth etc. Thus.. immigrants generally realize there are no jobs before the government even knows it. Yet.. once the economy has slowed, heavy attention is placed on immigrant populations even though by the time this has happened, most immigrants waves have already slowed massively. For example, here in spain, Immigration is a huge issue currently, even though, we're receiving 200% less immigrants per day than we were 7 years ago (when immigration wasn't an "issue" in the media and politics). Fair call. In the case of immigrant populations, i would saythat both your sources and your synthesis are sound. But in terms of our second topic, that of conflicting ideologies being imposed by immigrants, the total number is much less important than the message itself. It only takes a very small number of people to radicalize the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seroberts Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 that's pretty dumb seroberts.. I'm somewhat of a gun enthusiast and I think you're dumb.. Give people guns in London.. that will make things better. p.s I'm assuming from your comments that you're just longing for the day that a riot will break loose in texas so you can use that on some people and teach them a real lesson about justice.... Thanks Einstein ....... When your in Texas bring me a [censored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plaifender Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 Fair call. In the case of immigrant populations, i would saythat both your sources and your synthesis are sound. But in terms of our second topic, that of conflicting ideologies being imposed by immigrants, the total number is much less important than the message itself. It only takes a very small number of people to radicalize the rest. Agreed. Opening the can of worms about Islamic extremism is a big can, but yes, I would agree that immigrant populations numbers aren't necessarily representative of the amount of coverage they get in the media or this "Clash of Civilizations" that Samuel Huntington first referred to in 1992. If anyone hasn't read it.. I highly advise looking for Huntington's articles which is the basis for LOTS of academic research and theory in the area of globalization, assimilation of cultures and the multiculturalism and europeanization of the E.U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plaifender Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 Thanks Einstein ....... When your in Texas bring me a [censored] I was in Texas three weeks ago.. What was it that you wanted me to bring you? The forum censored out your word. I'm from Georgia and never carry guns across state borders. Posting a random gun as the solution to this post was neither sensitive nor intelligent. Sorry for my choice of words, but I simply didn't get the joke. Seriously, apologies for any way my words might have offended you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwatch Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 Good read guys. Been enjoying this very civilized debate As an immigrant alien in the USA working under a work visa, it's quite fascinating seeing how things are dealt with from a sort of "outside" perspective. I do say that I would have to disagree with sempire's comment about the three types of immigrants. Being in Los Angeles where illegal immigrants are quite rampant here, I must say I don't think any of them are just here to "take". They come to work. Period. They can make more money working here and send it home to their families in Mexico, Central & South America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sempire Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 Good read guys. Been enjoying this very civilized debate As an immigrant alien in the USA working under a work visa, it's quite fascinating seeing how things are dealt with from a sort of "outside" perspective. I do say that I would have to disagree with sempire's comment about the three types of immigrants. Being in Los Angeles where illegal immigrants are quite rampant here, I must say I don't think any of them are just here to "take". They come to work. Period. They can make more money working here and send it home to their families in Mexico, Central & South America. I think you are right about those illegals from Mexico and South America in the US. they seems to be having a different issue in Europe. The illegals in the US seem to be hard workers and always sending money back home. In Europe it seems like they move somewhere and try to stay true to their homeland. I remember hearing once that most immigrants in Europe that have no intention of assimilating just move into their own community over there and it's gotten so bad that the government doesn't bother with them. I heard there are places in Germany that are just villages filled with immigrants that are off the government radar. They even have their own community funded services and banking that have nothing to do with the government or outside world. I find in Canada it is different. I have know a lot of illegals. Here they come from place like Sri Lanka, work under the table at restaurants as kitchen staff and bus boys.. And the kicker.. They buy used bmws and fake gold rolexes to impress each other and people back home. I was at my shop a few months ago, and this Indian guy called, he just moved to the country a few days ago and was calling to see if the shop owner can find him a BMW for around $1000. When you call back home you tell them you got a BMW and you live downtown... You don't tell them it's a 30 year old BMW and you live with 6 guys in a 1 bedroom apartment in the ghetto.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted August 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 In recent years, indigenous Londoners have been exiting the city in droves due to the decreasing quality of life that accompanied increasing numbers of asylum seekers & those habitually on the dole. The next step, the death knell for any city, is when sections of these takers begin to outnumber their well-intentioned (& willfully ignorant) givers & the takers begin to gain political control. Londoners need only look to Detroit to see what that leads to. About 9 years ago, it was predicted that by 2010, white British-Born people would become an ethnic minority in London, representing the first time in recorded history where an indigenous population (well, as close to indigenous as can be reasonably agreed upon) has become a minority in their own country, without also suffering invasion or war. At the time, anyone who commented upon that prediction was accused of 'being racist', rather than dealing with the issues the prediction represented. It is now 2011, and while I don't have access to the statistics on London's current ethnic melting pot (and too lazy to Google them) from my last trips through the city, I would certainly say that if that prediction is not true already, it certainly will be within five years: London is an extremely cosmopolitan and multi-cultural city. What exactly is so funny about my conclusions? Are they surprising to you? Actually, about 1 year of research on my part. Most data and economic outlooks are projected by independent sources such as universities. In my case specifically, the data that I base my conclusions on is gathered and collected by the Lawrence R. Klein Institute at the Universidad Autónoma de Madrid. Immigrant statistics are easily obtained through Eurostat and the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). Any information you'd like on the subject i'd be happy to share. The only pertinent data that the general public usually has knowledge of is the size of immigrant populations and their rate of growth (at best). The most obvious way that people reach conclusions about immigrants is using the information they already know (immigrant population increases) and correlating that information to the current general economic trends. Thus when economies are good.. immigrants are BOOMING (3 to 5 times more immigrants flowing into destination countries) but no one talks about immigration since everyone is doing well. When economies are bad, generally speaking we see abrupt falloffs of immigrant populations even before countries even release quarterly reports on the slowing of economic growth etc. Thus.. immigrants generally realize there are no jobs before the government even knows it. Yet.. once the economy has slowed, heavy attention is placed on immigrant populations even though by the time this has happened, most immigrants waves have already slowed massively. For example, here in spain, Immigration is a huge issue currently, even though, we're receiving 200% less immigrants per day than we were 7 years ago (when immigration wasn't an "issue" in the media and politics). In addition to the rate of immigrants arriving through the borders, one must also take into account the birth rates amongst immigrant populations. In cultures where large families are common, there is a higher birthrate than other cultures. As I said before, bro, if you were to see the town I now live in, I think you would be surprised at just how many Eastern European immigrants there are, especially compared to the smaller number that was here when I first moved to the area 7 years ago. At one point, there was a lot of Polish immigrants working in town (and they were working, not sponging off the government) but once the economy nosedived 2 years ago, lo and behold, they all left to return to Poland... Now, if that's not a sign of economically-driven migration, I don't know what is Something else which needs to be remembered, is government statistics cannot be trusted as accurate. Within the past few years, the British government has effectively owned up to not knowing precisely how many immigrants came through the borders in a year Something else which is rather disturbing, is reading the weekly Court Register in the paper. While Eastern Europeans don't make up a majority culture in town, they do make up almost half of all the court listings, which to me, just shows a lack of respect for their host country You guys need some of these. Oh to have 2nd Amendment rights Sorry for whole quote, but this excellent post would lose it's context if i edited it, so i bolded the parts i'm referring to... This is the sentiment held by 'born here' Australians. I agree with it. The educated left argue that this is a sentiment only held by the uneducated. But in my own personal experience i know this to be fact. The aggressive irony of those new Australians who come here with nothing... who came here because there was very little to attain in their original country... who came here because of the opportunities that that good Aussie "hard yakka" (working hard) presents... yet expect more entitlements than citizens - is astounding. The thing is, i am also well educated. Does it make me uneducated by default because i personally know successful Filipino business owners who collect the dole (welfare) here but operate their businesses back home? I also personally know two elderly Englishmen who recieve aged welfare payments from both the Australian and UK governments. I personally know an entire family of Chinese who own a 'wildest dreams' mansion here in Aus that sits empty for 9 months of the year but they still manage to rort our system. They collect welfare here yet operate a very successful business out of Hong Kong. I know a person of Greek heritage who escaped a prison sentence here for a pretty nasty crime by fleeing back to greece even though it meant he would have to do National service there (the reason he came to aus in the first place). I know Lebonese australians who portend to hate australia and other Australians (not just white people), yet love their free government payments. I know Malaysian immigrants who won't mingle or even work with non-muslims because of their beliefs. if i thought a little harder about it, i'm sure i could come up with many more example from my own circle of friends just like these examples. It's a land of opportunity alright. We’ve golden soil and wealth for toil but who's toiling it and who's reaping the rewards of that toil? I also know people from just about every heritage on the planet, including those mentioned above who are honest, and love the country and are assimilated perfectly. We are an entire nation of immigrants - just ask someone from any of the 600ish cultures of Australian indigenous. It's complex. The situation here in Aus is quite worriesome. Our future will be highly complex. An ideal solution (that would maintain our very high standard of living and quality of life), while remaining culturally sound (and I mean culturally sound from any perspective) is highly unlikely. One thing is for sure - we do need to raise the population for the benefit of all Australians present and future. this, i believe is the fundamental complexity of the immigrant problem/solution. An even bigger irony, one that the educated do have correct (providing they are actually intelligent), is that any argument, facts, examples and theory like the above, can be dissected and disagreed with a counter argument, facts, examples and theory. Yet both perspectives could be seen as correct. My opinion is that it's such a complex problem that it needs a simple solution. A line in the sand - an abitrary point put into policy and law from which to go forward from. The greatest good for the greatest number - yes i know how that sounds to people who allign themselves with either end of the spectrum. I'll suggest the first step in the process. We need to boot that bloody ginger moron out as quick as we can. We dont need to add global laughing stock to our current list of tricky problems. You've made some very interesting points, and I agree entirely, especially with the section I have boldened. If there is specific policy, then it can then be adhered to Good read guys. Been enjoying this very civilized debate As an immigrant alien in the USA working under a work visa, it's quite fascinating seeing how things are dealt with from a sort of "outside" perspective. I do say that I would have to disagree with sempire's comment about the three types of immigrants. Being in Los Angeles where illegal immigrants are quite rampant here, I must say I don't think any of them are just here to "take". They come to work. Period. They can make more money working here and send it home to their families in Mexico, Central & South America. Likewise, even though this debate was not what I intended when I first posted about the riots, I am extremely gratified to see that people have been able to discuss the issues without any offensiveness or hurt feeling The situation you describe with the LA situation, reminds me of the Polish immigrants (who have now left) as they were working crazy hours then living like peasants so they could send the majority of their money back to Poland, which was a bad thing, as it wasn't pumping that money back into the local economy... I think you are right about those illegals from Mexico and South America in the US. they seems to be having a different issue in Europe. The illegals in the US seem to be hard workers and always sending money back home. In Europe it seems like they move somewhere and try to stay true to their homeland. I remember hearing once that most immigrants in Europe that have no intention of assimilating just move into their own community over there and it's gotten so bad that the government doesn't bother with them. I heard there are places in Germany that are just villages filled with immigrants that are off the government radar. They even have their own community funded services and banking that have nothing to do with the government or outside world. I find in Canada it is different. I have know a lot of illegals. Here they come from place like Sri Lanka, work under the table at restaurants as kitchen staff and bus boys.. And the kicker.. They buy used bmws and fake gold rolexes to impress each other and people back home. I was at my shop a few months ago, and this Indian guy called, he just moved to the country a few days ago and was calling to see if the shop owner can find him a BMW for around $1000. When you call back home you tell them you got a BMW and you live downtown... You don't tell them it's a 30 year old BMW and you live with 6 guys in a 1 bedroom apartment in the ghetto.. Sounds positively :group: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plaifender Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 In addition to the rate of immigrants arriving through the borders, one must also take into account the birth rates amongst immigrant populations. Sorry TeeJay, but if we wanna get technical, the children of immigrants are citizens and unlike many of their parents, often have full rights as any citizen would be. In the film The Godfather, Vito Corleone was an immigrant. His son, Michael (played by Al Pacino) is not remembered or ever thought of in our minds as an "immigrant". What indeed, IS interesting, is the connotation the word "immigrant" has. From a sociological standpoint i think you make a very valid point about immigrant families, but children born to immigrant parents aren't immigrants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbiesrock Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 Sorry TeeJay, but if we wanna get technical, the children of immigrants are citizens and unlike many of their parents, often have full rights as any citizen would be. In the film The Godfather, Vito Corleone was an immigrant. His son, Michael (played by Al Pacino) is not remembered or ever thought of in our minds as an "immigrant". What indeed, IS interesting, is the connotation the word "immigrant" has. From a sociological standpoint i think you make a very valid point about immigrant families, but children born to immigrant parents aren't immigrants. This is an interesting point on both sides. Both arguments are valid. Indeed, the son or daughter born of a migrant in the new country is a citizen, with equal rights to other citizens. The issue however, using The Godfather as an appropriate analogy, is that the children of these immigrants are often brought up by their parents with a heavy emphasis on their own cultures from the 'old country'. In fact, the children are brought up with a belief system that the 'old country' has any number of redeeming qualities but this 'new' country is viewed as a place where 'fortunes can be made' but is culturally less significant or historically important. Coupled with a lack of community integration and such non-sensical ideas borne from the trials, mistakes and regrets of one's parents, it is little wonder to find the most radicalized are often those born in (and with a birthright in) the country they have been so taught to despise. It all comes down to a lack of education, which is prevalent in such communities. I doubt very much that, regardless of the conditions of upbringing, some time at a secular university studying anything at all for a few years with exposure to Western ideals won't change the minds of such people. This is a little off-topic but I think an important point at the root of some of the issues faced with immigration. Back to the issue, there are instances, particularly in less secular communities, where integration into the wider community is not commonplace. I don't mean to keep bringing up religion, but it is salient on this point. One of the greatest mechanisms for division in communities, and one of the greatest hinderances of integration into wider communities, is religion, and as a wider consequence, the lack of cultural diversity it brings. Religion, in combination with a lack of education and open-mindedness, and it is of no surprise to me to hear of some of the horrible events in recent times in Europe by second- and third- generation citizens. The London bombings and the failed attempts spring to mind. And those were very well educated people, suggesting a very insidious force of manipulation at work. Those alleged terrorists, with British educations, frankly owe their home country a debt to be lucky enough to have received such an education. Instead, they plot to blow up their fellow citizens. It is despicable. The very same applies to those who looted and pillaged in London the last week, for similar reasons, both immigrants, citizens of immigrants and everybody else. An earlier point was made about the relationship between economy and immigration. When all is well, noone bats an eyelid. It is only in difficult financial times when the questions are raised. This is predominantly an issue of governmental complacency and the shortsighted nature of single-office political terms, and a fundamental flaw in Western democracy. It's a tough issue to resolve, but it can only happen with a cultural shift. And that takes a long, long time. In the interim, the louts, morons and dickheads pillaging London need to be dealt with and made an example of. Personally I hope each one gets their justice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbiesrock Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 Posting a random gun as the solution to this post was neither sensitive nor intelligent. Sorry for my choice of words, but I simply didn't get the joke. Seriously, apologies for any way my words might have offended you[\b] I think an apology in this instance was neither required nor justified. Seroberts simply made an unintelligent jibe to lighten the mood. He's from Texas, he's allowed Hell, I say some dumb [censored] sometimes, but I would never expect those within earshot to apologize to me for telling me how stupid what I said happened to be. Never apologize for having an opinion Plai, especially with the good ones you've shared so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 I'm a religious man, not deeply in the sense that I pray often or attend church every week, but i do believe in God and more importantly I believe the world would be a far better place if everyone was to focus on the message of peace and goodwill that is the basis of all religions. So anyway today after a long absence my family did in fact attend church, my wife just walked away from her 3rd total car write off accident and felt it was time to give thanks, interestingly the ministers message in today church paper was about these very riots. Although it is probably very wishful thinking that everyone will 'Find God' again to fix society (as the minister hoped) I do agree with his belief that the moral decay behind these riots can be suppressed, for a time, by draconian methods that governments might choose to implement they wont eradicate them. I personally believe that parents need to take more responsibility for what is happening in todays society and teach their children by example, I know when I was younger the kids of my generation had both a strong sense of right from wrong as well as the ability to show respect to others and their possessions. My friends and I din't vandalize nor rob for 3 main reasons (1) The knowledge that it was wrong (2) A healthy respect for law enforcement (3) The shame it would bring upon our family. Of the three I think it was a loss of respect from our parents that we would have dreaded most. It's the same for these gangs bashing defenseless people, my father always told me there was 3 marks of a coward (1) To use a weapon (2) To kick someone who was down (3) To fight as part of a gang. A real man will always fight one on one with his fists only and his aim is to best his opponent not kill him. The unfortunate reality is that many who scream the loudest for their governments to fix these problems are in fact parents of those who are part of the problem. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 Culture, my friends. It all comes down to the morals (or lack thereof) that get passed down from parent to child within a given culture. Cultures that teach The Golden Rule & uphold the rule of law tend to be more successful & less violent than those that lionize rapsterism (the beat that moves gangsterism) & its concomitant criminality. Compare, for example, Israel, which has the largest number of guns per capita of any nation, but 1 of the lowest rates of (peace-time) gun-related crime; to the US, which has far fewer guns per capita, but far more gun-related violence. And, to take it a step further, democracies tend not attack each other, while autocracies & theocracies often do. I had an enlightening conversation today with a gentleman who emigrated to California from Mexico in 1970. He twice referenced 'his country' [Mexico], which immediately struck me as odd for someone who has been living in the US for over 30 years! When I asked him about this, he said he is 'still Mexican'. This stands in stark contrast to the millions of Asian & European immigrants who come to the US primarily to 'be Americans'. And much the same is occurring with many so-called asylum seekers entering the UK & other parts of the EU. Something has definitely changed & it does not bode well for long-term homogeneity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted August 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 Sorry TeeJay, but if we wanna get technical, the children of immigrants are citizens and unlike many of their parents, often have full rights as any citizen would be. In the film The Godfather, Vito Corleone was an immigrant. His son, Michael (played by Al Pacino) is not remembered or ever thought of in our minds as an "immigrant". What indeed, IS interesting, is the connotation the word "immigrant" has. From a sociological standpoint i think you make a very valid point about immigrant families, but children born to immigrant parents aren't immigrants. Sorry for the late reply, bro, I would've responded last night, but I was ordered to turn the computer off for making too much noise SubbiesRock has already said pretty much everything I would have said in response to that clarification, but I will add that it's a relatively moot point if the children of immigrants are citizens or immigrants, simple because they are still part of that Immigrant Community, and due to either non-acceptance by indigenous native-born, or lack of assimilation due to parental/community influences, they can still lack cultural integration, and maintain their own cultural identity. They also still provide statistics/faces on the street to change the ethnic demographic of that host country, which was the point I was raising about the predicted change of demographics in London I'm a religious man, not deeply in the sense that I pray often or attend church every week, but i do believe in God and more importantly I believe the world would be a far better place if everyone was to focus on the message of peace and goodwill that is the basis of all religions. So anyway today after a long absence my family did in fact attend church, my wife just walked away from her 3rd total car write off accident and felt it was time to give thanks, interestingly the ministers message in today church paper was about these very riots. Although it is probably very wishful thinking that everyone will 'Find God' again to fix society (as the minister hoped) I do agree with his belief that the moral decay behind these riots can be suppressed, for a time, by draconian methods that governments might choose to implement they wont eradicate them. I personally believe that parents need to take more responsibility for what is happening in todays society and teach their children by example, I know when I was younger the kids of my generation had both a strong sense of right from wrong as well as the ability to show respect to others and their possessions. My friends and I din't vandalize nor rob for 3 main reasons (1) The knowledge that it was wrong (2) A healthy respect for law enforcement (3) The shame it would bring upon our family. Of the three I think it was a loss of respect from our parents that we would have dreaded most. It's the same for these gangs bashing defenseless people, my father always told me there was 3 marks of a coward (1) To use a weapon (2) To kick someone who was down (3) To fight as part of a gang. A real man will always fight one on one with his fists only and his aim is to best his opponent not kill him. The unfortunate reality is that many who scream the loudest for their governments to fix these problems are in fact parents of those who are part of the problem. Ken Absolutely spot on Culture, my friends. It all comes down to the morals (or lack thereof) that get passed down from parent to child within a given culture. Cultures that teach The Golden Rule & uphold the rule of law tend to be more successful & less violent than those that lionize rapsterism (the beat that moves gangsterism) & its concomitant criminality. Compare, for example, Israel, which has the largest number of guns per capita of any nation, but 1 of the lowest rates of (peace-time) gun-related crime; to the US, which has far fewer guns per capita, but far more gun-related violence. And, to take it a step further, democracies tend not attack each other, while autocracies & theocracies often do. I had an enlightening conversation today with a gentleman who emigrated to California from Mexico in 1970. He twice referenced 'his country' [Mexico], which immediately struck me as odd for someone who has been living in the US for over 30 years! When I asked him about this, he said he is 'still Mexican'. This stands in stark contrast to the millions of Asian & European immigrants who come to the us primarily to 'be Americans'. And much the same is occurring with many so-called asylum seekers entering the UK & other parts of the EU. Something has definitely changed & it does not bode well for long-term homogeneity. :victory: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxman Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 Big time props to this women http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Krvprc0CKqg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbiesrock Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 Big time props to this women http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Krvprc0CKqg A most eloquent expression of precisely what is wrong with the rioters - "dirty f€%king thieves, ya know". How about this for an idea to make a change - instead of stealing shoes and plasma TVs, how about knuckling down, getting an education and getting into the places where these decisions are made and making an ACTUAL difference, if they so believe they are being hard done by... No... This type of effort is beyond the grasp of most of those slack-jaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted August 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 A most eloquent expression of precisely what is wrong with the rioters - "dirty f€%king thieves, ya know". How about this for an idea to make a change - instead of stealing shoes and plasma TVs, how about knuckling down, getting an education and getting into the places where these decisions are made and making an ACTUAL difference, if they so believe they are being hard done by... No... This type of effort is beyond the grasp of most of those slack-jaws. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sempire Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 I think my plan is to move away from these big open 1st world countries, US/Canada/EU.. I think the countries themselves are going to just go downhill. I'm sure if you move to Panama and sell mangos to tourists you'd be much happier than having a house that takes 50 years to pay off, a car that takes 6 years to pay off, having your kids taking 10 years to pay off student loans, and going through life pretending that all that debt you're carrying is an investment.. It was funny to see Walmart cashiers in the US "owning" million dollar houses and driving BMW's to work, only to have it catch up to them in no time.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxman Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 Well said Mayor Nutter,well said Indeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 It was funny to see Walmart cashiers in the US "owning" million dollar houses and driving BMW's to work, only to have it catch up to them in no time.. And then blame everyone (bankers, government, etc) but themselves when the inevitable bill came due. Again, this is a cultural pathology, nothing more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sempire Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 It's funny to see. On CNN they showed this lady that was an illegal Mexican, and she bought this $750,000 house for 0$ down and when she got the first mortgage bill she couldn't pay it and she was upset about it and blamed the bank for letting her buy a house she couldn't afford. Nothing but shits and giggles the whole show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbiesrock Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 Well said Mayor Nutter,well said Indeed Funny how every single point he made could apply directly to the London rioters. Just shows how universal the problem/issue seems to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxman Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 Funny how every single point he made could apply directly to the London rioters. Just shows how universal the problem/issue seems to be. +1000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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