jmb Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 It seems that nothing is very consistent about the case engraving considering the 12:00 side of the case. I've discovered that prior to 1980 the engraving should read "REGISTERED DESIGN" , 1989-1981 this spot is vacant andonly the reference numbers is engraved. Starting in 1982 "Orig Rolex Design" appeared and al seemed cut-and-dried except for... I have seen example of factory engraving with and without a period after the ORIG. When looking through a mountain of images for a 16610 T I discovered that all of the "T" models seemed to have a period where the plain 16610 had no period. I have also ran into this on 1016 cases as well. If anybody can shed any light on this I would love to "see the light" so I can make my engraving more accurate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Propofol Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 Interested too. Even if with Rolex, nothing has ever been really consistent over the years with a lot of perturbations among the years .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneP Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 From what I read somewhere, I can't remember where tho, due to some patents changing & copyright law in 1980 only the ref. # appeared @ 12:00. Here is a pic I got from Jacek's site of a 1980 5513 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 I always wondered how they numbered/lettered so many cases. Back in the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s when they made a few hundred thousand numbered cases per year (with little automation compared to now), it would have been quite a job. The case backs are stamped and this only takes a whack! with a stamping machine but since cases have so many different number/letter combinations it seems like a huge job. Maybe an automated engraving machine of some sort was used. I have seen quite a few numbers and letters that looked pretty bad so this may knock the automated machine theory out on 1950/1960/1970 cases because a machine should have done a better job. One guess is the letters and numbers are done fairly early in the case making process and since the cases are not finished or polished yet the machine operator doing the numbers/letters would not have to be overly careful. This may account for the shoddy job on some cases. I have also noticed a few numbers/letters on 1520/30/60/70 autowind plates look like they were done by hand. Others appear to be machine made. Who knows? I vote the skinnyest, sneakyest, stealthyest (are these real words?) member go to Switzerland and slip into the factory and find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmb Posted February 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 Nice shot of that, D! Research I've done indicate that when the patent ran out then the 12:00 side bore only the reference number from 1980, 1981 (6.2M to 7M) and starting in 1982 ORIG ROLEX DESIGN. I still have not seen any mention of the period on any site so I'm left confused. Auto - your right about the "quality". The newer ones look very crisp but some of the really vintage stuff looks like it was done by hand with a pantograph or even free-hand! Here's what my CNC does with a diamond drag point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawrzhu Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 I will update this thread when I get home, I have some pics, btw thanks JMB for my engraving 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmb Posted February 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 Glad you like it, raw! I think I've pretty much figure out most things except the stinkin' sometimes there period! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymanmatt Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 The only thing I know for sure is that the patent on the datejust case expired sometime between 1977-79, Prior to that the cases said registered design, meaning it was patented. After that they started using orig rolex design. That meant not patented, but that rolex designed it originally. Some of the cases during the 79-8x were cases that were produced under the patent. They changed the engraving to eliminate the patent engraving. Some of them have very strange looking engraving. If you ask rolex, they are not sure exactly when their datejust patent expired. My friend that I see weekly, if not daily, worked for rolex when they were in new york. He was there for 17 years doing service every day. Some of the stories he tells about working at rolex would freak most people out. Of course it's changed a lot in the last 20 years I'm sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyB Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 2 hours ago, jmb said: The newer ones look very crisp but some of the really vintage stuff looks like it was done by hand with a pantograph or even free-hand! JMB, you've got that vintage look nailed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmb Posted February 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 (edited) Joey - lookin' good! Somebody check this out. Would this be a service case which was then engraved with old serial number or is it a fake? The S/N is from late 60s but the case reads "Orig Rolex Design" like a later case!!! http://www.mywatchmart.com/listing/86008-fs-rolex-1016-explorer-i-unpolished-case/ Edited February 2, 2016 by jmb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawrzhu Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 (edited) Notice how the recent 16610 with no lugholes have the T. They all have ORIG. ROLEX DESIGN and all of them line up. The 1 is under the G and the T ends under the S. The Serial numbers are pretty evenly spaced out They Letter of the serial number starts between the T and end Between the E. the original engraving you did for me were a little to close and off by a little bit as pictured Edited February 3, 2016 by rawrzhu adding more info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmb Posted February 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 That was first attempt, the second go-round was spaced as in your pictures. But, my reason for starting this thread was to nail down THE STINKIN' PERIOD!!!!!! I never thought about the freakin' period until your project when you asked whether the period was there or not. Your research seems to parallel mine in that Sub models with 16610 T reference all seem to have a period. Al of the 16610 models I looked at don't. I have also seen pictures of two 1983 Explorers where one had a period and the other sans period. It's about to make my head unscrew! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawrzhu Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 Yup Lol, i guess this hobby is really true the more you rep the more you learn. Ill send my future LV to you for engravings and we can utilize the info we learned in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmb Posted February 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 In doing an LV for someone on RWI I found that they are just labeled 16610 T w/o holes and sans T for holes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
username here Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 I dont have pics, but my last sub was a holes case, but had the t. I had it checked at a local ad by their tech. He confirmed it was fully gen. I had the original receipt and this was the ad from the sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmb Posted February 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 Interesting, every on-line picture I have seen has not had a T with holes... Does anybody know what the "T" denotes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawrzhu Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 trous borgnes or no lug holes in french ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrickvilleboy Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 my gen 16610 no holes also has the T. There is a thought school that thinks T stands for "transition" but I doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmb Posted February 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 I saw discussions on TRF and Timezone where "transition" was mentioned but the majority opinion seemed to be in favor of no lug holes. But, we appear to have an example here that dispute that opinion! The plot thickens... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 "My friend that I see weekly, if not daily, worked for rolex when they were in new york. He was there for 17 years doing service every day. Some of the stories he tells about working at rolex would freak most people out." I had friends in a rolex AD from the early 1970s through the 1990s and the owner and one sales clerk knew a lot of 'old timers' at rwc in NYC. I talked on the phone to a few friendly rolex mechanics, parts guys etc during this time and they were always willing to help. Also during the later part of this time I started seeing some botched repair jobs out of rNYC... movements not keeping time, screwdriver skid marks, tweezer pecks where they held plates down with sharp tweezers, movements loose in the case, dirt on dials, hands out of correspondence, dates changing an hour or two from midnight, gouge marks on cases and case backs, damaged gold bezels, fingerprints and scratches on dials, date magnifiers out of place, etc. This was the 'factory authorized' repair on watches that customers insisted be done by rolex NYC. The AD had two and a half inhouse watch repair guys during this time and one was 'super good', the other one 'very good', and the half (part time) was a half assed hack. I heard the hack was finally fired for stealing parts and charging for c/o not performed. The 'super good' repair guy told me customers who paid for c/o not performed were lucky the botch guy did not try to work on their watches. I am sure a whole lot of this still goes on...if the movement looks good, remove the aw assembly and dial, c/o the balance jewels, oil what you can get to, put some new gaskets on it, and ship it out. It will probably run for 5+ years and the owner never knows the difference. I remember one time when a guy bought a brand new double qs yg Prez and wanted a black diamond dial. R NYC would not send one to the AD because of their 'new policy' so the AD had to send the watch to NYC for the dial to be installed. I looked at it when it came back...the case back and case sides were badly scratched, the dial had a fingerprint on it, and the hands were out of correspondence. They had called r NYC and r NYC accused the AD of doing all the damage...the watch had not been worn out of the store, it was only tried on. The AD had to eat the damage and sell it to someone else at a deep discount while having to order another watch from r NYC with a diamond dial factory installed. Anyone else have any rwc horror stories? "Does anybody know what the "T" denotes?" My 'unpolished' F520117 16610 noobmariner has the T. T for TX! T for TN! Period! ...or maybe T for Taiwan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmb Posted February 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 That's scary... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawrzhu Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 pictures from the book the difference is a MARK 1 and a MARK 2 , mark 2 has the letter "t" meaning Trous Borgnes" sunken Holes On 2/3/2016 at 11:03 PM, marrickvilleboy said: my gen 16610 no holes also has the T. There is a thought school that thinks T stands for "transition" but I doubt it. Forgot to Add mark 1 had holes, and Mark 2 no holes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmb Posted February 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Cool, if we can figure out the period we're all set... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tienbang Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 now I'm regretting not asking if you could do a SN engraving on my BPSD when you had it for lug hole drilling, Justin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sogeha Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 This rep business is worse than a class A drug habit. I started out thinking 250 Dollars and I'm happy with a nice sub. I started reading and ended up buying from Phong for a bit more than my original budget. I like that watch a lot, but it has upgrades planned, meanwhile I'm saving for a big crown project, case that needs work 1600 and then I discovered a dial maker with the most beautiful dials and prices. Down the rabbit hole I definitely fell, yet I keep looking at genuine watches and now I'm seeing the most Frankenstein pieces with service dials, wrong this, later that going for strong money. This conversation is fascinating to me, but if I'd bought a genuine Rolex, I'm sure this whole numbers and font thing would have been some scratches on the case covered by the bracelet that nobody sees. Dumb but rich is definitely a good option. I seriously thinking that on the best Frankenstein builds the biggest tell is that everything is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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