Dealing with Phong

[Blindpirat]

Sad but true..


Sent from Hell

[RickFlorida]

True, but technology exponentially makes things easier and cheaper.   Escaping earth's gravity was a bad example on my part.   There is no cheap way to escape gravity.

 

I should have said computers, 3d printing, stereographic cameras, 3d modeling software.....etc...are all cheaper and easier to use.

[automatico]

"But if I understand, even the new cartel needs a good deal of shaping to be right.  The body/lugs need slimming, and is missing a beveled edge.  The crown guards are still not perfect, and there are probably other issues as well.  Asking the source to fix this will not work.  And 1200 dollar phongs are not consistent."

True.  I figure an out of spec $225 cartel case needing modification is a better value than an out of spec $1200 case that needs modification.  I would rather botch the $225 case if I screw up.

The Frankenstein 1680 that I wear now and then is in a DW case and the rounded case sides really bothered me until I saw a 'high mileage' genuine 1680 with rounded case sides on the 'net that looks just like it.  Now I can enjoy the DW for what it is...a replica that has a genuine counterpart out there somewhere.  Ha! 

Here is another one with rounded sides for only $10599:  eBay item number  232075838151  The DW case looks better.

[Revere]

19 hours ago, imajedi said:

 

Great info. Could you CMM the case?

 

That's a great question. The short answer is yes. The long answer is yes, but a faro arm or something similar would cost a lot of money! That's one piece of equipment I don't have access to anymore since I have left my previous place of employment for a while. 

 

15 hours ago, highoeyazmuhudee said:

ive 3D printed a lot of cases, the resolution is not there and i was never impressed with the results. its unusable for refining anything at this scale. a 3d printer is essentially a glorified glue gun

I have an ultra high resolution 3D printer with 0.025mm resolution in Z axis and 0.005" resolution in X-Y axis. That's pretty good at printing... It's on my desk right now, printing a case for a custom watch. 

[imajedi]

I have an ultra high resolution 3D printer with 0.025mm resolution in Z axis and 0.005" resolution in X-Y axis. That's pretty good at printing... It's on my desk right now, printing a case for a custom watch. 

Lot's of places offer CMM. Let's just pay someone to CMM a case, clean up the file, and then CNC copies for us.

[Sogeha]

2 hours ago, Revere said:

 

 

I have an ultra high resolution 3D printer with 0.025mm resolution in Z axis and 0.005" resolution in X-Y axis. That's pretty good at printing... It's on my desk right now, printing a case for a custom watch. 

I for one would love to see a thread on that even if it's not a replica watch it would still be facinating to see

[Revere]

5 hours ago, Sogeha said:

I for one would love to see a thread on that even if it's not a replica watch it would still be facinating to see

I'll be posting details on this when it's done (the coming weeks). It uses a gilt dial that was made using a method I invented myself.

[occb2]

Is this still about dealing with Phong?  

 

Phong is by far the best case we can get for our hobby.  I know TC is cheaper.  I know TC is great.  But that is one watch.  I can tell you holding a TC case and a phong case together is completely a difference in the quality.

 

TC had caught up on a lot.  Bevel edges.  The new bezel, I can't wait to see.  But if we start looking at 5513 and 1680 and daytona.  We don't have much choice and I don't want them.  

 

Cartel cases are few and far between.  At least the ones that meant anything.  The newer ones are far off.  Now I don't understand the anti Phong.  Phong is a bit of an old pain a lot of the time but I can't think of one time he has not come through in repair.  One time he was flying out that evening and got a case sent to me next day.  He has made mistakes, but who hasn't.  Heck I ordered a TC case and it took two months to get and when I got it the lugs were a joke.  One was half the size of the other and the top had the same issue.  I brought it up to him and it took another two months to come back with a case almost as bad.

Phong is a lot.  He has the machinery and he has the knowledge.  His son is amazing.  That is who I have been using.  My last 16800, 1680, 5513 X2, and my new daytona are all coming from him.  He has not let me down and he is a gentleman to talk with.  Never leaves you wondering then bam the case is there.  He lets you know every step of the way.  Is it pricey.  Yes.  If I buy a $25,000 C and C machine.  Spend or have an employee spend hours to soften the case, I am not selling it for $500.  I do believe that the prices are high but if your like me and everything else besides the case is going to be Rolex, I sure in heck want a case that will water seal and work as a real one will. 

 

I Have been luck to find a real 16700 case and a 16800 and a 16610 case on ebay.  Yea they were crazy prices.  I think the least costly one was the 16800 one and it was $1700.  Not far from what phong charges.  But it they were available every day then Phong would be out of business.  

 

Also to ease mines. I have a buddy here in Orange county that took his Sub to get serviced by a Rolex Watchmaker.  The store no longer is a rolex dealer but the watch maker is still a rolex watch maker.  He serviced his sub with a Phong case.  No issue.  I told him he was nuts and that he was going to get it taken and everything.  $650 dollars later.  He has a beautiful 16610 polished and everything.  So Just saying.  They are good at what they do and I will continue to use them. If you would like to spend $350 on a Cartel if you can still find one of the old Cartels go for it.  Its a great case.  That is the best thing of this hobby.  We can all do what we want how we want.  Take a Invicta case and mold it to a sub case.  If it looks good.  It looks good.  But to blast a dealer we have here and someone who helps a lot of us.  Its just wrong.  IMO.  

[slay]

I spoke to a watch parts re-seller in China about a custom case order and he got in touch with a factory that previously made a high quality Vintage Rlx Case that he sold. I asked this particular guy, because I bought a good case from him at a good price and the case-back is the first one I've owned where my Rolex Oyster Opener fits like a glove (maybe just coincidence ) . The "MONTRES ROLEX..." embossing on the inside is also very good and better than on other 1000$+ cases that I've seen.

Here is what I gathered so far:

• Minimum Order Quantity is 100 Cases, though it will be cheaper if a bigger order is placed (they normally do bigger production runs than 100).
• The factory needs 3D Scans or Drawings. For best results, they also need a genuine sample case. 
• They have experience making oyster watch cases and they do full detailing on the case (and assembly if crown/tube/pushers are part of the case) - not just simple CNC'ing.
• I don't have a price/case yet. My contact said the factory needs 3D Scans or Drawings for a proper price quotation. I will see if I can get at least a ball-park figure for a run of 100, 200 and 500 cases without the 3D Scans. 
• Based on pricing I could negotiate for a single case that he had in stock, I'd estimate that a run of ~100 Cases can be realized for 100$ or less per case (excl. the cost of 3D Scanning!).

Can I see a show of hands who is interested in pursuing this further? What I mean is: Willing to share the upfront investment & work involved and aware of the risks involved (I've been around for 10 years and the majority of member projects which involved more than a datewheel turned to shit in one way or another).

Where were we on the topic of 3D Scanning? Is there only this one company that takes 1000$ for case scan, or did someone have a scanner at work or otherwise accessible (or know of a cheaper vendor)?

 

@paristoto (as FYI)

[Blindpirat]

I'm in!


Sent from Hell

[ww12345]

Heck, why not.


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[imajedi]

I spoke to a watch parts re-seller in China about a custom case order and he got in touch with a factory that previously made a high quality Vintage Rlx Case that he sold. I asked this particular guy, because I bought a good case from him at a good price and the case-back is the first one I've owned where my Rolex Oyster Opener fits like a glove (maybe just coincidence ) . The "MONTRES ROLEX..." embossing on the inside is also very good and better than on other 1000$+ cases that I've seen.

Here is what I gathered so far:

• Minimum Order Quantity is 100 Cases, though it will be cheaper if a bigger order is placed (they normally do bigger production runs than 100).
• The factory needs 3D Scans or Drawings. For best results, they also need a genuine sample case. 
• They have experience making oyster watch cases and they do full detailing on the case (and assembly if crown/tube/pushers are part of the case) - not just simple CNC'ing.
• I don't have a price/case yet. My contact said the factory needs 3D Scans or Drawings for a proper price quotation. I will see if I can get at least a ball-park figure for a run of 100, 200 and 500 cases without the 3D Scans. 
• Based on pricing I could negotiate for a single case that he had in stock, I'd estimate that a run of ~100 Cases can be realized for 100$ or less per case (excl. the cost of 3D Scanning!).

Can I see a show of hands who is interested in pursuing this further? What I mean is: Willing to share the upfront investment & work involved and aware of the risks involved (I've been around for 10 years and the majority of member projects which involved more than a datewheel turned to [censored] in one way or another).

Where were we on the topic of 3D Scanning? Is there only this one company that takes 1000$ for case scan, or did someone have a scanner at work or otherwise accessible (or know of a cheaper vendor)?

 

@paristoto (as FYI)

Per this thread, 3D scanning won't work for this. An expert in the field told us they are not accurate enough.

[hologramet]

I would definitely be interested in "investing" in RWG-crowd funded case(s) 

[bobandshawn]

I would contribute.

 

B

 

 

[slay]

Per this thread, 3D scanning won't work for this. An expert in the field told us they are not accurate enough.

And the factory which actually makes these cases said that's what they need to make a case (as per my message)


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[Revere]

I'm game to help out in any way. It's surprising to me that the factory wants to use 3D scans because I've never ever had any success with applications like this. That said, if that's what they ask for, then that's what they ask for. I would defer to them since they're the ones that will be making the damn cases  

[automatico]

Decide what model you want (I vote for 5512/13), get a few samples from the maker, pick the best one, and go from there with minor changes if needed.  Starting from scratch leaves too much room for miscommunication and error imho.

What to look for:  Holes in lugs not too close to ends, top or bottom edge (especially if they need to be drilled out)...oem specs on crystal neck, case tube threads, dial window/dial seat, all bezel parts, case back etc...Decide if to be made for ETA 2824, 2836 or rolex 1520/70 or 1575 date...If made for  ETA 2824, the rolex 1520 will be a close fit provided the case is machined for the larger 12.5 ligne rolex movement (ETA 2824/2836 is 11.5 ligne)...If made for ETA 2836, the rolex 1575 date movement will be a close fit...If the case is made for a 12.5 ligne movement, a spacer can be used with an ETA.

...or you could just get them to remake the standard MBK 5512/13/1680 case with proper specs inside the case.  Read the MBK sticky above for details.

There are a LOT of details to be attended to before ordering cases.  I figure they should go for about $100 each because you can buy a new complete cartel watch with 21J movement, bracelet and all for a little over twice that much.

Get a firm price up front or be prepare to get robbed.  A friend had private label watches made in China (cases/bracelets/dials from China with swiss ETA movements) and I heard all about how hard it is to do business over there.  He finally had to hire an 'insider' from Switzerland to travel back and forth and make all the arrangements.

[Ezio]

[censored] guys just read all of This my old firm i sold sometime ago use solidworks and er have our own CNC' machines 

 

i could probabaly turn in a favor and have a prototype made if we Would have some who could make The last finish just to try out The cnc idea ?? 

[Revere]

I'd also like to mention that I am willing to lend my ultra high res 3D printer to the cause. if folks end up with SolidWorks models they would like to print before talking to manufacturers about metal prototypes, I am happy to make that happen. This would likely save us a large amount of money in research & development.

That said, resin is expensive, but I am willing to eat the cost of printing if the SolidWorks model looks promising (as far down the line as that may be)  

Edited September 21, 2016 by Revere

[Sogeha]

I will support an RWG crowd fund project. My hand is up.

[occb2]

I am in but for a 167XX case.  I have a few of them that I want to build.  We have 5513 and 1680 cases that are Gen spec already.  MWB, phong.  We have the 16800 and 16610 between Phong/jensen and TC and some WM9's floating around.  We NEED something not done before.  If not.  I will work on it by myself.  

 

I still don't see giving my case as a mold and paying for 5 movements up front in the tune of $1200-$1300 each.  To me they are asking me to pay for it all and they will have the mold to do as many as they want to on my dime.  Nit cool..

[surgcmdr@yahoo.com]

I'll invest in laser scanner and cnc perfect vintage case sterile only don't want legal trouble by contract only for investment. Easy to sell

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so this just got more interesting. The company I am talking to already has a 3D scan of the daytona case. Now Im trying to convince them to sell us the file but because it was done for another customer, they have proprietary right to it. He is going to check and see if the other party is willing to sell it to us.
But again this is for the daytona.

Im in for this how much is to make on e case with cnc

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"Yeah but aren't there pretty good cases that can be modified into a pretty good 5513? I thought MBW cases and even the new cartels were pretty good except for the crown guards and some other finishing details. 1675 cases are all way to thick and that's something that's not easily fixed."
I say the best way (low $$) is to use what is available and forget about trying to have cases made.  If you are not versed in the ins and outs of case making, the learning curve may be very steep and expensive.  Case and case back threads are not easy at all to cut for example and someone who is a whiz at cnc machining/shaping a case may be lost when it comes to cutting threads.  Mirror polishing case sides and bevels on lugs are probably also not in the cnc machinist bailiwick.  These cases look simple but they are not.  A $50 replica submariner case may be the product of a $5 million operation that makes cases for swiss oem, mushroom brands, contract watches etc as well as replicas.  The steel replica submariner cases that were used in some $75 replicas that I have are stamped 'E. Gluck' inside the case and E. Gluck is a HUGE outfit.  Take my word for it.  Or not.
http://egluck.com/
Otoh, if someone wants 1000 cases, fly to Guangzhou and shop around for a connection to have them made...pay your $$...and take your chances.  I have a friend who used to have private brand watches made so I know what I am talking about.  More or less.
Imho what members should be looking for are:    1...An affordable case that is close to begin with.    2...Someone who can detail the case, drill lug holes, machine a proper case tube seat etc at a reasonable cost.    3...Someone who can engrave letters/numbers that are accurate to oem.
I hate to be a downer but above all...I am a realist.        Sorta.

Can't cnc do all that thread tube threads just better to make mid case not to get pounded by rolex lawyers. This would be the easiest to sell in the west to do this with all correct marking take an international lawyer shell companies probably a Bahamas holding company. And more lawyers to hide owners of the hallmarked cases. If not there to over see daily work case will be stolen and lose tons of money. Need Chinese or vietnamese Korean manager to do engravings I'd only do cnc here and shop them out there for hallmarkss. Too dangerous. That's would I do or just go cash for guy to do here but definitely not sell from USA.

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[surgcmdr@yahoo.com]

I spoke to a watch parts re-seller in China about a custom case order and he got in touch with a factory that previously made a high quality Vintage Rlx Case that he sold. I asked this particular guy, because I bought a good case from him at a good price and the case-back is the first one I've owned where my Rolex Oyster Opener fits like a glove (maybe just coincidence ) . The "MONTRES ROLEX..." embossing on the inside is also very good and better than on other 1000$+ cases that I've seen.
Here is what I gathered so far:

• Minimum Order Quantity is 100 Cases, though it will be cheaper if a bigger order is placed (they normally do bigger production runs than 100).
• The factory needs 3D Scans or Drawings. For best results, they also need a genuine sample case. 
• They have experience making oyster watch cases and they do full detailing on the case (and assembly if crown/tube/pushers are part of the case) - not just simple CNC'ing.
• I don't have a price/case yet. My contact said the factory needs 3D Scans or Drawings for a proper price quotation. I will see if I can get at least a ball-park figure for a run of 100, 200 and 500 cases without the 3D Scans. 
• Based on pricing I could negotiate for a single case that he had in stock, I'd estimate that a run of ~100 Cases can be realized for 100$ or less per case (excl. the cost of 3D Scanning!).

Can I see a show of hands who is interested in pursuing this further? What I mean is: Willing to share the upfront investment & work involved and aware of the risks involved (I've been around for 10 years and the majority of member projects which involved more than a datewheel turned to [censored] in one way or another).
Where were we on the topic of 3D Scanning? Is there only this one company that takes 1000$ for case scan, or did someone have a scanner at work or otherwise accessible (or know of a cheaper vendor)?
 
[mention=49675]paristoto[/mention] (as FYI)

Thousand dollars is not that much I'll pay it for the rights just lend me a case

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[occb2]

Are you talking about Daytona cases?  Where are you located?

 

Also I believe that the 16610 case can be copied legally.  Its the engraving that makes it illegal.  I know startime legally sells replacement cases.  Rolex will never touch it but at this point I am so disappointed in Rolex USA that I dont care if they touch any of my watches.  I just built a 116710 with all real parts from the case to the replacement 3186 movement and rolex inspected it and certified it and it is now registered too me under the serial number of the case.  It is a long story.

 

I make watches all the time with aftermarket cases.  I use to love TC cases and probably till today the best case I owned was brought right here on RWG and it was a TC case that was worked.  Spitting image of a rolex 16610 case.  

 

 

[surgcmdr@yahoo.com]

Yes selling fake hallmark case in the west can cost millions in fines and legal fees. Sterile cases with fake sn is fine just no model number or orig rolex design. Cant touch sellers in the East. I'll go in partial for 3d scan fee with partial rights. Trial run with usa cnc company they plenty of those even Chinese cnc Co. See the cost are results. Cost not too crazy for for 20 cases. The machining I'm clueless

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