Puretime- Angus

[Planky]

Good morning gents.

 

Has anyone heard from Angus? Is he ok, I'm concerned, in my experience he normally contact back in 3-5 days. He has been quiet for weeks. I currently have a AP Forged Carbon paid and I'm waiting to here. I've seen other threads that people have received orders. Can you please verify for me? Order status was changed to paid on 2/11/2014. Hope nothing has happened to him.

 

   

[EW1213]

Good morning gents.

 

Has anyone heard from Angus? Is he ok, I'm concerned, in my experience he normally contact back in 3-5 days. He has been quiet for weeks. I currently have a AP Forged Carbon paid and I'm waiting to here. I've seen other threads that people have received orders. Can you please verify for me? Order status was changed to paid on 2/11/2014. Hope nothing has happened to him.

 

   

 

Hi,i hope nothing happened to him too...

Because i have emailed him since jan,but to no avail...

Learnt that he resumed work on 18/02/2014,but i emailed him yesterday again,but still no answer from him...

Just hope he has enjoyed his holidays & get back to work soon...

Angus a reputable dealer here,shldnt be any issues on your delivery,no worries ya...Cheers!

[Mike on a bike]

If he returned two days ago sure he has a ton of emails to answer and no offense but ordering around CNY is not a good idea at all .

[markiemark]

Here's what Angus wrote on RG, worth reading imo...

 

Hi Everyone,

 

I am going to be frank in this open letter, and I apologize if this message ruffles some feathers, but for me this is necessary, sadly.

 

I am writing this to all of you rather than the specific people involved so that it hopefully becomes a group mindset and prevents the regular offenders from doing it again, or any new guys from doing it.

 

The issue I want to raise is aggressiveness, antagonism, negative speculation and all negative emotion that some members so easily raise on the subject of this hobby, in particular with the new releases sometimes not meeting expectations.

 

I want to be very clear on this point… I AM A WATCH DEALER. I AM NOT A WATCH MAKER. Yes, I SOMETIMES help the Makers with their watches, I always try to do my best with this task. I help ZF a lot recently, as an example, but this means that if a watch does not meet expectations, this is not my fault. I have faith in some Makers (like Noob, ZF, V6, etc., etc.) and if they tell me something is being released, I trust them to deliver a great product, and therefore promote their product before release, because their track record shows that they can be trusted.

 

An important point to raise is that sometimes it is not even the Maker’s mistake when something bad happens, it is the parts factories. When the Maker confirms a part with the part factory, the factory then does mass production, like 1000-2000 pieces, and sometimes the factory delivers something different than what was accepted during prototype phase, so even if the factory is willing to remake the piece to perfection, it will take a fair amount of time and the Maker does not want to wait for just 1 or even a few parts to be perfect before assembling the piece and selling it. The Maker will fix the parts on the next run, the V2s, V3s, etc., etc. Some people tell me to tell the Maker not to sell watches like this, however what needs to be realized is that we are only about 20% of the Makers sales, we are not influential enough to demand this from the Maker. Once we are, then the Maker will listen to us.

 

It seems to me that some people think I am a hype man for certain Makers, and this is completely not true. I give news on watches being released because that is what is expected of me. No other TD does it as regularly as me, and I am clearly known on the forums as the most active dealer, consistently speaking and informing you guys.

 

Here is the important point… YOU CANNOT HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT. Either understand that I am doing my duty to you guys by informing you of things, giving the news that you guys ask for, and that I have no control (most of the time) as to what the Maker’s final product will look like, and that I only keep you guys informed because YOU ASK FOR IT, and therefore I DO NOT want to be met with antagonism, aggressiveness or any other negative emotion, or I will simply stop keeping the forums informed of pre-releases, I won’t offer any pre-sales, I won’t give any information, to anyone, of any new watches expected to be released, and I will just go to being like every other TD on here.. I can swear to all of you that this would actually make my life 10x easier, and I will not lose more than 1% of my sales. Really, I do presales, keep you guys informed, because it is what you want, NOT what I want.

 

This is your choice, and it is the forum member’s responsibility to either stop being negative, or to all the positive forum members, it is your responsibility to put the negative people in their place.

 

To be honest I have not been active on the forums since CNY because of all the negativity surrounding SubC V3 and Diver V5.1. It is not nice to read all these negative comments (towards me and the watches) wild speculation, silly theories, and so on and so forth. I work 18 hours a day on average to get the watches made that you want made. I answer my PMs lightning fast, I run a business with 20+ employees, I do my best for this business, for your hobby, and I do not need any extra worries on my plate, I have enough of them as it is.

 

If you have a problem with a watch, that’s fine, state your issue, but be careful as to what you say, how you say it and whom you direct your anger towards. Stuff like “OMG, this watch is TERRIBLE, I can’t believe Noob and Angus would release such a piece of crap!” IS NOT OK IN MY BOOK, and I won’t tolerate it anymore. Comments like this turn my hobby (yes, watches are MY hobby also) into my enemy.

 

I apologize for this letter, I don’t like writing these kinds of letters, but for me it had to be done. From now on, we can move on and continue as normal, but as I said, this is now in your hands, because if there is more of the same old negativity, then I am sorry, but as mentioned, I will just stop posting pre-releases on the forums. Your choice, guys.

 

Cheers,

 

A

 

[Planky]

Well good, he is OK. That's the most important thing. The watch will come.

[Uberscreamer]

Wow, I knew that people could be cranky A##holes, but I had no idea that Angus was apparently being hammered with such negative responses from so many of them on these releases.  Angus does a heck of a good job keeping us up to date on these reps, and quite a few of these would not even be brought to our attention without his hard work.  People need to be realistic about this hobby of ours and stop bothering him with all of their petty complaints.  No one forced them to pre-order anything, that's for sure.

 

Don't be discouraged, Angus.  We at RWG love what you do!

[Legend]

I agree completely with what Angus said. Yes.

But the only thing which I've highlighted, is the lack of communication or reply regardless of whether it's a pre order or not. It's perfectly understandable for delays and hiccups to occur. Nobody should fault the dealer on that. But no communication or selective communication is not good in my opinion.

I think most of us can accept being told that problem x or y or z is happening and we have to hang on longer for delivery. Perfectly ok.

But not communicating about it is not cool. It keeps people guessing and guessworks vary from one individual to another. Not all of them would be positive trust me.

I've said this before and I say it again: puretime offers great watches, yes. Angus has a hand in bringing to production what people want, yes again. But their communications needs a lot of improvement from my experience.

Sent from Mars using tapatalk

[Planky]

Wow, I knew that people could be cranky A##holes, but I had no idea that Angus was apparently being hammered with such negative responses from so many of them on these releases.  Angus does a heck of a good job keeping us up to date on these reps, and quite a few of these would not even be brought to our attention without his hard work.  People need to be realistic about this hobby of ours and stop bothering him with all of their petty complaints.  No one forced them to pre-order anything, that's for sure.

 

Don't be discouraged, Angus.  We at RWG love what you do!

Apparently you failed to read the thread.

[importr]

All I'm gonna say is:

This is just a hobby.

Some people take it far too seriously.

Your life can go on without reps!

[fraggle42]

If you don't believe there are that many cranky ar**h*les, read the Tudor BB thread.

 

Absolutely minute flaws, complaints about the lume colours that I had to use photo software to sample the colours and create blocks of them side by side to see the tiny difference, just stupid nit picking for the price of the watch.

 

Happily the number of real flaws (dead / dyimg movements, hands come loose, markers come loose) are minimal, I think I've heard maybe 7 out of 400 delivered from the pre-release orders. Dunno how that compares to other mark 1 fresh releases, but it doesn't seem too bad to me.

[archierocks]

i think are expecting the same level of service you would expect in an AD sometimes 

 

you're not really buying a rolex you're buying a cheap all be it well made illegal copy and have to work with suppliers and factories to make them better. But to be honest  most dealers care about as do most sellers is the money any fake customer loyalty is just nonsense if you ask me . Look at the prices increasing etc for v1 v2 v3 best 1.1 its all just to create hype sometimes experienced buyers but mostly  newbies buy in to it and then feel let down or cheated etc.

 

 

take it for what  it is its a $300 copy of a $3000 watch deal with the flaws or don't buy it  

 

just my opionon

[lukenorris2011]

All I'm gonna say is:

This is just a hobby.

Some people take it far too seriously.

Your life can go on without reps!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[panerai153]

I agree communication is essential. how much, who knows? Some folks wouldn't be happy if the dealer gave daily updates, most folks would just like  regular updates weekly, biweekly, etc. Often times the dealers don't update, because their isn't anything new to announce. in that case, if it's been a couple of weeks, just a simple, "Guys, still working on the problems, hope to have something new to report in another week or two." that keeps most folks happy as they feel like they are in the loop.

 

A couple of years ago, I was involved in a limited edition genuine build. I didn't get in on the first run, or the second, I was in the third edition of the watch. My wait was almost 2 years, some folks were over 3. that's after putting a 50% deposit down. Biggest problem with that deal, communication! Quite a few folks backed out and got a full refund, because they couldn't stand the wait (instant gratification, NOT!!) and some couldn't stand the long periods of silence with no updates. Those who waited were rewarded with a beautiful watch that now sells used for almost twice what folks paid when new. I have dealt with another boutique watchmaker who told me that he would absolutely never do a preorder again, after his first, and it went off a lot faster and smoother than the one above. He told me that he would design watches with forum members input, but no preorders, and no hard and fast delivery date. "When I get 'em, you get 'em", was his way of doing business. Works out better for him, and it certainly cuts down on the angst among the waiting deposit holders.

 

AFA The letter Angus wrote. I think that he should be admired for doing what he does, but honestly, when you accept preorders, and post photos of incomplete watches and prototypes on your website, all you are doing is opening yourself up for criticism. People are going to compare, and they are going to complain, that's human nature. and when they see watches with obvious flaws, they are going to express their opinion, whether the dealer likes it or not. I realize that these are watches that cost a fraction of what the genuine counterpart costs, but when you are pricing reps up in the range of 800.00 USD, I believe that the buyer should expect a higher level of workmanship, accuracy and attention to detail , as opposed to a 300.00 USD rep. What he needs to understand is the fact that his reps that are selling for 600-800 USD are competing directly with some pretty nice genuine watches that come with real QC, real warranties, real water resistance, and real dealer and factory support.

 

I very seldom buy watches directly from dealers, Probably 95+% of my reps watches have come from M2M sales. So maybe I'm speaking out of turn here, as I don't have a "skin in the game", but if a dealer is dismayed by the reaction of buyers who preorder and then don't like the lack of communication, be it real or perceived, and folks who criticize the watches, mainly because they are prototypes and or incomplete., then it would seem to me that the simple and easy solution to that problem is to get out of the preorder business, and refrain from posting watches on your sales site until they are finished and stock is on hand or quickly obtainable from the factory. Certainly acceptable to announce that "we are going to be introducing a V5.1 AP Diver sometimes in the near future, not sure when, but when it's ready and available, we will have it here first".

[Uberscreamer]

Apparently you failed to read the thread.

 

 

How do you mean, Planky?  My response was in direct reply to the thread that was posted above, from RG.  I was referring to the incessant complainers as the cranky a##holes, not Angus, if that is how you interpreted my words.  I heard that people were complaining a tiny bit about the slight color differential between the hands and markers, and about the iffy design to the lume pip, but had no idea that it was such sever criticism.  I have not read the BB thread too far down, just looked at the thread while it was still being developed, not after the watch was released.  I guess I should have kept up with it, my bad.

 

I too agree that communication needs to be offered regardless of the level of criticism, because that just leads the people that support the new models and future models to speculate that Angus is slacking and taking advantage of their patronage.  The haters are going to keep on hating (to paraphrase something the kids say nowadays) and a lot will not be happy even with consistent communication.   There are unfortunately a large number of overzealous watch fans that seem to forget that they are not purchasing these copies of expensive watches from legitimate Store fronts, and even though the quality has gone up, they are still hard to please.  I wish that these people would stick to buying Gens if they are going to put up such a fuss and ruin the hobby for the likes of us that accept it for what it is:  a way to buy all of the expensive watches that we want to wear for the price of one or two legit mid-luxury Gens.

[Nightwatch]

Agree with everything said and have never complained about a 128 or 248 usd faulty rep BUT as prices are getting out of hand for simple Asian ETA movements (318/368 usd over 400 with shipping) more criticism and the need/claim for more quality assembly has to be allowed for.

 

Just my take: When You get to the 330 usd to 400 usd range just look/compare what Samsung and Acer are offering for quality, completely operational and well assembled notebooks. Well-packaged, instruction manual, extras. The screens don´t flicker, no buttons are coming off, nothing is loose and if it should be faulty (first 14 days) You get it immediately exchanged for a brand new one. Still they go for just 330 USD and work for years.

[Cromag]

Just my take: When You get to the 330 usd to 400 usd range just look/compare what Samsung and Acer are offering for quality, completely operational and well assembled notebooks. Well-packaged, instruction manual, extras. The screens don´t flicker, no buttons are coming off, nothing is loose and if it should be faulty (first 14 days) You get it immediately exchanged for a brand new one. Still they go for just 330 USD and work for years.

This is not a useful comparison as those products are legal, legitimate products made by world class companies with high level engineering processes. Reps are made under totally different circumstances in every respect and buying or selling them is illegal. Can we come up with a better analogy to make a more useful comparison for a cheaper inferior discretionary product sold in an underground market?

[mosyzlak]

This is not a useful comparison as those products are legal, legitimate products made by world class companies with high level engineering processes. Reps are made under totally different circumstances in every respect and buying or selling them is illegal. Can we come up with a better analogy to make a more useful comparison for a cheaper inferior discretionary product sold in an underground market?

+1 to Cromag. The knock-off wristwatch thing is more analogous to knock off items like handbags or clothing items versus genuine items, quality is sacrificed as a trade off for effort/labor/material cost spent on imitating a design (usually focused mostly on the logo) within as limited a cost margin as possible to maintain a financial incentive to bother making the item. Knock off operations are of course purely for maximum profit, not to provide a public service or help anyone but themselves. Edited February 23, 2014 by mosyzlak

[fraggle42]

AFA The letter Angus wrote. I think that he should be admired for doing what he does, but honestly, when you accept preorders, and post photos of incomplete watches and prototypes on your website, all you are doing is opening yourself up for criticism. People are going to compare, and they are going to complain, that's human nature. and when they see watches with obvious flaws, they are going to express their opinion...

I don't think you've quite got the gist of what Angus' letter was about.

He happily accepts proper, constructive criticism.

He says he will not put up anymore with the mindless moaning and/or aggressive posts.

And that is quite true, there's far, far too many people just saying "this is a pile of cra@, is a wan... for selling it!" Or similar mindless, factless, useless but highly insulting drivel. (About any watch or product, and any dealer or M2M sales)

If I was the dealer I would take every person who said someone like that and put them all on a blacklist, circulated round all the dealers and the board admins. They (the buyers) have no interest in trying to improve the product, or work amicably towards a resolution, or provide any useful info for other prospective buyers.

The one good thing to come out of that is the people who take notice of stupid comments like that are the people likely to post more, similar comments, so if it puts people like that off from buying from the dealer, I don't think they'll shed a tear

I'm all for thought out free speech, but slander and bullying? Get rid of it.

[fraggle42]

Agree with everything said and have never complained about a 128 or 248 usd faulty rep BUT as prices are getting out of hand for simple Asian ETA movements (318/368 usd over 400 with shipping) more criticism and the need/claim for more quality assembly has to be allowed for.

There are two things that we can do:-

As you say, the more expensive they get, the higher quality and better QC we should expect.

OR we can simply not buy them, letting the dealers know we prefer cheaper but more flawed watches.

I think that at the moment we have a good range, Watch International are good at getting hold of nice, cheap watches that aren't copied down to the 'N'th detail. They won't satisfy the super rep lovers but they will keep a lot of others happy, and they can sometimes be a good source of parts or a good base for a franken. And then we have the super reps, and there's enough people buying them and enough reviews to help us know if it's really a good rep or a bucket of flaws.

[ceejay]

Angus is he's own worst enemy, in many ways he asks for what he gets. He hypes up the next super duper rep, posts pictures of pre production proto's that gets the nit pickers knickers in a twist and just sets he's self up to fail because these nit pickers expect perfection and they are never going to get that from a rep.

Let's be honest, these makers by now know what to look for when they are rapping a gen, font size, spacing, case shaping & sizing etc..etc..etc.

So maybe the rep community has a tiny amount of influence on a finished product, but I think it's all about generating business on Angus's front.

IMO he should stick to his business, lay low like Josh for instance and just provide exceplary customer service. Come and say hi once in a while or be available to settle disputes with forum members.

Just get the reps to within 90% and the modders will finish off the final 9%

[panerai153]

I don't think you've quite got the gist of what Angus' letter was about.

He happily accepts proper, constructive criticism.

He says he will not put up anymore with the mindless moaning and/or aggressive posts.

And that is quite true, there's far, far too many people just saying "this is a pile of cra@, is a wan... for selling it!" Or similar mindless, factless, useless but highly insulting drivel. (About any watch or product, and any dealer or M2M sales)

If I was the dealer I would take every person who said someone like that and put them all on a blacklist, circulated round all the dealers and the board admins. They (the buyers) have no interest in trying to improve the product, or work amicably towards a resolution, or provide any useful info for other prospective buyers.

The one good thing to come out of that is the people who take notice of stupid comments like that are the people likely to post more, similar comments, so if it puts people like that off from buying from the dealer, I don't think they'll shed a tear

I'm all for thought out free speech, but slander and bullying? Get rid of it.

Like I said, I'm an observer from the sidelines, as I seldom buy from dealers. But in reality, folks are going to complain, and they are going to point out flaws. Now I certainly agree with you that folks can carry it too far. We had the same thing  happen on the MKII forum when the Kingston project  took over 3 years to go from deposits to delivery. Some of the comments were really acerbic, and it finally got to the point where the mods had to step in and threaten folks with suspension for some of the comments. Interestingly, most of the worst comments came from folks who didn't even have a watch on order!! They came on the forum and started writing negative comments and had absolutely no reason to get involved. All this does is start a feeding frenzy among folks who don't have any reason to post in the first place. Bill Yao finally posted and very sharply told all involved that he would cheerfully refund the entire deposit of anyone who was unhappy, as their were lots of folks in line to take their places. Unfortunately, Angus can only agree to refund deposits if folks are not happy with the product or the time frame. He is probably pretty powerless to do anything else, because after rereading one of his early posts about how reps are made, it's clear that the makers have all the power. The  dealer is pretty much at the mercy of the makers. But with that in mind, and knowing that the makers are often not on schedule, and the first versions have flaws, delivery times are not guaranteed, nor is the quantity of watches guaranteed, perhaps Angus should rethink the idea of posting  incomplete  and/or prototype watches as well as accepting preorders, if it's going to cause this many problems.

 

Another point, I believe that in a lot of cases, the most vocal and abusive comments don't get much credibility from the other forum members. If some member get's the reputation as being  too vocal, too strident and complains all the time, I really believe that most folks just blow them off, skip over their posts or get a good laugh out of their drivel. I'm sure it makes Angus angry, because it is offensive, and in a lot of cases, he's being blamed for things that he has no control over. I believe that some folks, probably noobs that haven't read and researched the way reps are produced, seem to think that the dealer/maker is one and the same, and these watches are being built in a factory with the sales office up front, which isn't the way it works. 

 

I don't think that the idea of "blacklisting" people who complain, unless their complaints are threatening or really get too strident, is a good idea. I have heard some complaints about the new AP 44mm FC ROO from some pretty darn knowledgeable AP folks. Theirs weren't particularly bad on the scale of comments, but those guys buy a bunch of watches, and no matter what any one particular dealer does, other dealers are going to sell the person watches. Probably the only effective blacklist would be individuals who initiate PayPal actions for little or no reason. The dealers are in the business of selling watches, and I doubt seriously that the dealer network is such a tight and well organized brotherhood that one dealers" Whining and complaining Blacklist"  is going to have much impact on the others.

 

Like  I said, doesn't affect me for the most part, as I'm not what you would call and "early adopter", one of those folks that are standing in line for 2 days at the Apple store to buy the latest IPhone!! I'm more than happy to wait around and buy an almost new watch M2M from one of the first in line guys who bought it and then decided it wasn't for him.

[archierocks]

i wish someone would black list me id save a fortune             

[calatrava]

Happily the number of real flaws (dead / dyimg movements, hands come loose, markers come loose) are minimal, I think I've heard maybe 7 out of 400 delivered from the pre-release orders. Dunno how that compares to other mark 1 fresh releases, but it doesn't seem too bad to me.

 

To put that failure rate into perspective, the Aramar Arctic Ocean Snowflake homage with a top grade ETA 2824-2 had at least 2 dead movements out out a batch of 100. 

[fraggle42]

Angus is he's own worst enemy, in many ways he asks for what he gets. He hypes up the next super duper rep, posts pictures of pre production proto's that gets the nit pickers knickers in a twist and just sets he's self up to fail because these nit pickers expect perfection and they are never going to get that from a rep.

Let's be honest, these makers by now know what to look for when they are rapping a gen, font size, spacing, case shaping & sizing etc..etc..etc.

So maybe the rep community has a tiny amount of influence on a finished product, but I think it's all about generating business on Angus's front.

IMO he should stick to his business, lay low like Josh for instance and just provide exceplary customer service. Come and say hi once in a while or be available to settle disputes with forum members.

Just get the reps to within 90% and the modders will finish off the final 9%

I don't think anyone minds the nit-picker comments so long as they are factual and not rude. I've no doubt these people have better eyes than me and may own the gen to compare against.

I think a lot of little things were picked up on and some were fixed.

Whether the manufacturers would have picked up on these problems and fixed them themselves, who knows? Didn't Angus say that sales from these forums are about 4% of the total sales? So we don't really have the power to get everything fixed, and anything we do get fixed is a bonus!

[archierocks]

if all of the forums are only 4% of sales who else is buying the quantity  of reps we guys do i think once you buy one or two you would find your way on to the boards as you search out more .

 

I've not been to Asia in quite a few years so are the reps on the street now the same as the website guys supply  now ?