Vintage Sub questions

[6now]

Hi. I'm planning to build a vintage sub and I just have a few questions that some of you may know:

 

1. I know that a gen 1570 movement runs counter clockwise in winding the hands. How about the date: does it turn clockwise or counter clockwise?

2. Would a 1570 fit an MBW case? If not, what would I need in order to use both?

3. Does the serial numbering on an mbw case run in sequence like the TC or is it a fixed (same) serial numbering all through out production?

4. Has anyone successfully changed the 'Polex' engraving into 'Rolex'?

 

Thanks for your help as these are seldom discussed recently for one to search.

 

 

[freddy333]

1. 1575 datewheel

 

2. 1575 in old MBW mid-case (may require some grinding of case interior, where/how much depends on your particular case)

 

3. As far as I know, serial numbers are fixed on MBWs.

4. Easy, if you have access to an engraver.

[automatico]

"How about the date: does it turn clockwise or counter clockwise?"

CCW

"Would a 1570 fit an MBW case? If not, what would I need in order to use both?"

Some say yes, some say no.

I tried it and a 1570/75 date movement with genuine 1680 dial will fit into my 1680 case but the back side of the dial window in the case needs to be machined flat where it has a step in it. The movement is a little but loose in the case (side to side) and hopefully the standard case screws would hold it tight enough that it does not move around when screwing the crown in, setting time etc. If the movement slides back and forth in the case it will scuff paint off the dial.

A 1520 no date movement with 5513 dial would not work in my unaltered MBW/MBK 5513 or 1680 cases because the stem is too far to the front of the case tube.

MBK/MBW 5513 and 1680 cases are exactly the same...at least the two I have are.

"Does the serial numbering on an mbw case run in sequence like the TC or is it a fixed (same) serial numbering all through out production?"

Do not know. My 5513 is L342386 and the 1680 is L342301.

"Has anyone successfully changed the 'Polex' engraving into 'Rolex'?"

My guess is anyone with an engraving machine and a selection of font dies could do it. If you are brave, use a straight edge and carbide scribe.

My advice is not to waste $$ on a genuine rolex movement and go with an Eta 2846. If you already have the movement, it's not as bad...$$ etc.

Genuine spec 5513 dials are 26.0mm, 1680 dials are 26.5mm iirc.

edit:

Freddy is right in that it seems all MBW/MBK cases are not the same over the years. The 5513 came from Freddy (unknown age of case) and the 1680 from Reg (about 2 years ago). I have one other 1680 Reg case with serial number L342043...just found it. It looks like the date windows are too far to the right on both MBW/MBK 1680 watches.

http://www.rwgforum.net/topic/155754-old-school-mbw-1680-build-ingod-dial-issues/

http://www.rwgforum.net/topic/157857-follow-on-mbw-1680-ingod-dial-build/

[6now]

Thanks freddy and automatico.

 

It seems Rolex pairs the movement of the hands with the date wheel: 3135 both clockwise, 3035 both counter clockwise; and this 1570 both counter clockwise too. I don't know of any ETA who has copied those.

 

As I see, most of the Mbw lug serial numbers date them to the late 80's which would contradict my idea build of early 70's when I was born. I guess Yuki is my more affordable only option.

[freddy333]

Unless you plan to wear the watch on a strap, I would not worry too much about the serial number since it will be hidden beneath the end links.

[automatico]

Something else...

If you use a 5513 case with 26mm+/- dial window opening and a genuine spec 26mm dial, you might run into trouble with the dial staying on the movement. I have a 1520 with a Yuki genspec dial in a DW 5513 case with a dial window opening of 25.95mm and dial is 26.0mm +/- a tenth mm or so. The only thing really holding the dial in place are the dial screws. The movement mounts solid against the inside of the case but the dial does not solidly touch the back side of the dial seat/reflector (aka rehaut). You can see a slight space between the dial and dial seat with a loupe and bright light.

 

If you use a genspec Yuki etc dial made for a genuine 1530 base rolex movement on an Eta, the dial feet will have to be removed so there may not be a reliable method of holding the dial solidly in place using a DW case. You might get by if the movement is centered and solidly mounted so it will not move at all. A genspec 1680 dial being .5mm or so bigger od should work better.

There was a post a year or so back that showed a genuine 5512 case along with the dial opening measurements. It showed the dial window opening to be 26.0mm and the 5513 case is supposedly the same size (?).

It has been so long since I worked on a genuine 5513 that I do not remember how much 'purchase' the dial had inside the case so maybe someone with genuine 5513 and 1680 cases can give the dial window measurements.

 

Here are the dial window measurements etc of the cases I have:

MBW/MBK 5513...25.45mm dial window opening, case neck od where crystal mounts...28.2mm

MBW/MBK 1680...25.45mm dial window opening, case neck od where crystal mounts...28.2mm

Both mid cases are 4.95mm thick and both have grooves cut in the top of the case for a gasket under the crystal retaining ring. The cases are identical except for letters and numbers. They are very well made and finished.

 

DW 5513...25.95mm dial window opening, 5.2mm thick, 28.05mm case neck od

DW 1680...26.0mm dial window opening, 5.6mm thick, 28.05 case neck od

No groove for gasket on top of the case. Very well made and finished.

 

IG44 1680 case...25.9mm dial window opening, 4.9mm thick, 28.15 case neck od

No groove for gasket on top of the case. Very well made and finished except for the 'canoe' shaped lugs.

 

All interior and exterior lettering/numbering is only fair. The MBW/MBK numbers are the worst of all between the lugs.

Only the IG44 case is drilled for genspec springbars, the MBW/MBK cases are drilled a hair too small, and the DW cases are way too small.

 

Here is the kicker...

The fit and finish of the $135 DW case is just as good as the $300 to $500 MBW/MBK and $500+ IG44 cases. But there's a catch...

Pot bellied case sides.

Out of spec case neck (and dial window?).

Shallow gasket groove in caseback.

Will not accept oem spec case tube to case gasket.

DW is mia.

[highoeyazmuhudee]

i wouldnt worry about changing the engraving from polex to rolex, even if you did the engravings still look terrible nothing like gen

[6now]

With so much modding on mbw using gen dials, I may get back to Yuki cases using yuki dials and go gen movement and other parts. I plan to occasionally use a nato so the engraving is something I can't ignore. Simply put, my initial small budget is not feasible.

 

Thanks guys for the technical help. Invaluable vintage knowledge, as always, from you guys.

[wiesn089]

Why not spend a little more and go with a Phong case? To me Yuki has always been the least attractive offering. His cases lack Phong's quality and cost substantially more than MBWs. With a little negotiating you should be able to get a Phong case for under $1000 even less if you don't buy the complete case set...

[panerai153]

Why not spend a little more and go with a Phong case? To me Yuki has always been the least attractive offering. His cases lack Phong's quality and cost substantially more than MBWs. With a little negotiating you should be able to get a Phong case for under $1000 even less if you don't buy the complete case set...

I agree, if you are going to do a really good 1680 build, I would spring for the phong case, a gen or gen spec dial and  the 1575 movement. Now you really have something!!

 

I have a old MBW cased 1680 with a gen dial and a 2846 movement. First problem, the old MBW cases were 5513 cases which used a smaller dial, the cases are even marked 5513, plus the "polex design", so when you try to use a gen dial the dial either has to be cut, or the dial shelf below the rehaut has to be opened up a little. Either way, you are going to have less dial showing which decreases the realism, although it would never be visible to anyone except a Rolex expert here, and old school Rolex watchmaker, and a few WIS on other forums. The second problem is the ETA (2846) Date Window  is positioned slightly different from a gen dial, so if you use a 2846 movement and a gen dial, you need to use a DW overlay. The biggest problem with the overlays is getting all the numbers to appear centered in the Date window. I had a heck of a time with mine, and we finally got them pretty well centered, but some of the numbers in the 20's are a tiny bit left justified, again  no big problem, but if you are as anal as most of us are it will always be noticeable to you. If you use a genuine dial and a 1575 movement, you will not have any of those problems, provided you use a gen spec 1680 case.

 

Don't get me wrong, there have been some outstanding 1680 builds on the forum over the years, mainly using the old MBW case, ETA 2846 movements and gen or gen spec dials. Crowns/tubes, Inserts, Bezels and crystals. It's just that getting it built and done correctly takes way more than just putting the parts together like you would if it was a genuine 1680 that was disassembled.

 

The watch of  Freddy's is a 1665 SD, which is a different case, I have one very similar to Freddy's, both of ours have gen movements DW's and gen spec dials.Once you get the movement  fitted in the case, everything else fits up pretty nicely, mainly because it's all Rolex and it's made to fit together perfectly. Problems come in when you start to change out parts,such as dials, DW's movements, etc. that were not designed for that particular watch. just because it looks like it's going to fit, doesn't mean it will. Tolerances in watch builds are very tight, and it doesn't take much to make something not fit.   

 

Here is mine. as you can see the dial is bigger than the opening, as the minute markers extend under the edge of the rehaut. It's not very noticeable, but I know it's there. Unfortunately, that was the only way to get a gen dial in the MBW case. too bad we can't shrink dials to fit!!!

 

   

 

[6now]

Thanks weisn and panerai for the inputs. The further jump in price from Yuki's $500+ to Phongs $1,000+ is a bit of a stretch from my original MBW budget, hahaha. But most definitely Phong is the ideal (lest a gen case).

 

By the further explanation, it seems that building a 5513 is much easier than 1680 given that MBW's are engraved 5513s and lack of a date window. But the T127 top hat on 1680s is a striking killer look for me that I can't put on a 5513 that uses T19. I'm also having a hard time sourcing a 1520 at the moment. Is it correct to put a 1570 on a 5513? If so, from what year? I think I remember 5513 still uses 1520 by early 70's. Correct me 'tho if not accurate.   

[alligoat]

A 5513 would have originally had a 1530 movement in the early 60s when it debuted.

Around 1965 that changed to a 1520 and that was used until the watch was retired around 1989 or so.

Watches like an Air King 5500 also had a 1520 movement.

A Rolex 1002 which is a 'Superlative Chronometer, Officially Certified' or SCOC, would have a 1570 movement. This movement would be appropriate for a 5512 after 1965 or so.

 

Your first order of business is to decide which watch you want to build- 5513 or a 1680. If you're on a budget, you should look at the offerings of Puretime and Josh which can be found with a 2846-2 movement- these are nice vintage reps that you can do some mods to and end up with a very nice watch- one that is dependable and even WR, at a reasonable cost.

 

The frankens that I've built with a gen Rolex movement have all run over $2500. It might be possible to build a 5513 for $2K, but these are not for the feint of heart- they're somewhat expensive and realize that you'll most likely never get your money out of a franken like this, so you have to be committed.

 

Also, an MBW 5513 is a nice watch which runs in the $400 range to start and if you do the mods yourself, you can end up with a fine rep maybe in the $750 range with some gen parts and the 2846-2 movement- these are a good deal in my mind. I'm just not a proponent of putting a gen Rolex movement in a watch unless your committed to going the distance.

[ghost]

I agree with alligoat. If you're going to be throwing 4 grand in, you're better off just saving a bit more money and buying the gen. 

 

I've 2 5513s which were under 1 grand a piece. But the dials certainly weren't of the matte variety. It'd be criminal to cut the feet off a matte dial

[fitch]

 It'd be criminal to cut the feet off a matte dial

 

agreed

[automatico]

"A Rolex 1002 which is a 'Superlative Chronometer, Officially Certified' or SCOC, would have a 1570 movement. This movement would be appropriate for a 5512 after 1965 or so."

 

The 1002 is a strange duck...they can be found as 'Air King Precision' (no scoc), 'Oyster Perpetual' (with scoc), and Explorer (with scoc) depending on when they were made and the market they were made for. My 'official' relax parts book shows the 1002 to come with a 1560 or 1570 but mine from I-64 came with a 1530 with serial numbers.

 

Frankensteins with rolex movements are a different ballgame for sure. Besides the initial $$ outlay there may be the need for expensive $ervice and part$ now or later.

A 5513 with a rolex movement should be cheaper than a 1680 because a 1520 usually goes for less than a 1570/75. A 1570 is Ok in a 5513 F-stein imho because it is not a genuine watch anyway and the 1570 could be thought of as an 'upgrade'. Try to get a no date 1570 for use in a 5512/13 project or the canon pinion and hour wheel will be too tall after removing the date works and calendar spacer. The sweep second pinions are all the same because the difference is in the length of the sweep second hand tube. You can always go with a 5512 dial on a 1570 and make a 'McQueen' submariner.

 

If you opt for an Eta 2846 in a high $$ case, a 5512/13 is a lot easier because you dodge all the problems with date window magnifiers, date wheel overlays etc.

Maybe buy a ready made 5513 or 1680 like Puretime and Josh offer like alligoat said and wear it while taking your time to build a first class Frankenstein.

A nice case and 1520 or 1570 might come up for sale at any time.

[wiesn089]

I agree that building gen powered frankens only really make sense for high dollar watches like double reds, Comex and the like these days. Gen parts like dials, bezels, inserts or bracelets are just too expensive to justify low end reference frankens over gens imo.

[panerai153]

I agree that building gen powered frankens only really make sense for high dollar watches like double reds, Comex and the like these days. Gen parts like dials, bezels, inserts or bracelets are just too expensive to justify low end reference frankens over gens imo.

You are absolutely correct. that's the reason my 1680 never progressed to the gen movement category. if you add another 1000-1200 USD for the movement and then find out it needs a 250-500 USD service, you are into some serious cash pretty quick. It's really easy with genuine vintage Rolex prices in the Stratosphere, to end up with a 3500.00 USD franken 1680. Add up a phong case, gen bezel/insert, dial, movement, hands, crown/tube bracelet and endlinks and see what you come up with. I guarantee you are going to be in striking distance of a genuine 1680.

As alligoat said as well, you will probably never get your money out of one of these frankens. Best chance is a teardown and sell all the genuine parts on genuine watch forums. The market for high dollar frankens is pretty rarified. there are tons of folks who would LIKE to have your watch, darn few that  can/will shell out the cash to buy it.