6541 Milgauss Build

[meadowsweet_]

Just wanted to fire up a thread on a 6541 Milgauss build as I get started with it and progress through it. Wanted to share some initial QC pics of the dial and case, etc. Literally all the components of the build is en route to me and needed parts start showing up first thing next week...

 

(Some inspiration for the build:)

 

Dammit Slay...

A genuine 6541 Milgauss is an extremely rare bird indeed with auction estimated well into the six figures if and when they even do pop up on the auction block. Accordingly, a 6541 build of your own can get EXTREMELY expensive. Maybe not a quarter mil like a gen, but still... There are few case options out there for vintage Milgauss builds and what is out there is pricey. More with this build than some others perhaps, but the case, as much as the dial, makes or breaks this project. The case is especially important because of the unique internal construction of its Farraday cage shielding the movement from potentially harmful magnetic fields. Aside from the frankly terrible budget (Cartel?) out-of-the-box versions of the 6541 that are floating around, you're left with what appears to be pretty much just two (albeit two very good) case set options: Phong or MQ. And if you've ever looked into the case prices of either, you start to understand why so few people endeavor upon these builds - Minh Q's case comes in at around $1250 and Phong's around $1800(!) iirc. So before you even start looking for dials you're already in the hole for over a grover. Damn... Now, I'm not one to skimp on my builds, but this was already staring to look like a money pit even if this is essentially a mid-shelf "budget" version of a Milgauss build LOL. So I put the idea of the build on the back burner for a while and turned my attention back to the gen-dialed 1016 build I'm working on. That is until I saw Slay's sales post with his absolutely STUNNING 6541 franken build. Slay spared no expense, MQ case and dial, gen 1030 movement, gen hands, the works... My jaw hit the ground. It was damn near perfect and now I had to build one. So I re-started my search and began weighing my case and dial options in earnest once again. 

Dial

As luck would have it, a "new" guy had popped up on Instagram about 6 months ago peddling high end rep dials and a few cases, Tonnywatches. I started following him and was pretty impressed with the quality of the dials he was posting; "Vietnam" dials that were, to my eye anyways, on par with or very close in quality (maybe even the same?) to the dials Minh Q offers (some of the better aftermarket dials for many builds imho), but at less than half the price in some instances. I'm always weary of new sellers (who isn't, right?) but his 6541 dial looked an awful lot like MQ's and it cost about 40% of what the MQ dial costs so I said what the hell and pulled the trigger and purchased one.

Looks pretty good to me; the coroner is so-so, but I have a gen white gold dial coronet to replace that one, and I'm might give those lume plots a very understated aging/re-lume. Love the fade on the reddish-pink Milgauss text and the SCOC printing/spacing looks pretty good compared to reference photos of gen dials. Certainly not "perfect" in any sense of the word, but pretty good all things considered and again looks almost identical to the $750 MQ dial. The printing is a little heavy handed and they didn't get the "crippled" R in Perpetual right amongst other minute details, but you really can't beat it for the price. 

Hands

Only one really strong option imho for the 6541's characteristic thunderbolt seconds hand and that's Michael Young at CWP. Looks great and it's long enough to extend into the dial's minute track as per gen. The hour and minute hands, however, are the leaf-shaped hand type with the lume and I want to fit a set of the no lume all-metal "leaf" hands that were also fitted to the 6541. Luckily for me, Offrei offers the near-exact same style hands in an array of sizes and fit for ETA so they'll be compatible with my movement choice and I can get the lengths just right (like a 12.5-13mm minute hand extending into the track like the seconds hand). I'm going to remove the red paint from the thunderbolt tip and age the hands with some sulfur, acids, and some light abrasives. The below reference photo of a gen shows the style, length and aging of the hands I'm going for:

Since I'm using an ETA movement (more on that in a minute) I won't have to broach the hands either (which I have an atrocious track record with). Might have been the easiest sourcing yet: a quick email exchange with Michael, payment sent and hands on their way in a matter of days. Ordered a spattering of differently sized and shaped leaf hands from Offrei. They were so cheap I was able to buy enough that I'll be able to make sure I get the aged look correct and possibly file down a larger sizes minute hand to match the length of the CWP thunderbolt.

Case

When I was going back and forth with Tonny about the dial, I happened to dig a little bit deeper into his Instagram and saw that he actually had a 6541 case set he was offering mixed in amongst the photos of his various small crown, big crown, etc. cases. It looked pretty good in the photo he posted and I already had some experience with one of his 5508 case sets that I had purchased for a friend of mine, so I knew the quality was pretty good and that, generally speaking, his cases were pretty gen-spec. For sure, some modifications would have to be done (lug bevels need some tlc for instance), but again the price was right especially considering the case construction had the correct Farraday cage that is central to getting this build right. All said, case set and dial would cost me less than half of what just a Phong case set would've cost me. So again, I pulled the trigger and asked Tonny for some quick QC pics before making my purchase:

(Photo from Tonnywatches Instagram:)

(QC photos:)

You get the idea... Pretty good if you ask me, but still much work to be done. The dial/cage construction is correct and I'm comfortable re-doing the perlage on the Farraday cage back. The only thing not pictures (which is, in fact, included with the case) is the cross-shaped metal tension "spring" that seats into the inside of the case back and keeps the cage snugly sandwiched together around the movement protecting it from magnetic field variations (well, in theory anyways haha). Other than that, I'll weigh my options on having the mid case re-shaped/thinned and maybe re-do the lug bevels. Should make a good base though for sure... 

Bezel, Insert, Crown, etc.

Some of the finer details of the case set have yet to be seen since I'm still waiting on it to show up from Tonny, but there are some modifications that are inevitable: Gen crown is an easy one,; already have a few various 6mm gen crowns in the parts drawer and a gen 602 tube which are way less problematic than installing a 600 tube which would have been "more" correct for a 6541. No question, a 602 would've been installed during a service however, and requires no broaching/modification prior to install. I picked up a gen T-16 beveled service crystal, and as luck would have it, also happen to have an aftermarket domed T-16 from Phong sitting gathering dust. I love the look of the Milgauss with its domed crystal, but much prefer the practicality of the lower-profile beveled service so it'll be nice to have both should I ever decide to switch between one or the other. The insert that comes with the Tonny case is suspect and I had already acquired a Phong 6541 insert before I got the case, so I'm going to give the Tonny insert some heavy aging for a more worn-in/beat up look for the watch should I ever want it. The Phong insert is pretty spot on; the only thing I might do to it is bleach out the red triangle a little bit and give it a good fade. The bezel ring looks pretty suspect in the QC pictures as well, but I'll have to wait to have it in hand before I can see if it's up to snuff with the shape of the coin edge or if I'll be able to properly age it to give it an older, polished worn-in look. Tonny assured me its plates brass so I'll be able to sand/age/tarnish/polish the bezel and take it down to the brass in what I feel is a more appropriate look for a half-century old watch. If the bezel construction or shape isn't good enough however, I'll just buy one from MQ as I feel his is just a tiny bit better than the one Phong offers and both are pretty solid stand-ins for the genuine article. Yet again neither option is cheap (see a theme developing here?), so I'm hoping the Tonny bezel passes muster. The case should be here in a week so I'll know for certain then. The engravings also look a little iffy in the QC photos, and if they're too are not good enough then hopefully I can send the mid and back to JMB to be re-done. Plenty of bracelet options as I've got both an NDT and Yuki 7206 waiting in the wings and picked up this really nice NOS StyleCraft 20mm tropic rubber strap that I think will look good on either my 1016 or the 6541 for a more subdued look that's still somewhat substantial and fitting for the era of the watch to a certain degree:

 

Movement

As you can see, I've already got a decent amount invested into this build, and as nice as it might be to put a cal. 1030 into a build like this, it just doesn't seem all that practical to me because: a) the Farraday cage covers the movement so you don't see it, b ) sourcing parts and servicing a 1030 movement is becoming increasingly difficult and cost prohibitive, and c) I plan on wearing this watch. A lot. And the ETA 2782 I'm using is far more rough & tumble-ready than the 1030. I found a brand new NOS watch with a 2782 that had been sitting untouched and unused in storage for the last few decades.

It's in really great shape, and after a good cleaning and oiling, will run like a dream. The 2782 has a nice low beat rate, good stem height, good canon pinion height, and the same Kif shock absorbers Rolex would later use in its 1500-series movements so it should be able to handle a fair amount of wear and tear. I got a Yuki 1030 ETA movement ring to make it fit in the case correctly, and one of the only internal modifications I'll need to do is notch out the middle ring of the Farraday cage so the movement clamps can seat the movement in the case properly. The Farraday cage is 3 parts: the interior case back, the middle ring section with a small opening for the winding stem, and the dial (the bottom side of which "completes" the cage by capping over the movement and lining up flush with the middle ring section. Like the Phong dial and cage, the dial has no feet so as long as I can get the cage pieces to line up properly and get the movement with the Yuki adapter seated firmly in the cage install should be relatively painless.

 

All things considered, once I have all the pieces in front of me the assembly will go rather quickly hopefully. I'll update this thread as o go along with each part of the build so hopefully I can glean some insight from others and maybe be the "guinea pig" with one of these Tonny cases (and dial for that matter). 

Stay tuned...

Edited April 27, 2016 by meadowsweet_

[Bart Cordell]

Yes ! I will stay tuned mate.

It's a stunning project. Far out from my poor little budget builds.

I am impressed by the quality of your project.

And Slay's Milgauss is incredible indeed.

[Sogeha]

Very best of luck with this fascinating build. I shall be following with interest.

[hologramet]

Good luck, will follow this build, great "operning post". I really like Reading background, thoughts and future plans!

[ogladio]

Excellent reference for others considering a 6541 project. Looking forward to updates!

[Kime]

Very interesting... I contacted tonny about dials and his prices seemed slightly more than MQs... what price was this dial?

[droptopman]

Really awesome project plan here. You have done your homework. Looking forward to seeing this come together. Clearly a lot of work has already been done.

One of my friends on TRF has a minty black dialed 6541 and it is a beautiful reference. Unique and rarely seen.

Good luck on the rest of the project!

[meadowsweet_]

48 minutes ago, droptopman said:

One of my friends on TRF has a minty black dialed 6541 and it is a beautiful reference. Unique and rarely seen.

So cool! Rarely seen is an understatement I'd say, even trying to source just parts for such a build is getting crazy expensive. I saw a NOS coin edge bezel for a 6541 on VRM for $20K! Good lord!

 

2 hours ago, Kime said:

Very interesting... I contacted tonny about dials and his prices seemed slightly more than MQs... what price was this dial?

Well, the 6541 dials specifically from both MQ and Tonny were more expensive than, say, a "run of the mill" 1680 or 5513 dial. The prices are more inline with Minh's top shelf gilt dials, etc. I believe MQ charges $750 for their Milgauss dial and I paid $300 for the one from Tonny

[automatico]

"Minh Q's case comes in at around $1250 and Phong's around $1800(!) iirc."

"I believe MQ charges $750 for their Milgauss dial and I paid $300 for the one from Tonny"

Imho $750 is a lot of wampum for a fake dial and $1800 is a hellofalot for a fake case (I used the word 'fake' because in reality that is what they are at any price). I could maybe swallow the $$ for a lower buck case and $300 for a high class repdial if the project was worthy of it because legit dial refinishers are charging $200 and over for refinish jobs and most do not look as good as today's better 100% replica dials. You have little choice on high grade replica 6541 cases though.

That being said, in every 'serious' hobby ('serious' = $$) a 'Lunatic Fringe' develops sooner or later. The LF in vintage cars can be seen nightly on TV where middle aged guys with fat wallets bid on cars that will probably end up in another auction to be sold at a loss or be sold to another 'collector' with more $$ than brains. This routine repeats itself until the last widow ends up selling the car at a huge loss just to get it out of the garage. Genuine vintage watch collectors are the same way and the LF have set the prices...but LF watch loonies do not allow replica parts where the car guys do and this makes a BIG difference.

So...when I see $750 replica dials it makes me think a Lunatic Fringe is slowly developing in the repwatch ranks. I could easily have fallen into this trap as Yuki, Phong etc cases, dials and a few assorted genuine parts can soon add up to more than a nice genuine 5513/1680 sold for 8 or 10 years ago so I put the brakes on and decided the high grade vintage repwatch route was not for me. I remember when a brand new 5513 was around $400 and there is no way a beat up example is worth $7k today. I still have a few genuine 15xx movements but have decided it would be better to put them in genuine cases of some sort rather than F-stein projects (while remembering the widow reference). I can picture it now...a yard sale with replicas, F-steins, and genuines all piled together and all $25 each. Still have a few F-steins with genuine movements but will leave them as is for now. All other F-stein projects have been put behind the wall...Phong case/dial 1655, Yuki 5512/5513 etc simply because they are no longer worth the $$ and hassle to me. Etas in Yuki cases with Yuki dials are a possibility though.

I believe meadowsweet is going down a better path because of the choice of an Eta movement but the case and dial will still be a $$ burner although much less so than with the Phong case and dial. Not much choice.

"As you can see, I've already got a decent amount invested into this build, and as nice as it might be to put a cal. 1030 into a build like this, it just doesn't seem all that practical to me because: a) the Farraday cage covers the movement so you don't see it, b ) sourcing parts and servicing a 1030 movement is becoming increasingly difficult and cost prohibitive, and c) I plan on wearing this watch. A lot. And the ETA 2782 I'm using is far more rough & tumble-ready than the 1030."

The 1030 is past its prime and not known to be very rugged so the Eta is a much better choice imho. By going with the lower buck case/dial combo and Eta movement this project is out of the Lunatic Fringe and will make a very good reliable everyday watch. As for my F-steins with genuine 15xx movements...I have to remind myself every time I wear one that these movements are not nearly as rugged as a run of the mill Eta and parts cost too much. I remember reading where some rolex exec said 'a rolex can take anything your arm can take' or something similar. That is pure BS and I have a box of broken rolex movement parts to prove it. I have a box of broken Eta parts too but the Eta box parts will cost maybe $200 to replace where the rolex parts box would probably cost $3k at today's insane eBay prices.

All in all I believe this 6541 project will turn out to be very good and not break the bank. Bookmark it for reference.  

[meadowsweet_]

"I believe meadowsweet is going down a better path because of the choice of an Eta movement but the case and dial will still be a $$ burner although much less so than with the Phong case and dial. Not much choice."

I completely agree with you Rick and thank you for your wealth of insight as always! I'm approaching this as sort of a "Yuki-level" build in regards to price/cost. Hoping this is a more "sane" approach to building a vintage Milgauss, of which there are very few options to embark upon like you said. Proof is in the pudding though, and I'll have to wait and see how good this dial and case set actually is when I get it in hand next week (I'll post up more detailed photos once I do). No question, I took a pretty big gamble buying a somewhat expensive, "untested" case set. But if Tonnywatches really does use the same parts supplier(s) that MQ uses as I suspect, and if Slay's 6541 is any indication, then I might have a pretty decent project on my hands and without spending thousands and thousands of dollars replicating such an obnoxiously rare and expensive vintage reference. Time will tell I guess...

Edited April 28, 2016 by meadowsweet_
Typo

[meadowsweet_]

UPDATE:

Received my case and dial from Tonnywatch today, and I gotta say, the quality is much better than I had expected (especially now in hindsight considering the price), and is IMVHO a very encouraging sign regarding Tonny in general. These parts I'm almost positive are probably  coming from the same source that MQ uses, although I'd hazard a guess that if that true then at the very least it looks like there is another (much higher) level of finishing that goes on with Minh's operation. That said, I've handled my fair share of cases and dials from Minh and the similarities are too numerous, and at times too minute, to ignore. I could be wrong, but take a look at the photos below and please tell me what you think.

Dial first, and it has a bit more sheen than I expected, but overall the printing is very, very nice, and the honeycomb texture is spot-on understated. 

Certeinly not perfect, but as good as I've seen in person no question. It might need some sort of matte treatment if it looks shiny under the crystal and the lume color leaves something to be desired, but the lume mix looks nice and porous so I may just "stain" the lume plots a tiny bit darker should they too look too bright/new once the dial is in the watch. This is a half-century old watch after all, and the hands are going to be aged to the dial should match and neither should look like NOS O reckon  

Only other forseeable change for the dial is swapping out the dial coronet for a gen one, but I'm not so concerned as to risk damaging the dial if the coronet that's on there proves to be too difficult to remove. 

Onto the case... At first glance, I'd say it looks pretty good albeit a little too NOS to be realisticly 50+ years old obviously, but once I get a chance to appropriately age a few parts (very slightly, wearing it will age it plenty quickly enough), it should look the part very well  

The one MAJOR letdown here is the insert. Yikes... But it's getting replaced with a red triangle inset from Phong so no worries there. The coin edge bezel looks ridiculous with its nickel plating shiny and intact, but the bevels and facets on it are decently shaped and the it'll be aged with abrasives and sulfur to expose the brass and soften the edges a bit.

I'd like to hear opinions on the engravings too. To my eye, they're pretty decent: strokes look correct like the short middle stroke of the "E"s, correctly shaped numbers, correct placement, etc. They definitely still look like "fresh" engravings, but I think once they war down a bit from bracelet rub they will soften a bit and look even better

"Registered Design" and "Stainless Steel" are both positioned well, and the serial is correct for a range of non-Brevet 6541s. The case back shape is pretty good, however the case back engravings leave much to be desired...

The lug shape, overall, is quite good; perhaps a little too pointed at the tips, but just barely. The lug bevels kind of suck, but will blend in with the slight case aging or I may just have them re-cut by somone skilled at that, I'm a sucker for beautiful, sharp bevels (à la case restoration) though so who knows haha

 

Now, onto the coolest part of the case, the Farraday cage. The cage is actually three parts. The first part is the back cover which sequesters the movement from the caseback. Although quite ugly on appearance (it should be covered in perlage decoration which I can do myself, very easy to do on a part like this) it is machined perfectly and snaps onto the center ring of the cage tight and flush

The second piece of the cage and they way it's machined is key, and makes using an ETA movement in a gen-spec case like this SUPER easy (I'll explain). First off though, the brass ring is machined perfectly- and I mean PERFECTLY- for the case. It snaps in with a loud "CLICK" and locks into place

Some of the machining work of the cage to take particular note of:

1) the thin channel on the top of the case back side where the cage back snaps on tight to the middle ring.

2) the channel machined into the middle of the ring lines up perfectly with the a 1030->ETA adaptor (more on that in a second) and movement clamps mounted clean and tight on a test fit into the channel flush all the way across the ring onto the plate of the ETA 2782 I have for this project (sturdy and good pinion height for this build imo).

3) on the dial side you can (barely) see the ridge with a slightly smaller ID than the rest of ring - this is where the dial sits and the thin ring on the back of the dial nestles inside of this ridge to seat properly over the movement; the surprisingly gen-like construction of the Tonny dial is critical (kudos to whomever made this dial. The construction of it is quite impressive). No dial feet and the thin brass ring on the back of the dial as per a gen 6541 dial (the dial thus creates the top "cap" of the cage")

Now about that movement ring/spacer. I was super hesitant to drop $50 on Yuki's ETA adaptor ring for cal. 1030 movements/cases and I don't have a lathe so regretfully I cannot make my own. I had heard dismal things about Yuki's, most notably that they were super thin and flimsy and snap at the drop of a hat. Not to mention that anyone I had heard of using one had mentioned the need to modify it in some way or another. So after some email reassurances from Yuki that these were "new" movement rings, I gambled and bought one. Turns out they are WAY better than the old ones used to be. Much, much thicker/sturdier, machined to an accurate diameter (both inner and outer) and has the proper "step" machined into the dial side to accommodate the dial and Farraday cage ring. Lines up perfect with the dial and sits flush on the back side of the inner lip of the cage ring in the case. Again, lining up perfectly with the channel for movement clamps; absolutely no modification needed. 

Lastly, the hole for the tube is high just like gen, and the stem lined up very well through both the case and the cage  only downside is I can't seem to get a gen 6020 tube to screw in properly so it looks like I'll have to re-tap the case. The opening seems to be the correct size, but the pitch of the threads just doesn't seem to match up. Another pretty easy "fix" and small potatoes considering everything else. 

So now I'm just waiting on a few more pieces to show up and I can get this thing assembled and see what else I need to do to it. I'm waiting on a hands set from Michael Young at CWP (best "lightning bolt" seconds hand you can get imvho) and I'm experimenting with some cheap-o dauphine hands from Offrei since they look correct (faceted properly and I can get the correctly sized 13mm minutes hand) for this iteration of Milgauss with its no-lume plain hands. CWP's hands are good enough (for an ETA build like this at least) but I don't want to have to deal with broaching them so I hope I can get the Offrei hands to look right. And still need to order that red triangle insert from Phong (well, Phong's son Jensen actually. Great guy...) but once I get those two things, I think the remainder of acquisition/assembly should fly!

[Bart Cordell]

Wow ! That will be an incredible watch my friend. Can't wait to see it on your wrist. And what a review !

Thank you for sharing.

[ogladio]

Think you have an epic 6541 en route!

[droptopman]

Great review. This is going to be something very special. Look forward to more posts.

[Kime]

Love this. Great pics... and thanks for sharing the build details. Can I ask the cost of the case with engraving?

[slay]

Looks fantastic  I agree, MQ, NDT and Tonny seem to have the same supplier. Not sure about Phong though, his parts are better but also worse in some aspects.

How much did you pay for the case & dial?

 

Don't get the red triangle insert from Phong/Jensen, you can get the exact same insert for 20$ from WSO (I also only found out after the fact). Some of Phongs parts are the same as WSO (like Phongs Hand-Set for the 6541, which sucks!)

[meadowsweet_]

@slay

The WSO insets seem to have incorrect numbers on the red triangle insert I could find (4 is too fat) but everything else looks ok. Do they have more than one? Maybe I'm missing something. Under a grand for the case and dial so I'm pleased with that. At this point, is stick to Tudors and Daytonas from Phong, but then again, the Daytona cases seem to be hit or miss nowadays. 

[hologramet]

21 hours ago, slay said:

Looks fantastic  I agree, MQ, NDT and Tonny seem to have the same supplier. Not sure about Phong though, his parts are better but also worse in some aspects.

How much did you pay for the case & dial?

 

Don't get the red triangle insert from Phong/Jensen, you can get the exact same insert for 20$ from WSO (I also only found out after the fact). Some of Phongs parts are the same as WSO (like Phongs Hand-Set for the 6541, which sucks!)

@slay.. Do you mean the cases or cases and dials etc. Why I ask is that we had a little "difference" when you were selling some 6538 dial (?... I think) from MQ and I thought it was ridiculously similar to one from tonny. But you were very persistent it wasn't that way. Having paid serious dineros for it I understand you. And you being more skilled with the vintage rolexes, I accepted your opinion and took is at a fact. Is it still that way? That some parts are different between them?

[slay]

16 hours ago, meadowsweet_ said:

@slay

The WSO insets seem to have incorrect numbers on the red triangle insert I could find (4 is too fat) but everything else looks ok. Do they have more than one? Maybe I'm missing something. Under a grand for the case and dial so I'm pleased with that. At this point, is stick to Tudors and Daytonas from Phong, but then again, the Daytona cases seem to be hit or miss nowadays. 

Not sure if I had raffles or WSO (raffles is 15$), but it was identical to what I got from Phong. The 6541 handset I initially got from Phong was the same as WSO (=[censored]) and when I asked him about it (because it didn't look like anything in the pictures on his site), he said he isn't making all parts himself and is getting some from other vendors.

 

1 hour ago, hologramet said:

@slay.. Do you mean the cases or cases and dials etc. Why I ask is that we had a little "difference" when you were selling some 6538 dial (?... I think) from MQ and I thought it was ridiculously similar to one from tonny. But you were very persistent it wasn't that way. Having paid serious dineros for it I understand you. And you being more skilled with the vintage rolexes, I accepted your opinion and took is at a fact. Is it still that way? That some parts are different between them?

The cases look very similar to me, but the finishing is different (like someone mentioned). I don't think either Minh or Tonny makes these cases, it must be some supplier in Vietnam. Perhaps they hold the same case supplier to different standards, I dont know.

What I can tell you for sure though is that my 6538 Dial from Minh has different fonts than Tonny Dials. The lacquer also looks different to me, the gilt effect is slightly different. If they are using the same dial maker, I would assume they each use their own templates and may ask for the maker to use different dial plates and/or lacquers to make these dials. For example, the depth rating: Tonny has a long squarish looking 6 and my Minh dial is using a round 6, very similar to the red 6 below.

[automatico]

"The cases look very similar to me, but the finishing is different (like someone mentioned). I don't think either Minh or Tonny makes these cases, it must be some supplier in Vietnam."

High grade cases...this is one mystery that the insiders really keep a lid on. Maybe someone will spill a few beans sooner or later.

Something I have always wondered about the high grade replica cases is what do the case 'detailers' start out with? I call them 'detailers' because I seriously doubt they have the means or inclination to stamp out case and case back blanks, thread them, and shape them to a starting point. I will always suspect they start out with standard cases of some sort, maybe even cartel cases in many instances, then modify them to a higher quality fit and finish. After seeing what JMB, debane, and a few others can do, there is little doubt (in my twisted mind) that this is probably how it is done. I also believe MBW/MBK cases are just common cases finished closer to oem specs than average cases. For anyone talented enough to do the case work and interested in trying to turn a $50 cartel case into a $1500 'show dog' case, the case numbers and letters are the main stumbling block, especially the stamped letters/numbers inside the case back.

 

[slay]

For what it's worth, the stamping inside the case back of any case is not like GEN-like gen is much thicker, embossed almost like military dog tags. The Vietnam cases are all skinny font embossed or engraved.

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