ogladio Posted March 2, 2016 Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 Sorry if question is stupid, but realized I didn't know definitions and couldn't find any when doing quick search. What does "refinished gen dial" actually mean? Eg, must base dial be of exact same reference, eg 6538? Or is it enough that dial is just the same size?? Any difference from term "redial"? Does "gen dial" imply anything else than "on gen plates"? Are all makers (say from Ndt to Tonny to Ivan) btw using same definitions? Can it be verified that a dial from any of these are indeed refinished gen dials and not just painted on a newly produced chinese plate? Lots of questions as you notice, appreciate any help gentlemen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrickvilleboy Posted March 2, 2016 Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 Believe refinished could either mean 'repainted on a genuine similar size dial plate' or 'repainted on same reference genuine dial plate" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmb Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 To me it's one step above a rep dial. A lot of "refinished" dials claim to be repainted onto a "genuine" base but who can really tell anymore. Some that claim to be refinished/repainted are obviously rep dials with feet in the Rolex position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneed12 Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 If you are looking at the refinished 16750 dial on ebay right now, it means "garbage"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UmpaHimself Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 In the end it all depends on how the dial looks. Most of these "refinished dials" look like they've been hand panted and not precise. I'd personally rather have a well printed rep dial than a poorly painted "refinished." But sometimes there are good ones so you just got to get something when it looks right. I also think many of the sellers use that term to get away with selling rep or unauthorized dials on eBay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Yes, there are "refinished dials on gen plates" and then there are "refinished dials on gen plates". You get what you pay for. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymanmatt Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 The true definition of gen refinished dial, is exactly that. Example. A gen refinished president's dial is a gen baseplate, that has been refinished. If it's not a gen dial to start with, it is 100% aftermarket. There are many, so called, refinished dials on ebay, but not on gen baseplates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogladio Posted March 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Yes, there are "refinished dials on gen plates" and then there are "refinished dials on gen plates". You get what you pay for. The true definition of gen refinished dial, is exactly that. Example. A gen refinished president's dial is a gen baseplate, that has been refinished. If it's not a gen dial to start with, it is 100% aftermarket. There are many, so called, refinished dials on ebay, but not on gen baseplates. Thank you all for good input, Think the answer is here somewhere... Was not really asking about the quality of the "refinish job" - that is visible to the naked eye. What I'm wondering about is the added cost impaired when indicating that a dial is "gen, but refinished". If I take a pristine condition gen 5513 maxi dial and hand paint the words "comex" on it - then at least I know that I'm out say $2000 for the base dial. Then maybe I've also sabotaged it so the value is significantly less after my poor effort, but that's another question. I can clearly buy that a gen dial with some flaw (say markings after a sloppy watchmaker has installed it) has a much higher value after it has been fixed by a professional restorer has refinished it. Somehow I can also accept that a totally messed up original 6538/Paul Newman Daytona whatever dial has a higher value if professionaly refinished. What I can't get yet however is what a "gen baseplate" means? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 I would bet that just about every 'dial refinished on a genuine dial plate' is not what it is claimed to be. Why? Because not many genuine dial plates are floating around today like they were 20 or 25 years ago. I used to see old rolex dials (mostly 6694, 1500, 1600 DJ etc) at NAWCC shows for $15 or $20 each and only bought 8 or 10 in all the years I belonged to the NAWCC. They just were not important back then like they are now because you could still buy dials at the friendly rolex AD. Fast forward to 2000 or so when higher grade 'refinished' dials started showing up, there were not nearly enough 'genuine dial plates' to go around so fakers did what they do best...make fake signed dial plates. Since the genuine signed plates were sometimes roughly signed anyway, the bogus plates will usually pass inspection...except for the wrong sized dial feet posts, shoddy soldering, and notches at 3. What difference does a dial 'refinished on a genuine dial plate' make compared to 'refinished on a fake dial plate'? None at all unless the rest of the watch is genuine imho. One could claim a refinished dial using a genuine signed dial plate is 100% Ok (I would go along with this), but in reality the same refinishing job on a fake signed dial plate does not make much difference on an otherwise genuine watch (to many) and no difference at all on a fake or Frankenstien watch imho. In order to determine if the dial plate is genuine you would need to be somewhat of a 'backside dial expert' and after all, how many rolex characters will allow some Bozo to r/r their 'refinished dial on a genuine dial plate' (oxymoron!) just to try to tell if the damn plate is genuine to the brand? Not many I bet. As for the 'genuine dial plate' being original to a particular watch...it would be a real stretch to prove such a claim. Btw...the rolex purists who will not allow a 'refinished dial on a replica dial plate' on an otherwise genuine watch today would have been dancing in the street 20 years ago for a refinished dial on a fake plate with the quality we have today. The bottom line (to me anyway) is a genuine watch should have a genuine dial plate if possible and replicas and F-steins do not matter at all. As time goes by and top grade replica cases, dials, bracelets etc can not be distinguished from genuine, the 'genuine dial plate' matter will disappear just like the '100% genuine, never welded or polished case' matter is slowly dissolving now. Q...If the swiss watch factories could make nearly identical genuine cases by the thousands with the tools available 50 years ago...why can't the Chinese/Taiwanese etc make them now on the super high tech machines they have today for almost $nothing, like cranking out Canal Street Specials? A...They can, they just don't want to. They could also make dials that are identical to genuine (except for tritium) but they do not want to do this either. But they are very close on both counts. 'dial plate = 'baseplate' 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymanmatt Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Here are some examples of dials and cost. Top left is a 100% gen dial. Late model 118238, original finish from rolex. Easily worth $400. Top right is a gen baseplate that has been refinished and romans added. Value of this dial is around $200. The bottom is an aftermarket baseplate with correct feet position for a rolex, painted, not refinished because it's new and never been painted, and romans added. The value of that dial is around $130. As you can see, the value is in an original dial. The better the condition the higher the value. If it's a genuine rare dial, it has value in any condition, as long as it's not been refinished. The better the condition the higher the price. I n bad condition not worth as much. Refinished, the value drops dramatically. On the white roman aftermarket, notice the smaller size of the day window. My reps are better than that 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desai Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Here are some examples of dials and cost. Top left is a 100% gen dial. Late model 118238, original finish from rolex. Easily worth $400. Top right is a gen baseplate that has been refinished and romans added. Value of this dial is around $200. The bottom is an aftermarket baseplate with correct feet position for a rolex, painted, not refinished because it's new and never been painted, and romans added. The value of that dial is around $130. As you can see, the value is in an original dial. The better the condition the higher the value. If it's a genuine rare dial, it has value in any condition, as long as it's not been refinished. The better the condition the higher the price. I n bad condition not worth as much. Refinished, the value drops dramatically. On the white roman aftermarket, notice the smaller size of the day window. My reps are better than that You really do good job. As u said better than gen. Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGONZCA Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 I was just looking for a "refinished" gilt dial myself. There is this Tonnywatches guy who sells them for $250 and on the other side there is MQ that sells the for $800!!! So because of the pricing I have to assume that MQ dials are better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogladio Posted March 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 I was just looking for a "refinished" gilt dial myself. There is this Tonnywatches guy who sells them for $250 and on the other side there is MQ that sells the for $800!!! So because of the pricing I have to assume that MQ dials are better? Now the term "refinished GILT dial" seems especially silly, as that has nothing to do with the original baseplate (="the brass"). Rather a paint technique (although it helps that technique if material is indeed brass). To me, it looks as the first picture shows a dial with "painted gilt", ie not "real gilt". Otherwise I've been very impressed by the quality on many of the dials from Tonnywatches especially given reasonable price, but quality does vary. Will not comment on whether his dial plates are actually "genuine" or if that's just marketing bs... Compared to a $2k dial from Ivan they generally look pale, but for 10% of that cost still very impressive in general. Depends on what build you're trying to put together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Here's a Tonny I picked up, the picture sucks but it's indeed black paint over brass with the relief edge showing. Not bad for 1/10 the price of a Dark Lord dial. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam007 Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Looks great Nanuq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogladio Posted March 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Wow Nanuq, yes that is indeed nice. Perhaps then just odd lighting in the picture above causing it to look "yellow". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc33 Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 12 hours ago, Nanuq said: Here's a Tonny I picked up, the picture sucks but it's indeed black paint over brass with the relief edge showing. Not bad for 1/10 the price of a Dark Lord dial. Looks great! Is it just me or is the minute track painted on? Looks like it's all true gilt except for that, unless the lighting is tricking me. Minh dials aren't done on gen plates, the thickness of the plate itself is the way to check quickly, gen is thick, his aren't.. The dark lord uses gen plates exclusively for a few different reasons and that's why his prices have gone up up up lately, because of the cost and effort to find them. Usually the plate is era specific but not model specific. If a 6538 dial is 27mm then he can use any 1030 plate with a 27mm size. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 If a reliable private seller describes a dial as 'refinished gen dial', I would expect they mean a genuine dial that has been repainted. If a vendor describes a dial as 'refinished gen dial', I would expect they mean a dial that has been painted. Only if/when that dial plate can be authenticated by the gen company would I assume the plate to be genuine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Let's not forget the new claims being tossed around of "genuine Swiss paint"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revere Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 13 minutes ago, Nanuq said: Let's not forget the new claims being tossed around of "genuine Swiss paint"! Yeah, what's that about? Isn't the whole point that there was no paint used...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc33 Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 No paint used except for the depth rating and sometimes word submariner on old dials. It's a marketing ploy like "hd" or any other bogus term used to increase sales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymanmatt Posted March 5, 2016 Report Share Posted March 5, 2016 The most popular gen rolex dials that I sell are silver and champagne. They are not painted at all. If you look you will notice a silver baseplate for the silver dials and a gold baseplate for the champagne. That is because they are plated, not painted. It is a process used only in switzerland until now. One of my refinishers is now using that process. I'm speaking of course about rolex. Black has the same process. However many white, black, blue, green and so on are painted. The dial world can be as hard to know as the fraken world. Bottom line, know who your doing business with. That's the best way to get what you really want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mech500 Posted March 5, 2016 Report Share Posted March 5, 2016 Some people will buy a cheap ass gen date just plate and print on a picture of a super rare comex dial or whatever and think it's better than any other fake dial. Lol Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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