A Josh 5513 Build

[RickFlorida]

Hello everyone.   Hopefully I have this in the right section now, and will keep all my posts nice and tidy on this same thread as I should be able to use searching when needed and maybe ask a few questions as I build my project here.  

So many have you have helped me in the other threads about the basics.   I've decided to build a Tudor Sub by using a Josh 5513.   I'm new to this, and don't yet want to invest yet in a Yuki or other 800 case.  I do have some experience making jewelry so I should be able to manage the project decently if you gents don't mind helping me with specs every now and then.

 

Please feel free to add to this discussion if I have my plan incorrect or if you have any recommendations.

The Goal:   To build a Tudor Sub using a Josh 5513 and a ETA 2824-2 I already own.  (yes it's not a slowbeat, but I already own a 10 year old perfectly running ETA).  I will eventually just wear it on a Nato Strap as I already love using those on my current watch which is a Hybrid watch made of EPOS case and Marathon dial.

 

Do I have this initial plan correct?

Purchase Josh 5513

Purchase ETA adapter ring from Raffles (Since my 2824-2 case and Josh 5513 are no date, the ETA adpater ring should work)  (From what I've read here.)

Purchase A tudor dial.  (Not sure where to get this yet, I guess I have to get it from Yuki since Josh 5513 will fit 26mm dial)  

Some of you say purchase a better crystal.  (was it clarks t-19 or something like that?)

Shave down the stubby guards.   (I can file, sand, and re-polish with my jewelry skills, but where do I get the specs?  I have no genuine case for reference.  Can you recommend pictures or specs?

I'm hearing to purchase Athaya Crown/tube?    Or is there a different one I should get if it's a Tudor?   Not sure what to do here so please suggest if you can.

 

Another main question is this.    Does the ETA adapter ring help with how the feet of the dial is different or does it only help for spacing?

Also, why did I read someone had to use glue on some of the parts.  Is there no way to avoid using glue for anything?  As a jewelry (hobbyist), one should never use glue if things are fitted properly. The only exception is Pearls, as they are too delicate for friction fit.

 

 

Thank you gentlemen, I will post all of my work on this same thread and would appreciate any advice or answers.

[508-Fanatic]

There are a lot of build threads on here you can pull answers to your questions from as well - including mine. 

[RickFlorida]

Yes I believe you are right.   But after reading all of the posts I can find... I don't know how to see the correct contours of the crown guards.  I only read that they should be shaved down.  Yes they look stubby.  I could search for pictures and then approximate, but would like to look for specs that someone may already have for the dimensions of crown guards., etc.

 

There is a lot of good information, and probably once I have the 5513 in my hands and start measuring things, I will have some less questions.

 

I guess I should just post my progression here, and will do my best to search for information as well.

 

thanks,

Rick

[508-Fanatic]

 

Try to find DBane's work posted on here. He did my PCG's and they're perfect. Pictures of his work or Beachcomber's 5513 will be a good reference point.

 

[jmb]

It's gonna have to go to dbane to get a bevel like that!

If you get the Cartel watch you will have a movement spacer.  For all practical purposes if you start with an A2836 Cartel 5512/13 all you need to do is massage the CGs a bit, drill lugs, get the back engraved, and do a dial/hand swap.

[RickFlorida]

Yes, thank you guys.

 

If I didn't mention it, yes, I'll drill the lugs to 2mm.

 

My issue now is that I'm hearing that my 2824-2 ETA may have a stem height issue with the Cartel (josh) 5513.   I didn't get the Josh 5513 but probably will next week.  

That will be a problem for me, to have to sell my ETA 2824-2 and swap for an ETA 2836 or 2846.   For the life of me I cannot sell anything on Ebay or craigslist lately.   I'm having really bad luck selling things.   Hope i can still use my current movement.

 

Thanks Gents, I'll try to get parts soon so I can post progress.

[Dlf]

There are 2846's on eBay but they need a service probably.

case engraving can be done by jmb or Neckyzips .

[tomhorn]

Yes, thank you guys.

 

If I didn't mention it, yes, I'll drill the lugs to 2mm.

 

My issue now is that I'm hearing that my 2824-2 ETA may have a stem height issue with the Cartel (josh) 5513.   I didn't get the Josh 5513 but probably will next week.  

That will be a problem for me, to have to sell my ETA 2824-2 and swap for an ETA 2836 or 2846.   For the life of me I cannot sell anything on Ebay or craigslist lately.   I'm having really bad luck selling things.   Hope i can still use my current movement.

 

Thanks Gents, I'll try to get parts soon so I can post progress.

Stem height will be an issue if the version you bought from Josh comes with a 2836. It can be overcome, but it will end up costing you more than using the correct movement because you will have to change cannon pinions and find some way to build up a spacer for the dial to get everything aligned. This is why you plan everything first, before starting to buy parts for franken builds.

I have never built with Josh's 5513 case, but according to Sub007's post it will take gen parts, which is good. There's a complete parts list so follow it (he used a 2846, BTW).

https://rwg.cc/topic/179435-rolex-5513-spider-franken-build-complete

Obviously, as others have mentioned, the case is going to need a lot of work to get looking semi-good, but after getting that done your only issue will be if any of the available Tudor dials will fit.

You can always sell the 2824-2 here, or on one of the other rep boards if you don't want to bother with the Bay or CL.

[freddy333]

Rick - It is always best to use a genuine watch as your model, not another rep or franken. You can find more than enough pics via google or any of the gen Rolex forums.

[panerai153]

Rick, you have some good ideas, and it's really refreshing to see a new member come aboard with the enthusiasm that you have. I agree with Freddy, Google 5513 and there will be and "images" link, lots of photos of genuine. Also you might go over to the Vintage Rolex forum, go to the marketplace and search 5513. Should be lots of good images of watches that are or were for sale. One thing that you might encounter with watches that are as old as the 5513, are watches that have been over polished, and the contours have been altered and softened. You just have to look at a lot of photos and try to duplicate the contours of a good example. Remember the most important rule of Frankens, "plan your build, build your plan" if you don't you can well end up with a bunch of parts that don't fit, and before you know it, you are stuck with a half finished project and are way over budget.

.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[tomhorn]

Only he's not building a 5513 guys ... he's building a Tudor Sub using a 5513 case.

[RickFlorida]

Thank you, gents.  I see now how important the fitting of movement will be.   I will do as you say and take the time to get the right movement.   Now to be clear, are either slow beat ETA's available without date wheel?  In other words, does it matter for me to get the 2836 eta or 2846 if I am building a no date tudor sub with the josh 5513 case ?

[Dlf]

2836 isn't slow beat

2846 is / More accurate to the vintage piece you're building .

 

[jmb]

This is a Snowflake built with one of the "old" Cartel 5512 cases.  I thinned the CGs a little but there's not much that can be done about the length.  I have read lately that the new Cartel cases have better CGs, if so that is very good news.

[RickFlorida]

Nice!!!

 

 

So the latest info I have is that the Cartel/Josh 5513 that I'm getting has 21 jewel movement.     If it's 21 Jewels, doe this indicate if it's the 2813 clone?    I'm just wondering so I can plan on what spacers I will need, etc.

Edited October 22, 2015 by RickFlorida

[jmb]

Most likely.  The same movement spacer should fit the ETA movement as they are the same diameter.

[RickFlorida]

Update thanks to all you fine Gents, 

Firstly, Admins or moderators, can you please edit my thread title?  I should have mentioned I'm building a Tudor Sub with Josh/Cartel 5513

 

Tomhorn is correct about the confusion I caused.  I'm not building a 5513, I just am starting with that for the case.   Thank you.

 

So I think I figured out a few things that may help others.  First, thank you Tomhorn for getting me to look into the differences of what you may get with the 5513.  I believe I understand enough now to sum it all up:    Let me know if I'm wrong but I think I figured it all out.

If you pay for a Josh/Cartel 5513 and it's only 100 to 110 then it's going to come with the DG2813 which is good if you want to fit a swiss ETA 2824-2 which I happen to already own.

If you pay for the more expensive cartel 5513 you get the better cloned movement but will be easier to fit a 2846 or 2836.

 

Now here is one more question for you guys about movements and the case.   Wouldn't the Cartel 5513 case still be the same but just comes with a different spacer ring if it's the 2813 or the cloned 2836?  Is it not a single spacer ring that would move the stem height and center the crown stem?

I also ask because from what I'm reading, the 2813 Cartel 5513 may be coming with a plastic ring insert instead of a metal one like the better cloned movement.  (unless I'm wrong from the other threads),

 

And I would want to purchase a metal insert ring anyways to fit my movement.

 

Can anyone tell me if there really is a difference in the cases or is it just a single spacer ring like I assume?

[tomhorn]

Now here is one more question for you guys about movements and the case.   Wouldn't the Cartel 5513 case still be the same but just comes with a different spacer ring if it's the 2813 or the cloned 2836?  Is it not a single spacer ring that would move the stem height and center the crown stem?

I also ask because from what I'm reading, the 2813 Cartel 5513 may be coming with a plastic ring insert instead of a metal one like the better cloned movement.  (unless I'm wrong from the other threads),

Not necessarily. I would ask Josh to be sure, but with most reps, the case is built for the movement that goes in it, so swapping in a movement that is a different size is not going to work (easily) unless the two movements are basically the same size.

A 2813 is 5.4mm in height. The 2824 is 4.6mm or 4.7mm depending on which one you get. The 2836/2846 are 5.1mm which is closer. They also have higher cannon pinions. It might mean the case is the same.

Regardless, just swapping a movement ring is not going to let you use the 2824-2. The heights are wrong. Also, just want to make sure you know the A2813 hands won't work either.

[RickFlorida]

Hmm, interesting.   Than I need to ask the German fellow I saw who posted on another forum who said it was very easy to fit a 2824-2 in a 2813 5513 case.  His definition of easy may be different from ours.

I'll have to see what he meant then.

That's interesting that they would bother to make two different cases, unless they are originally from two different makers entirely.

Guess I will find out soon enough,  I will report more information once I get the parts in hand.

 

Thanks again.

Edited October 23, 2015 by RickFlorida

[RickFlorida]

I don't know whether to get a 702 crown or a 703 crown from Athaya.   What is the difference?  Or which one is better if I want to build an old Tudor from the Josh/Cartel 5513?

Thanks for any info.

I will hopefully be able to post pictures soon of my project.

Edited October 23, 2015 by RickFlorida

[droptopman]

Do not know your budget, but sometimes it is better to source a gen spec aftermarket case for a project like this.  Like a Yuki or Phong.  We did a 1675 cartel build and I was left with a bunch of parts I did not use or need (dial, bezel assembly, bezel insert, crown/tube, plexi, bracelet).  In the end sometimes it is actually more cost effective to just buy a good case and build from there.  

Also the discussion about crown position is valuable.  I bought a franken last year that had been converted from a 2836 to a 2824 and shortly after I received it the movement died.  I am no watchsmith, but my watchmaker said the movement died because the crown position was off.  We had to replace the movement with one that had the correct position.

The builds I have done that turned out the best had a solid project plan that outlined the whole build from start to finish with a spreadsheet to track costs.  A bunch of research on the front end; examining others builds that turned out successful and using similar parts and plan.    

Good luck on the project.  

I don't know whether to get a 702 crown or a 703 crown from Athaya.   What is the difference?  Or which one is better if I want to build an old Tudor from the Josh/Cartel 5513?

Thanks for any info.

I will hopefully be able to post pictures soon of my project.

Depends on what year/model you are trying to build.  

[RickFlorida]

Thanks for the great advice.  I just read that at least for the 702 Athaya, the threads in the Cartel case are identical.  

 

As for my budget, I want to do the best I can with the Cartel Case.  I just simply don't see the logic in spending 1000 bucks on a case to make a rep.

Unless I'm incorrect, don't we have only 2 choices?   Cartel/Josh cases for 100 bucks, or 800 to 1000 dollar phongs or Yukis?

And if that is true, why is no one else tooling up some nice gen. spec cases ans selling them for 200 or 250?

From what I have read, if you get a better case back, (flatter than Cartel), and better insert with quality pearl, then fix the cg's as best you can, replace the horrid crown.... it's not a bad case, especially for 100 bucks.  I've heard the bezel ring is near gen.

But I think you are correct that a gen. spec case on the inside would make it easier to then get a ETA  conversion ring/dial from Yuki if that's what you mean.

I was considering trying to get the case/watch from the mysterious storefront in Thailand I see you guys talking about.   But it seems you have to know someone who flies to the country.  (and people are hoarding the cases in their drawers, LOL)

 

But according to this German fellow, he's saying it's easy to drop my swiss movement into a 21J version (2813) Cartel.

 

I PM'd this guy and am hoping he can tell me just how easy it is..... We shall see!

[jmb]

Easy is relative...  Also, anything is possible but might cost more in the long-run than using the tight part to begin with.  You would need to make a thick dial spacer to set the 2824 down from the dial so the stem would then be in the middle of the tube.  Oh, geeze, now there's nothing sticking up through the dial to press hands onto so you need a cannon pinion, hour wheel, and second wheel with the associated labor to swap the parts over.  Not worth it in my book...

 

[automatico]

"And if that is true, why is no one else tooling up some nice gen. spec cases and selling them for 200 or 250?"

I have been asking that question for many years. It would cost very little more to make an 'in spec' vintage type case than an 'out of spec' case.

 

"If I didn't mention it, yes, I'll drill the lugs to 2mm."

Make that 1.3mm. I have seen a few with 2mm whoppers and they looked like a toad frog with little bitty eyes.  

[RickFlorida]

Easy is relative...  Also, anything is possible but might cost more in the long-run than using the tight part to begin with.  You would need to make a thick dial spacer to set the 2824 down from the dial so the stem would then be in the middle of the tube.  Oh, geeze, now there's nothing sticking up through the dial to press hands onto so you need a cannon pinion, hour wheel, and second wheel with the associated labor to swap the parts over.  Not worth it in my book...

 

Agreed, which is why I can't wait to hear from the German fellow who thinks it's so easy to do this.    I won't be rushing this build, thanks to you guys pointing out the important challenges that can arrive.

Maybe what I have left out of the story is just how well my 2824-2 has been serving me.  I currently have it where it was born which is in a EPOS dive style watch with a Marathon tritium dial.  The movement has been incredibly accurate for it's 8 or 9 years I've had it.    I trust it and just don't want to buy a different movement unless I have to.

If it proves difficult, then even if I purchase a second Josh/Cartel 5513 but next time with the 2836/46 clone.... I still would have only spent 300 something dollars.  I could sell my swiss ETA 2824-2 and purchase the 2846 ETA if I really have to.

 

I'd still save hundreds of dollars over buying a 1000 dollar yuki case.  

I would really love to be able to see just the mid case of the Cartel 5513 that ships with the 21J (2813) and the  200 dollar 5513 mid case that has the other movement and see if the they are really different.

 

 

Edited October 24, 2015 by RickFlorida