Eta Movements - How Rare Are They?

[tvt]

I'm surprised that there is so much debate here, to e it is just incredibly simple:

Dealers should offer ACCURATE and non confusing descriptions of what they sell, and then actually supply exactly what they described. Period, that simple.

There is no reason to use the term "Swiss ETA" instead of simply "ETA" for several reasons. First of all, as evidenced in this thread none of us REALLY know jack about where these things are coming from. They may or may not me completely made in Asia, they may or may not just be parts made in Asia and then assmbled in Swizterland, they may be gold, they may be silver, they may be all sorts of things. In the end we are making somewhat edcated guesses but guesses nonetheless. We do know that ETA has genuine factories in Asia but I guess we don't know EXATLY what is coming out of there. I always thought that ETA in fact made COMPLETE movements in Asia and elsewhere but when push comes to shove I can't point to any facts that say that. I somehow have it in my head and that is NOT valid proof. So at the end of the day we simply do not know. So a genuine ETA shoudl simply be called "genuine ETA" and leave it at that. Maybe it is Swiss, maybe it is Asian, maybe it is somewhere in between but if it is a genuien ETA we can assume a certain level of quality of ease of repair is there.

As for the "Seagulls" and that stuff it is crap, they are poorly made accoriding to The Zigmeister and my personal experiences confirm that. In addition they have been sold as "genuine ETA" and they are NOT that. So thesemovments should be labeled something like "COPY of 2892" just as Asian copies of the Valjoux should be labeled "COPY of 7750".

I just think you should get what you pay for, period. Charging someone for a genuine ETA and then selling them a fake is really no better then selling a completed fake as a gen... same exact thing.

[Devedander]

I agree wholeheartedly.

Just to clarify on one point, as I posted above:

A watch is defined as Swiss only if it meets three

cumulative requirements: (1) it must contain a Swiss movement,

-4- (2) the movement must have been encased in Switzerland, and (3)

the watch must have undergone final inspection by the

manufacturer in Switzerland.2/ The Swiss statute provides that a

movement is Swiss if at least 50% of the value of all of its

components parts is of Swiss manufacture, and if the movement is

assembled and inspected in Switzerland.

Which makes it hard for me to believe that any movements are completely made in Asia and still marketed with the Swiss Made by a legit Swiss company... the loophole being the 50% value statement which means a $40 Asian movement can have a jewel replaced with a $40 Swiss Jewel and then qualify for Swiss... however I think the "assemble" part still plays a big role...

[fotoman]

I just think you should get what you pay for, period. Charging someone for a genuine ETA and then selling them a fake is really no better then selling a completed fake as a gen... same exact thing.

1, don't forget these guys sell to people that aren't us and who have clue what an ETA is - but "Swiss" is universal language in fakes - walk down canal street and ask for swiss - you will get sad looks ask for ETA? they will tell you there is no MSG in teh food

anyway 2. Its not quite the same thing, Gen ETA movement @300 bucks - your out 300 bucks, selling a 200 PO as a 2000 your out 1700

Difference between a misdemeanor and a felony

We should be getting what they advertise- but i concede that i have to learn their language. its the black market - you have to know the lingo

if you got a crappy seagull movement, i say again as i said above - i would ask for a replacement and if i didn't get one i'd raise wholly [censored] - even if it was 1 yr later.

Also realize, these guys don't open up every watch, even if they are not drop shipping. It could be an honest mistake. If its knowing, then the dealer deserves what they get!!!

[Guest paintinc56]

No further comments, this is one of the most ridiculous threads I have ever seen, too much emotion and serioiusness for my taste...

RG

I guess when you know it all, such frivolous questions are ridiculous. Unforntunately, some of us useless gomerels who haven't devoted our lives to becoming horological savant self-acclaimed demigods find ourselves foolheartedly wandering into the sacrosanct domain of these elitists and desecrating THEIR personal forums.

My sincerest and deepest apologies.

[RWG Technical]

I guess when you know it all, such frivolous questions are ridiculous. Unforntunately, some of us useless gomerels who haven't devoted our lives to becoming horological savant self-acclaimed demigods find ourselves foolheartedly wandering into the sacrosanct domain of these elitists and desecrating THEIR personal forums.

My sincerest and deepest apologies.

No question who the smartass troll is...you got the same responses on TRC as well, from everyone.

Your wacked out, and from the replies of the others, I am not the only one that thinks that way.

We answered your questions, even with your over use of bold letters, rude comments, and so on, and with an attitude to go with it...what the hell else do you want?

You just can't please some people I guess...you can certainly forget about ever getting any help from me, you are already on the ignored and blocked list, on both forums. Find somewhere else to vent your experience and false rumours, and for gods sake, take your medicine...

While you may not like it, I do contribute to the forum and put hours and hours of my own time into helping others. What have you done? other than [censored] everyone off, because of your attitude, nothing else. Spreading false rumours based on some bone head and his comments on a web page...and then pissing everyone off that tried to respond.

Lets see you ante up and post something helpful, or a review of a watch, or anything to help or inform everyone here...up for a challenge? I though not...

RG

[cornerstone]

I guess when you know it all, such frivolous questions are ridiculous. Unforntunately, some of us useless gomerels who haven't devoted our lives to becoming horological savant self-acclaimed demigods find ourselves foolheartedly wandering into the sacrosanct domain of these elitists and desecrating THEIR personal forums.

My sincerest and deepest apologies.

Okay, bye!

[RWG Technical]

This topic has turned into the usual pointless pissing contest of the self-appointed horological elitists who feel they own these forums, so I will bid you all adieu.

Since you posted this before I came along, I guess everone above this post is also a jerk, so please do us all a favor, and keep your word, " ADIEU " and don't let the door hit ya!

RG

[tvt]

>>>anyway 2. Its not quite the same thing, Gen ETA movement @300 bucks - your out 300 bucks, selling a 200 PO as a 2000 your out 1700

Difference between a misdemeanor and a felony

We should be getting what they advertise- but i concede that i have to learn their language. its the black market - you have to know the lingo

if you got a crappy seagull movement, i say again as i said above - i would ask for a replacement and if i didn't get one i'd raise wholly [censored] - even if it was 1 yr later.<<<

Well to me it really IS the exact same thing. I don't care how much someone is having stolen from them, stealing is stealing. If you tell me a movement is a gen ETA and it is not then you have lied and stolen from me, just as if you lied to me and sold me a fake watch as a gen. I cannot forgive someone because of the dollar ammount involved.

I DO know the lingo. I have been involved with these things for years and even so if someone flat lies to you there is no lingo to decipher... it is just a lie. Lingo is understanding that a "Swiss ETA" may not really be from Switzerland, telling someone they are getting an ETA movement and then sending a crappy "Seagull" is just fraud.

As for demanding my money back, I am afraid that ship has sailed. The watch is over 2 years old. I generally do not wear my fakes all that much. Odd as it may sound I know I am not alone on this. I COLLECT them. I also colelct gens and those are what I tend to wear. So I got this particular watch, wore it a few times when it was brand new and then put it in my case. Recently I was talking to The Zigmeister and he told me that these have fake movements, I checked and sure enough it was fake and I realized I was ripped off. MAYBE the dealer did not know, who knows... but I know how it was advertised and I know what I got, and they do NOT match up.

[tonyp1]

So much hate on this board We should all remember that this is a fake watch forum.

We have to stick together!

Edited December 29, 2006 by tonyp1

[Cucumber_Jones]

I heart fake ETAs.

[Guest TTK]

Swiss.....schmiss.......it's all [censored]......as long as the hands go round and it tells the time.....and can be serviced........who gives a [censored].....what it says on the box.......I've never seen such a bunch of ill-informed snobs in my life.....ooohh......I want it with ETA Swiss.......I have sensitive eyes....I can detect the beat rate differential......well bully for you....the poor bozo you're trying to convince that the Sub on your arm is gen...will still think it's fake....and he won't base his decision on beat rate or rehaut or Swiss Made being spread over 3 or 5 tick marks.....he'll make his judgement on one fact only ...the 5 letters on the dial.......ROLEX.......the first clue that you're wearing a fake.

@The Zigmeister...words of wisdom once again.....I've always stated that the gold anodised ETA movements were Swiss made....and not the nickel ones......ETA have a manufacturing facility in Thailand....it's between me and Bangkok.....it produces ETA mov'ts......all of which can be bought over the counter in BK.....all 28xx series...including 2836.........some of the older members may recall that I was the first on the board to offer Planet Oceans and Railmasters which were retro-fitted with ETA movements by my watchsmith here.......the first batches were fitted with gold anodised movements......the reason being.....my watchsmith had a small stock of Swiss ETA mov'ts available....so the initial orders were all fitted with gold mov'ts......when the demand surged......he had to go to BK to buy them.....I accompanied him to the supplier.....( I carried the cash)......ALL the NEW ETA mov'ts......were nickel plated and came from the Thai plant......however ALL parts were interchangeable......only significant problem was the hand sizes......ETA pin was larger.....so the hands had to be drifted to fit......incidentally...I never got any of them back for repair....with the exception of one....and that was because the hands were marked.

BTW......as for quality of Rolex mov'ts.....there's a company that smacks the ass of Rolex and laughs in it's face when it's crying......that company is Seiko.....and it's Grand Seiko.....a significantly superior quality calibre to any Rolex calibre.....not only do they make more watches than Rolex.....they make a better product and show a degree of technical innovation that Rolex can only dream of....witness the Spring Drive.......!

As foe me.....I'll take a Grand Seiko or LaSalle over any Datejust / DD....!

Edited December 29, 2006 by TTK

[TwoTone]

Swiss.....schmiss.......it's all shite......as long as the hands go round and it tells the time.....and can be serviced........who gives a shit.....what it says on the box.......I've never seen such a bunch of ill-informed snobs in my life.....ooohh......I want it with ETA Swiss.......I have sensitive eyes....I can detect the beat rate differential......well bully for you....the poor bozo you're trying to convince that the Sub on your arm is gen...will still think it's fake....and he won't base his decision on beat rate or rehaut or Swiss Made being spread over 3 or 5 tick marks.....he'll make his judgement on one fact only ...the 5 letters on the dial.......ROLEX.......the first clue that you're wearing a fake.

@Neil

We'd appreciate it if you told us how you really feel...

Come on, you can do it...

TT

[Guest reprap99]

a lot of very spirited debate, but you can feel the love, too. and some good information here and there along the way as well. too many experts and not enough swiss eta movements to go around it seems. im just glad i still have my trusty timex. at least it will still be working long after this forum implodes. cheers!

[fotoman]

a lot of very spirited debate, but you can feel the love, too. and some good information here and there along the way as well. too many experts and not enough swiss eta movements to go around it seems. im just glad i still have my trusty timex. at least it will still be working long after this forum implodes. cheers!

The forum won't implode we'll be here for a long time unless the federalies shut us down

Every once and a while we get the occassional wound up or cooky nutty dude. Seems its been a busy month for loonies (I am including george)

Fact is this is 2006 has been the best year ever in rep collecting. We have a great "system" here with unbelievable acess to product.

Its time to sit back relax and start figuring out what things we aren't going to live up to in 2007.

And as neil says "its just a damn watch "

[crystalcranium]

Haven't we all agreed quite a while back that the notion of "Swiss Made" as it applies to anything horological, watch movements, watches, parts etc... is a manipulation of a national stamp of quality, not a guarantee of origin. The rules of the Swiss Federation are so broad that it reminds me of a frat house friend who said the dryest martini was one where you filled your glass with gin under a picture of the inventor of vermouth. You can technically call it a martini if you ascribe to these rules but lots of people will just see it as a glass of gin. As Neil said, the real question here is quality, and movements bearing the ETA hallmark, regardless of point of origin, are probably better performers over the long haul than their asian counterparts but, all mechanical watches will need service and adjustment. If I have a 21j Asian or an Asian made ETA movement that gives me 5 yeras of trouble free service and you have a Swiss made ETA, and we meet at our watchmaker at the same time, then what's the point of argument. It's like arguing who makes a better battery for a quartz watch, Maxell or Eveready???

The OP was rude and obnoxious although they did spark lively debate.

Let me see, at the risk of fanning cooling coals, if I have this straight.

Sealed in the package ETA movements. Probably gold plated. Probably manufactured at the ETA facillity in Switzerland but no reason to believe this plant of manufacturer is superior to an ETA plant in Thiland as far as producing ETA quality movements correct? The reason for obtaining these hermedically sealed movements is so one can say "I have a Swiss manufactured ETA movement" which might make some nipples hard but really means nothing more than where it came from and does not indicate superior quality over official ETA movements produced in ETA plants all over the world.

[bbob]

Loook at it this way, when you buy ETA you buy from a swiss owned company that has developed their movements with swiss knowledge.

So the technology in the watch is swiss. Yes manufacturing can be done outside swiss but you can rest assured that ETA has a name to keep up and that they will not sell inferiour products.

When you buy a BMW X5 this is made in the USA an shipped backed to europe. Are you buying a USA made car yes, but you are buying a BMW and BMW stands for a german developed car having german quality.

The watch industry is all about marketing a swiss made is very carefull in keeping up this name as using this name still allows them to charge a premium price, sometime to high price for their products.

Sure seiko makes some nice movements and quality could for some movements be better than some ETA movements. But Seike will alway have the name made in Japan and made in Japan means that they cannot have a premium price like swiss made.

Watches the more expensive ones it's all about lifestyle and showing that you have swiss made shows that you have money.

It's not about the quality it's about lifestyle and when talking lifestyle in most cases you are overpaying for what you are getting.

Back to the dealers here, I would not care if I got a thai, swiss, chinees made ETa movement as long as it is made in an ETA factory or a licensed ETA factory. Dealer here can use ETA as a reference.

In case we are talking about an chineese copy, meaning unlicensed yes they should tell this. If they are telling this it's up to their business ethics.

[RWG Technical]

Sealed in the package ETA movements. Probably gold plated. Probably manufactured at the ETA facillity in Switzerland but no reason to believe this plant of manufacturer is superior to an ETA plant in Thiland as far as producing ETA quality movements correct?

Correct. Never noted any difference between a Gold or Nickel plate one, well except for cost, a Nickel ETA costs lets say $100 for a 2836, a Gold ETA is $200...so guess which ones I buy??

The reason for obtaining these hermedically sealed movements is so one can say "I have a Swiss manufactured ETA movement" which might make some nipples hard but really means nothing more than where it came from and does not indicate superior quality over official ETA movements produced in ETA plants all over the world.

Right on, functionality, parts quality and fit and finish, timing, rate, accuracy, whatever, no noted differences between the Gold or the Nickel plated ones...they all work exactly the same...and the $30 Miyota 8215 is still the best value out there, workhorse, keeps amazing time, and is low cost...

There is NO reason for me to ever buy a ETA Gold movement, not a twice the price of the Nickel plated ones...I'm the only one that knows what's inside the watch anyway (my own)...

RG

[rolex666]

Sounds not logical to me commerically. If the silver one is much cheaper then the gold one, then, we should see all silver plated movement around. Why they need to pay higher to get the gold one? Sorry, but does not sounds right to me.

[s-o-w-m]

eta are also rare and gorgeous.....i only collect and sell swiss movement...............

[t]

eta are also rare and gorgeous.....i only collect and sell swiss movement...............

which of this watches have realy PRODUCED IN SWITZERLAND movement???

i am afraid... none

[longshot]

BTW......as for quality of Rolex mov'ts.....there's a company that smacks the ass of Rolex and laughs in it's face when it's crying......that company is Seiko.....and it's Grand Seiko.....a significantly superior quality calibre to any Rolex calibre.....not only do they make more watches than Rolex.....they make a better product and show a degree of technical innovation that Rolex can only dream of....witness the Spring Drive.......!

As foe me.....I'll take a Grand Seiko or LaSalle over any Datejust / DD....!

holy crap!!!!!!!

i have to agree with neil 100%

i took my seiko maine master 300m diver with the 8L35 movement (the same as used in grand seiko's and credors but without decoration) to a local watchmaker who has worked on rolex for years and he was amazed at the quality and fit and finish of the movement. grand seikos and credors etc do have that cachet in asian markets, just not in the us. a pity for us!

if you do a little research you will discover that not only has seiko been around longer than rolex and been much more of an innovator, but seiko has always produced 100% of their product in-house including mainsprings and lubricants and batteries for quartz watches. 100%.

here's a shot of come cheap japanese eye candy...

[bbob]

http://www.timezone.com/library/horologium...675591245315012 is a nice link to timezone and a rolex movement review.

Well the quality, meaning finish of rolex seems to be very poor according to Walt Odet that wrote the review.

One of his conclusions is very interesting:

The anomalies of the Rolex Explorer make it difficult to neatly summarize a personal opinion. For me, the only intriguing aspect of this watch is that a movement so lacking is basic workmanship is capable of being so accurately timed. This is, no doubt, a product of the thickness (and thus permissible loose tolerances) of the movement, and the use of computer-timed balance/spring assemblies.

The rest of his conclusions are also very hard on rolex.

[tvt]

When you are the king of the hill everbody is out to take you down a notch, that is just human nature. I am not saying that Rolex are or are not good movements, simply that any industry leader will endure much more harsh (and often unfair and unfounded) attacks than any of it's competitors. I am not sure of any idustry in which the sales or prestige (or both) leader is not under CONSTANT attack from all those around them. "Mercedes are just expensive Chryslers!" and so on. I am sure there is some truth to all of those arguments, and a lot of bitterness and jealousy as well.

[longshot]

http://www.timezone.com/library/horologium...675591245315012 is a nice link to timezone and a rolex movement review.

Well the quality, meaning finish of rolex seems to be very poor according to Walt Odet that wrote the review.

One of his conclusions is very interesting:

The anomalies of the Rolex Explorer make it difficult to neatly summarize a personal opinion. For me, the only intriguing aspect of this watch is that a movement so lacking is basic workmanship is capable of being so accurately timed. This is, no doubt, a product of the thickness (and thus permissible loose tolerances) of the movement, and the use of computer-timed balance/spring assemblies.

The rest of his conclusions are also very hard on rolex.

that review has been around for years and like (i think The Zigmeister?) said "that's just the start of the argument

i do know that if i had a dime for every watch forum argument that article has started i could probably buy a new SS daytona!!!

[ubiquitous]

Haha... If you guys REALLY want to ruffle some feathers, simply post a thread referencing the Odet's Rolex 3000 review on both the modern and vintage Rolex TZ forums... Everytime this topic comes up, people over there get all huffy and upset