About the 'sacre brands'

[GenTLe]

Recently I read around that the 3 sacre members of the horology are:

-VC

-PP

-AP

Here I ask to the history of horology why they are so 'sacred' and where brands like JLC or Breguet (both historical too and master of complications too) are positioned respect to them.

Thanks, GenTLe

[gasebah]

Who am I to judge? But I think these three cannot be the whole club. As you mentioned JLC and Breguet surely have earned a place in the olymp and even Lange & Soehne should be included IMHO.

Edited December 5, 2015 by gasebah

[kernow]

You missed Hublot

I think PP has that mystique about it. In the same was Rolls Royce does. Personally, I prefer JLC to AP, so I guess a lot of it is personal choice. 

[gasebah]

I think Hublot is way too recent to be in that circle. If you ever visit the Patek museum in Geneva you will know what I mean. These early watchmakers were making works of art with tools with which we would hardly manage to change a strap today.

[508-Fanatic]

I think Hublot is way too recent to be in that circle. If you ever visit the Patek museum in Geneva you will know what I mean. These early watchmakers were making works of art with tools with which we would hardly manage to change a strap today.

I second that on Hublot.

 

It's Patek, Audemars, and Vacheron... then Breguet, Rolex/Omega/Tudor, Zenith, JLC, then the rest - Lange, Panerai, Glashutte, etc

In my humble opinion...

[swdivad]

I think Hublot is way too recent to be in that circle. If you ever visit the Patek museum in Geneva you will know what I mean. These early watchmakers were making works of art with tools with which we would hardly manage to change a strap today.

 

I second that on Hublot.

 

It's Patek, Audemars, and Vacheron... then Breguet, Rolex/Omega/Tudor, Zenith, JLC, then the rest - Lange, Panerai, Glashutte, etc

In my humble opinion...

 I think kernow was being facetious with his comment about Hublot ;-)

[508-Fanatic]

 

 I think kernow was being facetious with his comment about Hublot ;-)

How do you even pronounce that? You blow? Hugh Blow? 

[kernow]

How do you even pronounce that? You blow? Hugh Blow? 

I think it's pronounced Ugly

[Guest REPPIN]

LOL. Hublot. 

 

Bigges rip rip off in the watch industry. 

 

Just another Jean Claude Biver marketing [censored] company. At least he can't [censored] up Tag Heuer more than it already is. 

 

I second that on Hublot.

 

It's Patek, Audemars, and Vacheron... then Breguet, Rolex/Omega/Tudor, Zenith, JLC, then the rest - Lange, Panerai, Glashutte, etc

In my humble opinion...

NO WAY! 

Lange is second only to Patek in my opinion. There is no other finishing in the world that compares. Even AP and Vach don't have the finishing of even the most basic Lange. 

Lange shouldn't even be in the same sentence as Panerai.  Come on dude. Really? I'm not trying to be an Ass hole but if you think any of the brands that you mentioned are above Lange other than Patek. Then I really don't think you know what your talking about. Have you ever seen a real Lange in person?

Edited December 6, 2015 by REPPIN

[508-Fanatic]

LOL. Hublot. 

 

Bigges rip rip off in the watch industry. 

 

Just another Jean Claude Biver marketing [censored] company. At least he can't [censored] up Tag Heuer more than it already is. 

NO WAY! 

Lange is second only to Patek in my opinion. There is no other finishing in the world that compares. Even AP and Vach don't have the finishing of even the most basic Lange. 

Lange shouldn't even be in the same sentence as Panerai.  Come on dude. Really? I'm not trying to be an Ass hole but if you think any of the brands that you mentioned are above Lange other than Patek. Then I really don't think you know what your talking about. Have you ever seen a real Lange in person?

Of course I have. However they're in my opinion a small boutique brand with little to do regarding grand complications, inventions, etc. They're gorgeous watches and they have amazing decoration and all that jazz... don't get me wrong, I love them but I put what I feel are the steady, rock-solid brands that either command the most for history, complication, production or contribution to horologie ahead. If you want to talk about people that just make neat beautiful watches there's like 30 really cool boutique manufacturers out there I'd put up with Patek any day of the week... but they aren't Patek. 

For example, have you ever seen the MCT Sequential 2

http://www.mctwatches.com/content/sequential-two-s200

 

[Guest REPPIN]

Of course I have. However they're in my opinion a small boutique brand with little to do regarding grand complications, inventions, etc. They're gorgeous watches and they have amazing decoration and all that jazz... don't get me wrong, I love them but I put what I feel are the steady, rock-solid brands that either command the most for history, complication, production or contribution to horologie ahead. If you want to talk about people that just make neat beautiful watches there's like 30 really cool boutique manufacturers out there I'd put up with Patek any day of the week... but they aren't Patek. 

For example, have you ever seen the MCT Sequential 2

http://www.mctwatches.com/content/sequential-two-s200

 

I guess I understand where you are going. I just thought we were discussing "sacred" brands, not robust, rock solid brands. 

I do agree with you though...nobody is Patek. 

That MCT is pretty cool, not my style but still cool none the less. 

[tyrantblade]

I think with the top 3 its all about being around the longest, price, and prestige/exclusivity

If they weren't marketed to be luxury since way back things would be different 

[swdivad]

Of course I have. However they're in my opinion a small boutique brand with little to do regarding grand complications, inventions, etc. They're gorgeous watches and they have amazing decoration and all that jazz... don't get me wrong, I love them but I put what I feel are the steady, rock-solid brands that either command the most for history, complication, production or contribution to horologie ahead. If you want to talk about people that just make neat beautiful watches there's like 30 really cool boutique manufacturers out there I'd put up with Patek any day of the week... but they aren't Patek. 

For example, have you ever seen the MCT Sequential 2

http://www.mctwatches.com/content/sequential-two-s200

 

Actually, A. Lange did bring many innovations to the watchmaking industry, but you're correct in regards to extreme complications. Many of his innovations/patents were implemented by others throughout the years, and still used today. A. Lange's innovations lean more on the engineering of movements as opposed to the development of grand complications, etc... this was all back 170 years ago when precision was an extremely difficult feat. 

I think the sacred brands will remain as PP, VC, AL&S, Breguet, Cartier, JLC, AP, I might have forgotten a few... but not many others have even the remote possibility of breaking into that club; and it shows...  if you look at their movements under a loupe, there's a world of difference in the craftsmanship that just can't be replicated (yet) by any cnc robotic machinery that's used by the likes of Rolex, Panerai, Omega, Breitling, Tag, etc...

These days, there are quite a few brands coming out with extremely complicated watches... as well as the the newcomers building amazing mini machines like MB&F and Urwerk, Franck Muller; even Tag and Hublot are submitting their own complications for the sake of competition and marketing.

To me, although there are some really cool engineering companies designing watches/movements these days, nothing compares to the very few from 150+ years ago when all they had to work with were hammers, chisels, and horses.

[unreformed66]

So where do you guys think that IWC falls in the hierarchy? 

[swdivad]

So where do you guys think that IWC falls in the hierarchy? 

I think they fall in a bit above the Rolex camp

[GenTLe]

So where do you guys think that IWC falls in the hierarchy? 

Uhm... I like IWCs but for many pieces they use a standard ETA coupled with a Dubois Depraz module... Not exactly an in-house movement... I would put them near Tudor and Tag. A step upper just because they also have few in-house ones.

[508-Fanatic]

I think they fall in a bit above the Rolex camp

I agree with that - just a bit. 

 

Uhm... I like IWCs but for many pieces they use a standard ETA coupled with a Dubois Depraz module... Not exactly an in-house movement... I would put them near Tudor and Tag. A step upper just because they also have few in-house ones.

That's a very solid point.

[droptopman]

Good discussion.  Only one brand for me...although of late I have been looking at some vintage PP for a dress watch for work.  They say when Rolex owners grow up they buy a PP...

[swdivad]

I agree with that - just a bit. 

 

That's a very solid point.

I still think that IWC is a step up from Rolex, but it's highly subjective. Unless you want to count the blinged out paved models of otherwise standard models. IWC has their standard low cost models with non-inhouse movements on-par with Tudor, but also their Portugieser line (and maybe other) with different levels of complications and in-house movements.

They're both mostly medium to high run production products, and to me, Rolex is made more for the masses, and IWC more geared towards the unique... (ducking the pending fallout)

[unreformed66]

I still think that IWC is a step up from Rolex, but it's highly subjective. Unless you want to count the blinged out paved models of otherwise standard models. IWC has their standard low cost models with non-inhouse movements on-par with Tudor, but also their Portugieser line (and maybe other) with different levels of complications and in-house movements.

They're both mostly medium to high run production products, and to me, Rolex is made more for the masses, and IWC more geared towards the unique... (ducking the pending fallout)

That's kind of my take on it as well.  Something for the person who doesn't want what everyone else is wearing. Of course there are other brands that the same thing could be said about.

[automatico]

Imho...I always thought the 'sacred three' were PP, AP, VC. I believe the hype (brought about by fancy modern advertising) is much stronger than the actual products any of them ever produced. Always remember that PP was down and out, bankrupt, and not really highly respected (like today) when the Stern family bought it out and took it upscale. I have owned a few but they were older models and truth be told, they did not impress me. The only PP I ever liked was the manual wind Calatrava and never liked anything AP and VC made except maybe a few of their older gold manual wind models from the 1950s/1960s on leather straps. They has class, much like the Hamilton brand back then.

I was around many of these 'high grade' watches 25 or 30 years ago when parts were available and local watch mechanics took them in for repair. One fellow who was a master at watch repair told me over and over about how fragile and flimsy these 'high grade' movements were. I was too dumb to take the advice and got a few harsh lessons with a PP Ellipse (manual wind cal 600), AP RO, a manual wind VC and a few others later on. The way I see it, these 'high grade' brands are fine for owners who work in offices, hang around country clubs, and do not mind dropping many $thousand$ up front for a watch and a few $thousand$ every few years on repairs and service but this is not for me.

As for IWC, the company was founded by an American (FA Jones) many years ago in Switzerland and was never thought of as 'high grade' until recently. They built their present 'high grade' reputation on simple cases with slicked up Eta movements and slicker Aero Advertising. Not much Haute Horology there.

For me, rolex is bad enough and you can buy them used at pawn shops, new at Costco, and get parts on eBay.   

The above comes from a guy who wears a $100 TAG Heuer quartz watch. Take it with a half grain of salt.  

Edited December 8, 2015 by automatico