Warning-6497 movement W/O seconds-disaster on your wrist

[RWG Technical]

If you have a handwind PAM with a 6497 and the running seconds removed, please read the following.

BACKGROUND

The 6497 comes from the factory with an extended 2nd wheel post on which the seconds hand is attached. This is a close up picture of that post, it fits through the dial hole, and the hand is secured to it.

If your PAM doesn't have a seconds hand, this post has to be removed so that it doesn't interfere with the dial.

Removal is not a problem, if it's done correctly...

PROBLEM

The removal of the post is not being done correctly, and as a result, your watch is in effect a ticking time bomb...read on to see why...

The posts are either being removed at the factory, or they are being removed by modders - modders who don't know what they are doing.

Here are examples of factory fresh movements with the post removed.

Example 1

On this one they disassembled the movement and removed the 2nd wheel (the way it should be done), but instead of cutting off the post and leaving it long enough to have a proper pivot, they ground down the whole pivot right to the pinion gear, leaving an unfinished and rough pivot, not only is it unfinished, it's sitting in the jewel, not above it.

Here you can see that the cut off section is below the jewel face, it should be above the jewel face

This is a picture of how a pivot should look, nice rounded top, and it sticks above the face of the jewel.

Here I have disassembled the movement and removed the 2nd wheel.

And here is a close up of the 2nd wheel and the cut off post, there is no pivot to rotate in the jewel

This is how a good pivot should look,this is the pivot on the other end of the 2nd wheel.

Example 2

The person at the factory who assembled this watch, was a bit lazier than the first fellow, and he didn't have as much time available as the first one, so instead of removing and grinding off the pivot, he simply bent the post over until it snapped off...with disasterous results for the owner...

The result is a very jagged, sharp edge,as the watch runs, this jagged edge will effectively act as a cutter and grind down the jewel, eventually the 2nd wheel will disengage from the rest of the gears...

What will happen if left as-is and not fixed...

If you own a handwind PAM, you know how many turns are needed of the crown to fully wind it up. You also know how much force is needed to wind that big 48 hour power reserve mainspring.

All the mainspring power is held back by the escapment and of course the train gears. The mainspring can only unwind slowly over 48 hours. If something happens to cause the train gears to disengage, the mainspring will unwind in a milisecond.

WHEN the 2nd wheels in the above examples finally grind down the jewel enough to cause the gear train to disengage, the mainspring will unwind fully and take with it the minute hand and hour hand and everything else...kiss your watch good bye...

Here is an example of this happening, this particular watch had a 3rd wheel failure, but the 2nd wheel failing will do the same damage as you see here.

Not only are the dial and hands destroyed, the force has also stripped and damaged all the gears in the movement.

RESULT

Dial is ruined

Hands are ruined

Movement is destroyed

SOLUTION

1 Don't buy any handwind PAM that doesn't have running seconds, unless you are going to fix it

2 If you do buy one, have it serviced/repaired as soon as you get it

3 If you use the services of a modder to remove your seconds post (FGD dial install for example), make sure it's done correctly - ask for pictures of the workmanship, ask if they own a DREMEL

PROBLEMS

1 There are NO SPARE parts available for ASIAN 6497's, so if you have a A6497 and need a new 2nd wheel, you have to buy a complete movement to get a replacement gear

2 For the ETA movements, replacement parts are available, so repair is not a problem

As you can see from the pictures, it's simple for you to check this out yourself - as long as your comfortable removing the dial and hands...

Modder workmanship

Have to at least mention what I have seen...no names...so far I have identified two distinct types of modders...

Modder 1 - these fellows don't disassemble the movement, they simply cut the post off with cutters, leaving a jagged eged, but it's above the jewel face so that's good, the jewel won't be ground down.

On the downside, the jagged edge is wider that the jewel hole and it won't allow the 2nd wheel to pass through the jewel and be removed, so you can't service the watch.

Modder 2 - these fellows are the POWER tool users...the post is ground off with a grinder, probably a Dremel tool...on the good side these modders are too lazy to actually disassemble the movement, so like Modder 1 they leave a post that is above the jewel face.

On the BAD side, they don't realize that grinding creates metal fillings, of course metal fillings and mechanical gears don't get along.

Clean UP, what's that?? these types don't clean anything, not even their fingerprints, so they leave all the metal fillings everywhere, fillings get into the oil in the jewels, and all over the various parts and pieces, with disasterous results.

So there you have it, something to consider and think about...

Thanks for reading, hopefully this will save someone from disaster.

[dbutlerman]

Thanks for the info! I am sure many will find this very useful...

[PeteM]

Another brilliantly informative thread

Thanks R

Of course you forgot the other type of modder....... The Zigmeister - The one and Only

Underlines my philosphy in getting all my movements serviced when I get them

[valerian]

Very informative, Zigmeister. Thanks so much!

Val.

[krpster]

Yikes! Those are some nasty mods right there. Sample 1 looks like shear lack of understanding or thought. Sample 2 is just down right brutal! I feel for the owners of those pieces. However, I would actually like to see what it looks like when the train does go and the main spring lets loose on those poor hands. Must be something to behold.

[PeteM]

+1

[MAHLER]

Thanks! Very informative as always!

[Ronin]

Thank you so much for posting this.

I am in the process of a 112/176 "rebuild/franken" and will make sure this is done correctly.

[redwatch]

Thanks for the always informative post R!!! I had to install a new 2nd hand pinion in my ETA movement and it was also shocking. The original one was clearly a longer post that was just cut off, but at least it was above the jewel.

[Eton]

Thanks R! Fantastic post and informative as always

[specialvat]

Thanks for posting, has the hand been bent round the stack with the force exerted ?

[dluddy]

Wow, great insight in what would seem as a simple fix to the layman.

Thanks for sharing your experience Zig

[TeeJay]

An awesome read, thanks for taking the time to present it

[RWG Technical]

I would actually like to see what it looks like when the train does go and the main spring lets loose on those poor hands. Must be something to behold.

I don't think you scrolled down far enough...have a look at the last 2 pics...

@specialvat

Yes, the hour hand is spun around the hour wheel post, it's twisted and pointing at the "6", you can see it in the first picture.

[Watchmeister]

Thanks again for an informative post. It all makes sense when you lay it out but otherwise I would have been oblivious (at least until the entire watch was destroyed).

[Utheman]

Bingo! You-the-man, again, R!

[Rolexman]

Wow! Great write up. Never seen any of these modded 6497s but it's good to know what to look for. Thanks.

[TJGladeRaider]

I am confused . . . but what else is new.

I have recently purchased a PAM 360 handwind Asian 6497 that has no seconds hand. Is this the problem you are talking about?

Bill

[hiker01]

I am confused . . . but what else is new.

I have recently purchased a PAM 360 handwind Asian 6497 that has no seconds hand. Is this the problem you are talking about?

Bill

If direct from the factory.....yup!

[blue_sphere]

Bill thats EXACTLY what Rob is talking about!

[omegaunit]

CSI:6497...

Very informative as always, thanks.

[w0lf]

Thanks for the post R! As always very informative

I personally only build closed caseback models and chose ETA original movements and parts for my purposes. I have the luxury of using factory ETA 4th wheel parts without seconds output. It's possible the same will work for low beat HZ clone that's in all H-factory creations. The best part is - it's only GBP3.45 so there's no excuse not to pick up a few. Cousins part # UT64971220.

[deltatahoe]

i wonder if this applies to the newest h factory base pams. in joshua's description for the pam 000N he states:

"movement is generic 2 needle movement, not simply cutting off the subdial needle sprocket of the sub secs movement !!"

@zm -- can you reply whether or not any of the movements you are referencing in your thread come from one of the new h factory pam 000s?

thanks in advance

deltatahoe

[RWG Technical]

These movements are not from Josh.

I have not seen any of the newest of the new H series...so I can't offer any insight.

[deltatahoe]

thanks sir

if you come across one of the new h factory movements, i'd be curious to hear your thoughts

deltatahoe