Little White Lies We're Supposed To Tolerate?

[Pugwash]

When a dealer sells you a "1:1" or "Perfect" watch with a "Synthetic Sapphire" crystal and a "Lemania" or "Asian ETA" movement, what are you actually getting?

These are amongst the most common lies told by dealers. It's a war of escalation where one dealer mislabels something and then the others have to follow suite or else have a product that's perceived as inferior. Well, it's time, as a community, to stop the [censored]. We're here to stop people getting scammed, right? Yet we tolerate some lies because we assume people will realise the dealers are just using marketing language.

Here's the truth: There is not a single replica available from any of our dealers with a Lemania movement. Asian ETA movements, as sold in the new generation of reps, are not ETA movements at all. There is simply no perfect 1:1 replica of a Rolex Sub. The term Synthetic Sapphire should mean real, lab-grown Sapphire as found in genuine Rolexes, Omegas and the likes, but in some dealers cases, they use it to mean Mineral Glass, as used by bloody Timex.

I'd hate to have to ask every time I bought a watch if what they advertised was truthful or mere advertising, so please try to convince your friendly dealers (It's mostly Josh and Trusty, the most prolific sellers here, that use these lies with abandon) to stop bullshitting us. Using words like Ultimate or Best Ever is understandable, it's the usual hyperbole required to show your newer model is better than the last, but perfect and 1:1 mean something absolute.

They're getting worse and it's time to stop.

I'd love to hear your opinions on how we can deal with it, but we need to do something as just telling the dealers hasn't worked for me..

[Guest TTK]

I've been collecting reps for over 20 years....and have yet to see an 'Ultimate' rep.......I've never had any 1:1 reps either....so I never describe them as such......where I used 'synthetic sapphire' in older ads...to mean exactly that...sapphire.......I now use the words 'genuine' sapphire .....same with movements.......without opening EVERY watch and investigating the mech.....I can't tell where the bloody thing is made.....they could be made by schoolkids in Kambi Bolongo for all I know.....and truthfully...I don't care......as long as the hands go round reguarly and let me know when it's time for G&T cocktails and dinner...who gives a [censored].....I now use the term....'Asian clone'....!

The best movement I've found so far is this one.....!

[colinmgzt]

I think you have voiced the opinion that many on the forum have , but are perhaps loathe to

bring to the board in fear of upsetting their favourite dealer.

However, as long as we have no ability to physically view and handle the pieces before purchase

we are always going to be at the mercy of the dealers and will have to rely on their honesty.

The question is, is it out and out false advertising, or, a case of being economical with the truth to gain an

edge over a competitor

Also we have to bear in mind that at the end of the day, these are reps.

Nobody wants to part with their hard earned cash and recieve goods "not as described" but truth is, what can we do?

we could start sending purchases back, stop buying, start a new board section to list purchases, and dealers supplying

goods not as described. where do you start? We on the board dont have the buying power to force change, representing but a small

fraction of the business these guys do.

The trend seems to be for more and more accurate reps and I think it must be down to each individual as to what is acceptable

with regards to item description compared to item recieved, there is always the option to return to sender.

I agree with your point , but I think the onus is on us, as buyers to start returning mis-described items, if it

happens often enough and long enough, it may forcr the dealers into change.

[AMK000]

Why you came up this now ???  

Anything particular happened ???

I think we all (or most of us ) undertstand their terms and what is behind them.

We all know that the movements are all CHN copies (and in most cases not identical ones). We all know the the crystal is not a true saphire and the AR coating is in many cases not present.

So as long as we understand what we order  ... let them wright what they want. 

If there is something new or exotic .... we can always ask them for further details.

To my inderstanding they are not selling only to us but they also sell to the mass market. So I dont belive that they will accept to change the wording and terms on their sites.

[elprimerozen]

I agree with you friend...but the help we can get..and i mean the REAL help on identifing an asia movement or a synthetic crystal or or asia,swiss: 6497 or calibers with mods from asia...will be coming from US to US...we can not expect the dealers to say everithing...this simply can not be done,and for sure i think its impossible to change the title on the watches that ALL and i mean ALL our dealers sell.The only solution for us to find out the truth in every litle new trick that all the dealers can think..is by just making conversation in the forum!!! Thinks will always be the same!Get rich or die trying..simple as that.

[cornerstone]

I'm all for this one. It isn't difficult to call a spade a spade at all. I have sensed the BS creeping up a bit of late - I think the forum should stand up for those that are the first buyers of a watch and then get a surprise - "oops did I say ETA, I meant an Asian movement you've never heard of".

What I'm saying is - dealers need to be called out on it if buyers are not getting the right information.

[FxrAndy]

I fully agree with Pugwash, I started the thread about the ETA copy movement here to try to highlight the way that the dealers are labeling things with the words like ETA and so on. I am sure everyone would be far happyer with the truth, IE seagul ST18, not ETA 2892!

Please everyone put your suport behind this one!

Dealers please take note!

People wont stop buying you products just because you are telling it like it is, infact they will buy more as they will be sure of what they are getting. If they bought a watch that was advertised with Sinthetic Saphire and it scratched just like mineral glass, they will be less likly to belive what you list in the future!

[By-Tor]

I agree with Puggy. Why call Seagull movement "Lemania" when it has absolutely nothing to do with Lemania? It's complete misrepresentation. It's not just Josh and Andrew... pretty much all dealers still call it "Lemania" and lie to the newbies. It's ironic... the Seagull ST-19 is hands down the best chrono movement in reps so there wouldn't be any reason to mislead people.

It would be the same thing as selling ETA movement as "genuine Rolex movement"... or plated watch as "solid gold". I completely agree with the mineral/sapphire thing too. If the watch has mineral crystal you simply don't call it "sapphire". That's lying... or at least blatant misleading... plain and simple. Telling the truth should never be "optional", even for the best and most trusted dealers.

I don't know what's the new "Asian ETA" but it sounds fishy to me... especially if the bph is just "upgraded" from the old 21J.

[elprimerozen]

For me everithing is made in Asia(movements,parts)...the only think i can do for my self is try to find the best asia watch.All is asia for me again.

[chad]

I agree 100 percent. Something that was said to me by one of our top dealers after my first order was when I complained about such things and shipping times....

he said " this is an illegal buisness, there are no guarantees of anything"

For me everithing is made in Asia(movements,parts)...the only think i can do for my self is try to find the best asia watch.All is asia for me again.

[Watchmeister]

You guys ever watch infomercials or read some of the ridiculous advertisements in your newspaper? "Want to lose 20 pounds in 3 5 days?" Our product can erase off of your face.", etc. And this type of advertising is for legal items.

IMHO, this is no different. Here and at TRC we actually have some accountability as long as folks continue to review what they receive or write about particularly bad products or service. Would it be nice if everyone gave a 100% description? Yes. But I don't view this as widespread abuse by any means. Irrespective of better and worse descriptions or inaccuracies by dealers this forum is ultimately what makes our whole obsession work reasonably well irrespective of what is written. We tolerate the white lies because irrespective of what is written our dealers are fundamentally honest and provide better service than many folks selling legal items and because we have the fabulous safety net called RWI. We all forget about the Global Swiss Replicas of the World. How many black market items can you comparatively price and form a forum to promote the "sport" and help and protect the membership?

One last point, there is nothing to stop us from PM'ing or emailing any dealer before we buy. With perhaps one exception I am sure you will get an honest answer. Besides the detective work makes the whole thing more fun.

[Guest aclaimsman]

Excellent post Pug, I totally agree with you. If a dealer wishes to sell here, his or her advertisements should be straight forward and honest. Not 10, 20, 50% honest, but 100% all the time. I for one have purchased two watches from TTK as I believe he sells exactly what he advertises, as for some of the other dealers I have dealt with, not so. All this mumbo jumbo from certain dealers(you know who you are), 1:1 this, sapphire this is a bunch of Crap! Come on dealers, get with it tell us what you sell “honestly”. Also, I would like to here from some of the dealers and their take on this thread.

Steve

[Usil]

Can we have some standards of descriptions agreed upon on this forum? Accurately describing the movement and whether the crystals are saphire or not should be ground zero basics for our dealers. True saphire is not mineral glass and synthetic saphire which all watch saphire crystals are is also not mineral glass since they are created using a manufactured process, has got to be straightened out. Accurate descriptions of the watches is not going to deter any one of us from buying them - not one - and it will go along ways is reestablishing our dealers credibility. This is one of the reasons I appreciate Neil's handling and inspection of his watches before he ships. I rely on this.

So, here is the first standards I propose:

1. Synthetic Saphire = Manufatured Saphire crystals

2. Mineral Glass = Mineral Glass

3. 1 to 1 = Means that Gen parts will fit in the watch - MINIMALLY this means crowns, crystals and the watch dial are directly replacable with Gen parts.

Please continue the list as I am not an expert on the movements.

Usil

Edited January 20, 2007 by Usil

[mossanti]

Agree 100%..They love to write something like that to get more money..marketting strategy to grab the new comer...well..why need to put standard if the soul dealers dont have the'value' of doing the right things...

Alll nowadays is China copy..not asian copy...China Copy more like it ..

[fotoman]

Kruzer has some good points.

Is a rolex one of the finest time pieces available?- is it advertised that way? Look there maybe certain things that go to far, i think calling a segull movement an ETA is wrong, i have said so on the other threads like this. But, on some of the other "little white lies" - we may be too demanding. This is an illegal business and the fact of the matter is we are LUCKY that we just have the little white lies. we are LUCKY that these dealers stick around and constantly get us the newest and best reps. 90 percent of the reps in the world are cheap fake rolexs- i'm sure there are other ways to make money in this business as opposed to selling what these guys sell. I suppose that they could go open up Super Swiss Stores and sell the reps for 700. it doesn't take too many sales at, lets say - scammer george's - rates to make up the differences.

We are lucky that they continue to serve the board and don't take in a big load of cash and run away - as some have in the past - we are lucky they communicate with us and particpate in our forum. - and were lucky that they continue to take the chances and the [censored] that goes along with selling reps to newbs - we are all newbs once.

Synthetic saphire- doesn't bother me to much - everyone should know that there is no such thing as 1:1 its one of the motto's of the forum - there is no perfect rep- 1:1 by the way was an Eddie Lee thing back when trusty only sold asian movements and josh barely advertised.

as i have also said before with regards to the use of the term "swiss" these guys also sell to people that are not us. They have to keep the terms on their site competative to the other crap thats out there in the ether.

and believe me they accentuate the positive and play down the negative - i recently got a sub for a friend, i thought the dial looked ok in the photo - i'm no expert - i got it and it was AWEFUL, i checked, same dial in the photo - why didn't i notice it? Cause the M-M line up was covering the M's- on purpose no doubt

I think there should definatly be some accountability that the boards hold to the dealers - i think there should be no wiggle room at ALL with the movements - that is what were paying the extra money for - some of the other 1:1 - or "perfect" thats just sales "puffying" and remember, these guys are out to make a living - not run a charity service.

you have to keep in mind the big picture - we get a great product that is generally truthful - i got awatch for another friend who had bad experiences with canal street - i said don't worry this won't be a dud, these dealers will stand behind the watches. - at first he thought his new one was a dud - he wanted to "return" it, - i said you can't, this isn't Macy's but if its broken we can get it fixed.

-- The "perfect" rep is the one that brings enjoyment -

[archibald]

I agree with Puggy. Why call Seagull movement "Lemania" when it has absolutely nothing to do with Lemania? It's complete misrepresentation. It's not just Josh and Andrew... pretty much all dealers still call it "Lemania" and lie to the newbies.

I don't know what's the new "Asian ETA" but it sounds fishy to me... especially if the bph is just "upgraded" from the old 21J.

LOL! 'Cause ,like, three threads, pug still doesn't get that there is just accepted industry jargon that predates most of our involvement w/ the rep boards dispite it's inaccuracy: Lemania, Synthetic Sapphire, etc. Ain't never gonna change, and they're not really that misleading a)because most people already know what they mean, b)noobs will run accross dozens of threads that clarify these issues if they bother to search, and most imbortantly, they're used to denote specific parts not subjectively indicate quality or accuracy.

1:1, Ultimate, and Perfect are a whole different matter. I've been bitching about the use of these terms from their initial, stupid, and dishonest appearances. And the

OP is right..dispite their honesty in their transactions, Jos and Andrew continue to call things 1:1 that aren't even close to it. As far as "ultimate," I guess anyone can call anything the "ultimate" but since it's such a vague word it strikes me as pretty dopey to use it in marketing copy. Unless a movement is not made by ETA, S.A. calling it an ETA is an outright lie.

But Andy and Jos: Until Bell & Ross starts using fake screws on the backs of their watches, for example, can you please stop calling your reps 1:1 until they are?

[HauteHippie]

Ohhhhh the irony.

[SportsterRider]

I'm new to the board, but not to reps. Over the years, I've seen some pretty lousy reps describes as 100% accurate, and some outstanding reps as well. In every case though, NONE of them were 100% accurate. I've purchased reps that had a "perfect" dial only to have a terrible cyclops. I've had reps with a perfect case, but a horrible dial or band.

For me, all I want and would expect from a dealer is this:

1) Pictures on the site be of the watch I'm purchasing. I'll use my own judgment, based on these pictures, as to whether it's appearance is 100%, or something close enough to it.

2) If you say it has an ETA movement, then it better have an ETA movement. Thus far, I've never purchased a rep advertised as having an ETA and not gotten exactly that. Ya, most (if not all) of them are assembled somewhere in Asia, but it's still an ETA movement. To me, that's all that matters. Now, they are starting to introduce Asian "copies" of the 2824/2836. These are NOT ETA movements, but are copies in the same vein as the Asian 7750's. If the rep you are selling as a "copy" movement, I want to know!

3) If a watch is advertised as having a sapphire crystal, it better have one. There is no comparison between a sapphire and a mineral crystal. I can tell the difference the second I handle one and to me, this is a deal breaker. I don't want mineral glass and I wouldn't buy a rep with a mineral glass crystal (unless it was a sub $100 rep, which I rarely buy). Again, I've never had a problem here in the past, but it would seem others have.

Basically, the 'mechanicals' of the watch should be 100% accurately described. The aesthetics I can judge for myself assuming a dealer is honest and selling me the same watch that is in the pictures on their site. But I have to rely on the dealer to describe the 'mechanicals' of the watch in an honest way. If they do that, I'm happy.

SR

[gioarmani]

I never really took much notice of that--so even the newest Eta Subs, for instance, don't utilize real Eta movements? The crystal is only glass--I'm curious as to how to truly tell the difference; I thought water would bead up like a freshly waxed car on sapphire, but on glass it wouldn't? Hmmm...

I will add that it seems--and maybe I'm mistaken--but a lot of people think that when they get a "sapphire crystal", they're essentially expecting a slice from an actual sapphire; like a precious stone in a piece of fine jewelery. If real sapphires existed large enough to cut watch crystals from, they'd be in sitting in museums, not under diamond saws. Even Rolex gens use "synthetic" sapphires; they're all lab grown.

From Europestar:

What exactly is synthetic sapphire?

It is a very hard, transparent material made of crystallizing aluminum oxide at very high temperatures. Chemically, synthetic sapphire is the same as the natural sapphire used in jewelry, but without the coloring agents that give the gemstone its various hues.

When it is heated, the synthetic sapphire forms round masses that are sliced into pieces with diamond-coated saws. These disks are then ground and polished into watch crystals. (One reason sapphire crystals are relatively expensive is that the tools required to make them are costly.)

Sapphire (whether natural or synthetic) is one of the hardest substances on earth. It measures 9 on the Mohs scale, which is a system for rating the relative hardness of various materials. (Diamond measures 10, the highest rating.) Watch crystals made of synthetic sapphire are often marketed as "scratch resistant", meaning they are very difficult - but not impossible - to scratch. Diamond can scratch them; so can man-made materials that incorporate silicon carbide, with, with a Mohs rating of between 9 and 10, is, like diamond, harder than sapphire. These materials are sometimes used to make simulated-stone surfaces for furniture or walls. The watch wearer should note that accidentally scraping a sapphire crystal against such a surface could cause a scratch.

Because it's grown in labs, it can be turned into practically anything:

http://www.swissjewel.com/jewels_gallery.htm

So is it true that my watches (SMP, Sub, etc.) have sapphire (regardless of how, or which lab made it), or are they simple glass/ mineral-glass?

[SportsterRider]

I never really took much notice of that--so even the newest Eta Subs, for instance, don't utilize real Eta movements?

As far as I know, they've only recently started making Asian 'copies' of the 2824/2836 movements. Unless you JUST bought a Sub, it's unlikely that you have one of these copies. Now, a lot of people assume that if there is a genuine 2824/2836 movement in their rep, then it's swiss. That's only partially true and depends on what you consider "swiss". The vast majority of genuine ETA 2824/2836 movements are assembled in Asia. ETA has assembly plants all over Asia and this is where the majority of them come from. To me, this is good enough as even though it wasn't assembled in Switzerland, it's still using genuine ETA parts from ETA themselves.

Now, the asian COPIES of these movements are NOT ETA movements. This is the same thing with the Asian 7750's. While they are very similar, they are most certainly NOT ETA.

The crystal is only glass--I'm curious as to how to truly tell the difference; I thought water would bead up like a freshly waxed car on sapphire, but on glass it wouldn't? Hmmm...

Every rep that I've ever bought that was advertised as having a synthetic sapphire crystal has had one. For me, the easiest way to tell the different is to tap on the crystal. Sapphire sounds solid. Mineral sounds hollow, almost like tapping on a drinking glass. I can also tell the difference by the way it 'feels'. Sapphire feels smoother to me than mineral glass.

I will add that it seems--and maybe I'm mistaken--but a lot of people think that when they get a "sapphire crystal", they're essentially expecting a slice from an actual sapphire; like a precious stone in a piece of fine jewelery. If real sapphires existed large enough to cut watch crystals from, they'd be in sitting in museums, not under diamond saws. Even Rolex gens use "synthetic" sapphires; they're all lab grown.

I can't speak for others, but when I see an advertisement for a watch that says it has a "sapphire" crystal, I take that to mean synthetic.

From Europestar:

What exactly is synthetic sapphire?

It is a very hard, transparent material made of crystallizing aluminum oxide at very high temperatures. Chemically, synthetic sapphire is the same as the natural sapphire used in jewelry, but without the coloring agents that give the gemstone its various hues.

When it is heated, the synthetic sapphire forms round masses that are sliced into pieces with diamond-coated saws. These disks are then ground and polished into watch crystals. (One reason sapphire crystals are relatively expensive is that the tools required to make them are costly.)

Sapphire (whether natural or synthetic) is one of the hardest substances on earth. It measures 9 on the Mohs scale, which is a system for rating the relative hardness of various materials. (Diamond measures 10, the highest rating.) Watch crystals made of synthetic sapphire are often marketed as "scratch resistant", meaning they are very difficult - but not impossible - to scratch. Diamond can scratch them; so can man-made materials that incorporate silicon carbide, with, with a Mohs rating of between 9 and 10, is, like diamond, harder than sapphire. These materials are sometimes used to make simulated-stone surfaces for furniture or walls. The watch wearer should note that accidentally scraping a sapphire crystal against such a surface could cause a scratch.

Yep - this is a 100% accurate description.

So is it true that my watches (SMP, Sub, etc.) have sapphire (regardless of how, or which lab made it), or are they simple glass/ mineral-glass?

If your watches were described as having a sapphire crystal and the dealer(s) wasn't lying to you, then it's got a synthetic sapphire crystal.

[swdivad]

as i have also said before with regards to the use of the term "swiss" these guys also sell to people that are not us. They have to keep the terms on their site competative to the other crap thats out there in the ether.

This term swiss is thrown around quite often, and I am also getting pretty annoyed with it.... It is either ETA or not, and it should be advertised to us wether it is or asian movement... There is no room for error here.

I think there should definatly be some accountability that the boards hold to the dealers - i think there should be no wiggle room at ALL with the movements - that is what were paying the extra money for - some of the other 1:1 - or "perfect" thats just sales "puffying" and remember, these guys are out to make a living - not run a charity service.

Here here!

I believe there should be more details and transparency on what 'we on the boards' are going to get when we put our money down... We are here not to get ripped off, and I think we should be protected from that.

you have to keep in mind the big picture - we get a great product that is generally truthful - i got awatch for another friend who had bad experiences with canal street - i said don't worry this won't be a dud, these dealers will stand behind the watches. - at first he thought his new one was a dud - he wanted to "return" it, - i said you can't, this isn't Macy's but if its broken we can get it fixed.

Yes we do get a great product from some great dealers... And it is true that they are 'generally' truthful... The dealer that I have purchased from most even steers me away from watches that he knows I wouldn't be happy with the quality... But I have received a few pieces (from several of our dealers) that have 'questionable' inards and even more questionable quality on the outside as well

I don't know if it's because the volume of deals is increasing... increasing the risk of getting a dud... or some pieces are just slipping through the cracks with problems, but I think we should be getting treated a little better than the 'masses' that just want a watch that's 'OK enough'

-- The "perfect" rep is the one that brings enjoyment -

I love that line... Perfect!

[Watchmeister]

What makes you think we dont get treated better?

[Guest TTK]

I base my judgement on what I'm told....backed up by my own research......for instance....sapphire.....I use the word genuine ....backed up by my tester....sometimes I even put up a photograph of it being tested...( see recent posts )......as for 'Swiss'...that's a very widespread and loosely used term.....I prefer not to use it.....from my point of view...... recently...... they are all Asian....I have a 183G up for sale at present....I use the term Swiss in that adverrt because it was one of the original 183's with Unitas movement.....no foil on the bridge plates etc etc....I also had a Breitling Chronomat.....wherein I use the term 1:1.....but I use that only in the dimensions...because it's the exact dimensions of the original.....!

I've seen watches on the most prominent dealers site that I have also been selling.....and the case dimensions are way off.....stating diameters that bear no relation to the original or even the ones I'm selling.....I mean.....how can you have a Navitimer....with a difference of 5mm in thickness.....I'll tell you how.......these dealers are NOT taking the dimensions of the watch....they're relying on factory information.......which is all over the place.....!

Edited January 20, 2007 by TTK

[tonyp1]

I can say that I know for sure that my sub has a Sapphire. I recently posted pics of this when I cut off the cyclops. At one point I used a hammer and a screw driver. Funny thing is it was more like working with metal than glass. Sparks were flying and It had a kind of sulfur smell. One thing I did notice was that the cyclops is NOT sapphire. It shattered and scratched. I cant say that a cyclops in a GEN rolex is a sapphire as mine are all plastic crystals. I have a date just on order from Andrew I hope this watch has a sapphire. Have any of you bought watches from him that you know not to have sapphires?

Edited January 20, 2007 by tonyp1

[fotoman]

Yes we do get a great product from some great dealers... And it is true that they are 'generally' truthful... The dealer that I have purchased from most even steers me away from watches that he knows I wouldn't be happy with the quality... But I have received a few pieces (from several of our dealers) that have 'questionable' inards and even more questionable quality on the outside as well

Look, there are several dealers that i am very skeptical of using again. However, i am not sure they have "lied" as i didn't pay enough attention or do the research first. The photo was there, i just didn't know what to look for. But thats part of the learning process.

I never went to perfect swiss or whatever teh scam sites are, but i did buy a "$210 quartz breitling - which wuldn't go for more than 100 bucks shipped here" and a 150$ quartz chopard that i'm sure silix sells for 60 bucks.

and that was after TONS of research- of course it was several years ago and before i was even into message boards.

"with all your faults, i love you still, it had to be you, wonderful you, it had to be you."

we have it very good now, - [censored] do you guys remember fore perfect clones and trusty time- you had basically some photobucket albums - dealers were giving different prices to each member - you had to email dealers to get prices and you had to be careful not to email to often or they would stop responding. Or you could go to paul mart. and take your risk - good month - bad month

we now have several sites with tons of photos and PRICES - - and IMHO all movements are "asian" its just are they high quality or low quality asians but, if its the difference between an asian eta copy and an asian somthing else - i think we should know the difference - alright, i'm rambling