Akira Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Very interesting stuff and information on there: http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/thread/1361266920/Please+explain+me+why+a+certain+HK+dealer+is+allowed+to+post+his+enhanced+offers+on+VRM-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillycheez Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Interesting indeed. I've heard of suspicions on him a long time ago. He sells stunning pieces for a 20% premium over market. If he's really restoring them... Who is his modder! He's the best I've ever seen and is the Michelangelo of lume jobs. And why hasn't anyone who has sold him a watch come out and say he's modified it? If he's been doing it, someone by now would have caught him with old photos of the same watch to compare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 "And why hasn't anyone who has sold him a watch come out and say he's modified it?" Because these guys stick together like bandits. Most 'in the know' Big Time Dealers will know exactly what is going on behind the scenes but no one will say a word unless one BTD screws over another BTD and then they only tell other BTDs about it. Buyers/outsiders/suckers are on their own...always have been in this game. I knew a few BTDs 20+ years ago when Daytonas, Milgauss, and 1655 were hot. They would do anything to jack up prices even go so far as taking 5 or 6 watches to make one super nice example, then put the rest of them back together in decending order of quality. Then they would sell the 'leftovers' starting with the worst one while the 'cream of the cream' (put together out of the best parts) was always for sale at a very high price making the leftovers look like bargains. Always sell the leftovers starting with the worst one or you might be stuck with it after the better examples are sold. "Do you have any Daytonas for sale?" "Yes, I have two...one is pristine at $25,000 and one is a bit rougher at $19,000." "Do you have any more?" "No, just the two." "I can not afford the one for $25,000 but I will give $17,500 for the other one." "Sold!" The next day he has the pristine watch plus the second worst one for sale. Since then, most of the names have changed but the basics have not. It's funny (to me) that a watch with an extensively laser welded case, artificially aged dial, hands, insert etc (all this being their secret) does not bother these guys at all but a Phong etc cased watch (with full disclosure) drives them crazy...unless they have one for sale with no disclosure unless you spot the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Scope Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 +1 Auto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillycheez Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Well I understand the part swapping... That's a live and well and I thought it was a commonly known practice. The Rolex Vintage market is a scary place if you believe people that say it's "all original". If I ever buy a gen vintage again the only thing that I only care about is that it at least has period correct parts for that specific model. Easier to sell and keeps it's value better. But currently I have no plans on buying vintage again. I realized I am waaay too picky and only a personalized franken build would satisfy my specific tastes in patina. I sold my last gen 5513 cause the dial markers mismatched the hand lume by just a smidgen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panerai153 Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 No doubt that these guys as you labeled the BTD's are in collusion. There is no way that, if these watches had been modded like some of the folks on the VRF are alluding to that it wouldn't have come out. But you have two things working here, the dealers who are "upscaling' their watches, and the guys who are buying. If a "collector" buys a pristine 6538 and pays a big premium for it, but months later gets a little suspicious and is pretty sure that his watch has been enhanced, he isn't going to say a word. First off, if he screams foul, most of the others on the forum aren't going to believe him, and second, as soon as the word gets out that his 45K watch isn't as it seems, the price is going to plummet. So for his own good, he's not going to say anything. Who knows how many other folks are insiders in a deal like this. Everyone on the VRF wants the most pristine, perfect examples for their collection.it is not in their best interest to make a big deal about this, because if the heat gets too bad, the dealers who are supplying these 40+ year old factory fresh watches will simply disappear, or sell regular run of the mill watches like everyone else. What really aggravates me is what these "modders" are doing is exactly what we do here on this forum, making a good watch better. the big difference we are all up front and open about what we do, those guys are all shadow players, and everything they are doing is for financial gain, at the expense of their fellow Rolex collectors. It's absolutely heresy to sell a watch with an aftermarket insert, bracelet, crown or a refinished dial, but it's perfectly all right to laser weld a case to build it back up to original specs, or "touch up" the lume on a dial, as long as you are the right person, and everyone thinks that you are the worlds greatest procurer of Vintage Rolex watches. You want papers with your watch, no problem, i can make a punched paper, sales receipt, find a period box, booklets, etc, get you the whole set for lets say a 4k premium over a comperable watch W/O papers. Pretty good business!! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielv2000 Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 (edited) I've said it before. Those things are exactly why I will never buy a gen vintage. Better buying what I know. Phong + gen parts assembled is fine by me! Edited February 20, 2013 by danielv2000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panerai153 Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 I've said it before. Those things are exactly why I will never buy a gen vintage. Better buying what I know. Phong + gen parts assembled is fine by me! You know the worst part, is now this really introduces a sense of mistrust toward the vintage crowd as a whole, and I know that there are loads of guys on the VRF that are as honest as the day is long, and would never knowingly do anything that even leans toward misrepresentation. the big problem to me is who are the good guys and who are the bad guys? If i had the money today to buy any watch(s) that I wanted, I would be in a real dilemma as to who to turn to to find what I want Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillycheez Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 I've dealt with jacek and his partner multiple times and trust them fully. Even been to their store front in SF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc33 Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Yes Jacek is one of the good ones. I got my 5508 from him. He's honest and straight forward and a pleasure to deal with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielv2000 Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Since everyone is afraid of being sued over there, who is the HK seller? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc33 Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 http://www.nbtimes.co/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 That's a very interesting site, cc33. Check out the MkII DRSD. It has serious problems, yet there it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmj Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 This is an interesting read. Now I am less inclined to buy gen vintage, that is if I ever was in the market for one in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akira Posted February 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Yeah some pretty rough stuff up there. I like how straight forward Phillipe is. All these years I thought...mhm.. Nbtimes really has some nice stuff for sale. Never knew about his "insider" reputation. On the other hand, there is no doubt, a fair amount of excellent sellers on there. Jacek striking me as one of the best. Clear photos, serial, detailed information and all. But I've also dealt with total [censored] up there. Which is easy for them, since on VRF it's frowned upon to call anyone out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtguk Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Wow that site's like a bloody candy store I'm in no position to buy Vintage Gen anything atm but these sort of rumours make me nervous to dip my toe in anyway ! Seems like a closed shop with these guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solkryssare Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 You know a forum is [censored] up when you cant criticise a dealer without the fear of a law suit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonyyammine Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Wow I just learned about laser welding today. I'm not joking. I guess I won't be buying a vintage rolex anytime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 "This is an interesting read. Now I am less inclined to buy gen vintage, that is if I ever was in the market for one in the future." Staying away from vintage rolex is pretty good advice in today's market...Frankensteins, welder jobs, fake parts (cases, bezels, dials etc claimed to be genuine), insane prices, and no parts for many models. The downside to the watches we put together is that after they leave our hands, they may show up for sale as 'all genuine' and someone who can not tell the difference (the vast majority of buyers) will pay the genuine price. Otoh, as time goes by, many more 'genuine' watches will become Frankensteins because of lack of parts. In 25 or 35 years they will probably end up all mixed together anyway (if they are still popular) and the burden of genuine vs replica will be 100% on the buyer because by then all the sellers will have 'clammed up' to protect their investment. "You know a forum is [censored] up when you cant criticise a dealer without the fear of a law suit." What's funny is the guy who has the lawsuit against VRF now was busted for all kinds of small time crimes after the VRF forum members busted him on the forum for making fake punched papers. Evidently the guy was a real crook and now he is going after the 'good guys'. Looks like they screwed with an 'outsider' who was not really a 'VRFer'...a VRF***er maybe. VRF guys sure stick together though...as long as you lick your wounds in private. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 nbtimes is an interesting example. Years ago, I suspected something was up with him because he always came to VRF with absolutely pristine examples of rare watches. Often, appearing with 3 or 4 new pristine rarities in the space of 3-4 days (1 new rarity/day). While not impossible, this was happening, it seemed to me, far too often to be kosher. So I posted a question on VRF about a couple of nbtimes' watches & got blasted by virtually the entire senior membership & then had my account deleted. So much for a free exchange of ideas. Then, a couple years later, I believe it was Philipp, 1 of the more salient regulars there, posted virtually the same questions I had, but it sparked an open debate instead of the lambasting I got. But, now, many are questioning nbtimes' & others who seem to have more luck in the hunt than seems realistic. Some years ago, it was heresay to speak openly about changing a dial or replacing any other component of a Rolex with a part or version of a part that the model was not originally fitted with. I cannot tell you how many times questions would be posted (often by what were clearly RWG members) asking where to source replacement dials, rotors, inserts, bridges, etc in an obvious effort to modify/upgrade a Rolex watch. These threads nearly always went unanswered or were deleted by the moderators. However, sometime within the past year or so, this line-in-the-sand seems to have been erased, as it is now commonplace for lengthy threads discussing how much better a Daydate looks with its 'new' Stella dial, or a Sub has been improved with its newly sourced 'chocolate' dial or sun-'bleached' insert, or how thankful a 1680 owner is for the assistance he received in sourcing the red dial that now makes his watch. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillycheez Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 It would be hypocritical for them to be against part swapping when RSC does it all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc33 Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 nbtimes is an interesting example. Years ago, I suspected something was up with him because he always came to VRF with absolutely pristine examples of rare watches. Often, appearing with 3 or 4 new pristine rarities in the space of 3-4 days (1 new rarity/day). While not impossible, this was happening, it seemed to me, far too often to be kosher. So I posted a question on VRF about a couple of nbtimes' watches & got blasted by virtually the entire senior membership & then had my account deleted. So much for a free exchange of ideas. Then, a couple years later, I believe it was Philipp, 1 of the more salient regulars there, posted virtually the same questions I had, but it sparked an open debate instead of the lambasting I got. But, now, many are questioning nbtimes' & others who seem to have more luck in the hunt than seems realistic. Some years ago, it was heresay to speak openly about changing a dial or replacing any other component of a Rolex with a part or version of a part that the model was not originally fitted with. I cannot tell you how many times questions would be posted (often by what were clearly RWG members) asking where to source replacement dials, rotors, inserts, bridges, etc in an obvious effort to modify/upgrade a Rolex watch. These threads nearly always went unanswered or were deleted by the moderators. However, sometime within the past year or so, this line-in-the-sand seems to have been erased, as it is now commonplace for lengthy threads discussing how much better a Daydate looks with its 'new' Stella dial, or a Sub has been improved with its newly sourced 'chocolate' dial or sun-'bleached' insert, or how thankful a 1680 owner is for the assistance he received in sourcing the red dial that now makes his watch. Wow Freddy, I had no idea that that's the reason you were booted.. What a bunch of cowards. I think that his stuff looks very fishy which is why I would buy from a dealer like Jacek or any number of other dealers selling honest stuff but not him. His unpolished cases are such a farse, the bands on every single one of them look like they just came out of a package, not even rub marks from where the end links touch and rub on the end of the band.. That tells me that he has someone refinishing the bands and the same person is re-bevelling the case and refinishing both the polished and matt surfaces. The finish is too perfect on both his bands and cases, I have no doubt that he did not recieve them in that condition, impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panerai153 Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 It's gonna get interesting!!! Yesterday a watch lover that's high up in a big professional Radiology group offered the use of their equipment to Xray watches that were bought from the Hong Kong Source. Ogf course if the watch was sold say 2-3 years ago, the seller could always say that the present owner had the watch laser welded, but if they fiind a few, I believe that it's going to come down hard on the seller. Complete loss of trust among the collecting crowd. Pretty hard to sell this type of high end vintage watches if others in the community don't vouch for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc33 Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 I just looked at his current inventory and it seems like it's 50/50. He seems to have watches that have obv been refinished and ones that have not. You can't have a case that is claimed to be untouched or unpolished and have a dial with heavy patina it's a blatant contradiction. I'm very curious to see what comes of this as well. I can't believe they are going to X-ray them, how exciting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Any level of lying or hypocrisy is distasteful to me. But when you see it institutionalised like this it's just revolting. Absolutely disgusting. They have completely forfeited any moral right to look down their nose at Rep enthusiasts. At least we and homage makers are honest about our hobby. Dishonesty followed by threats of lawsuit when doubts are voiced is beneath contempt. There are a few I know over there, and it warms my heart to see them airing the dirty laundry. They'd be welcome over here as honored guests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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