Little White Lies We're Supposed To Tolerate?

[eddhead]

I wasn't bringing it up as a new issue. I went to a few websites, in particular, those that were touting this watch and those which usually have excellent photo documentation of their products, to see if there was any prior indication of a problem. I was surprised to find no pictures of the inside of this watch, in particular, on websites where photographs of the "works" are the norm in the advertisements. I find it hard to believe this was an oversight, and I find it equally hard to believe the better and more respected dealers here could ever hope to put this over on us, or risk the embarrasment of a public flogging such as this. They very openly worked with this particular community on this very watch. Someone was bound to open up this new and irresistable toy....and then howl bloody murder finding a worm in the apple. I don't know how they could have been ignorant of it...and yet I can't imagine tham risking this by covering it up. Very strange.

It is curious... All along, I have been wondering why someone would put misleading advertising out there, knowing that at some point one or more of our experts would open a watch and inspect its movement. It is one of the reasons I thought this was perhaps a nondeliberate miscommunication resulting from a language barrier, but i am feeling very uneasy about that now.. expecially considering the lack of input from dealers other than Neil and Jay.

[tvt]

The reason dealers put out misinformation, even though they know people will eventually catch on, is simple... MORE MONEY.

Look at this very thread. Even when the lies are called out some people, in fact a LOT of people, for some INSANE reason, simply shrug and say "It's OK to be scammed". Hell, peopel are actuallt arguing about it, saying that, in essence, they EXPECT to be scammed in the world of fake watches and so it is somehow OK. With this attitude why would dealers bother to be 100% truthful? People apparantly will buy the watches even when they know they are being scammed.

The Bell and Ross is a great example, it is a very low quality peice with a poor movement and stamped screws and so on. The description is full of lies and yet people buy. They seem to not REALLy want to know the truth so they can make ridiculous posts about how "beautiful" the watch is and how it is "better the the genuine".

I think the dealers know that sure, some people will catch on and feel scammed and not buy from them in the future, but MOST buyers will either be ignorant of the facts, or simply not care about the facts, others will be fooled. Why tell the truth when you can sell a ton more with lies?

[crystalcranium]

The reason dealers put out misinformation, even though they know people will eventually catch on, is simple... MORE MONEY.

Look at this very thread. Even when the lies are called out some people, in fact a LOT of people, for some INSANE reason, simply shrug and say "It's OK to be scammed". Hell, peopel are actuallt arguing about it, saying that, in essence, they EXPECT to be scammed in the world of fake watches and so it is somehow OK. With this attitude why would dealers bother to be 100% truthful? People apparantly will buy the watches even when they know they are being scammed.

The Bell and Ross is a great example, it is a very low quality peice with a poor movement and stamped screws and so on. The description is full of lies and yet people buy. They seem to not REALLy want to know the truth so they can make ridiculous posts about how "beautiful" the watch is and how it is "better the the genuine".

I think the dealers know that sure, some people will catch on and feel scammed and not buy from them in the future, but MOST buyers will either be ignorant of the facts, or simply not care about the facts, others will be fooled. Why tell the truth when you can sell a ton more with lies?

Sad but maybe all too true. Maybe the B&R is a special case. The watch itself is such a curiosity piece, ie. the only people who would buy it would be people enchanted with it, that perhaps this is a calculated scam.

[fitmic]

The reason dealers put out misinformation, even though they know people will eventually catch on, is simple... MORE MONEY.

Look at this very thread. Even when the lies are called out some people, in fact a LOT of people, for some INSANE reason, simply shrug and say "It's OK to be scammed". Hell, peopel are actuallt arguing about it, saying that, in essence, they EXPECT to be scammed in the world of fake watches and so it is somehow OK. With this attitude why would dealers bother to be 100% truthful? People apparantly will buy the watches even when they know they are being scammed.

The Bell and Ross is a great example, it is a very low quality peice with a poor movement and stamped screws and so on. The description is full of lies and yet people buy. They seem to not REALLy want to know the truth so they can make ridiculous posts about how "beautiful" the watch is and how it is "better the the genuine".

I think the dealers know that sure, some people will catch on and feel scammed and not buy from them in the future, but MOST buyers will either be ignorant of the facts, or simply not care about the facts, others will be fooled. Why tell the truth when you can sell a ton more with lies?

Thank you tvt for writing this. Exactly the way I feel.

What sickens me too, is when people blame it's an illegal business, therfor it's okay to stretch the truth.

An ETA is an ETA, nothing else!

Superlume is superlume, nothing else!

To be honest I hope that Andrew and Josh got screwed by the factory, and not them trying to screw us.

[tvt]

>>>An ETA is an ETA, nothing else!

Superlume is superlume, nothing else!<<<

Right, the point that has been made again and again and yet some people still miss (or ignore) is that knowingly purchasing a fake watch may in fact be illegal (making them certainly is) but you do know what you are buying going in to it. You are not expecting a genuine watch and ending up with a copy. So when a dealer tells you there is a "genuine ETA" in the watch, and charges accordingly, and then gives you a crappy, Asian copy movement, well you were then scammed. Exactly the same as if someone sold a fake watch as a genuine.

In a much broader sense I do understand the argument that "This is a business full of liars and cheats and theives because everything about it, front to back, is built on lies and breaking laws. Therefore you should not be surprised when these same scammers scam you." OK, point taken, but then you shoudl simply never buy a watch, get out and call it quits.

See, the trouble comes in when someone smiles to your face and acts liek a friend, and then scams you behind your back. I don't believe that EVERY dealer is a scammer and that is why I think there IS the possibility of changing things and getting honest descriptions. We see some of the smaller guys doing that already.

[namor]

Like I mentioned before, I bought one these Bell&Ross watches too - don't need to be specific

from whom as right now there are just 2 Dealers offering them with the mentioned description.

The Dealer I bought from tried to convince me at first when I complained about the missing/wrong

features (Superlume and ETA-2892).

After mailing him back that this really is no behaviour and pointing him to this Thread where the

Bell&Ross is discussed over some pages including Pictures - he is willing to work with me to get

this resolved.

I will update you all after finding a solution.

Till we know better my advice is: STAY AWAY FROM THE B&R ! (Don't mean to shout in a rude way...)

[vmena]

An ETA is an ETA, nothing else!

Superlume is superlume, nothing else!

mmm... is this so difficult to understand by our dealers? They should be the first line to stop scamming... and being scammed also. If not, who are we going to trust in?

[namor]

mmm... is this so difficult to understand by our dealers? They should be the first line to stop scamming... and being scammed also. If not, who are we going to trust in?

You're right my friend - but I think there are differences.

2 Possibilities:

1.) Mislabeling of Products using "Rep-Language" (for example calling asian or partially asian movements Swiss ETA).

2.) Dealers *possibly* being cheated theirselfs by their suppliers/dropshippers. (For example the sapphire issue with the

47mm PAMs a while ago - delivering the watches with mineral-crystal...)

Nobody get me wrong please - both are bad cause they harm us, I just would be cautious calling our dealers scammers...

[Craytonic]

I think when someone always takes the caseback off for a photo for almost every watch on their site and then doesn't take the caseback off for a watch that has a kooky movement does so for a reason.

[PKDICK]

What a fun thread! The most honest and straightforward I have seen...

Anyway, from the big newbie that I am:

1. I have always assumed that all the movements in all the watches sold by all the dealers are Chinese copies, not Swiss ETA (or Valjoux, or Unitas or whatever).

2. This doesn't bother me in the slightest.

3. If I order an 'ETA 2836' I do so because I assume it will run at the stated bph and therefore 'look the part' in terms of second hand sweep more than a 'Miyota 21J' (and I always do BTW).

4. I'm pretty sure the stated 'Miyota 21J' is a Chinese copy of the Japanese Miyota anyway.

5. (And a bit unrelated) I'm not going to buy any of the chronograph watches real soon, until the Chinese sort it out.

We are buying reps after all...wheres the problem in rep movements (as long as they work as they should) ?

And on the misinformation - just marketing. In this product sector can we really expect 100% honesty?

[tvt]

>>>We are buying reps after all...wheres the problem in rep movements (as long as they work as they should) ?<<<

No offense but I am getting a bit sick of this type of question because it has been answered a dozen times or more in this very thread.

There is a HUGE difference between buying a copy movement because you like them and paid an appropriate price for it, and being misled into thinking you are buying (and paying more) for a genuine ETA movement.

People can argue that the Chinese movements are just as good and other such nonsence but that is NOT what this thread is about. The thread has NOTHING to do with the quality of one movement versus the next. It has to do with a dealer stating a watch has a specific movement, charging (in some cases) a lot more for that privalege, and then sending you low quality crap. This is not ONLY about movements though, if someone tells you a crystal of saphire and then you scratch the hell out of it because it is merley glass you may be a little upset, but you may be a lot upset if that same thing happened and you paid double the normal price in order to get saphire and not glass.

Having low expectations about what to expect from a dealer is all fine and good, but it does not forgive them for what in some casses is simply outright scamming.

[Pugwash]

We are buying reps after all...wheres the problem in rep movements (as long as they work as they should) ?

If we buy them assuming they have real ETAs in, it costs us extra. Also, if it breaks down, real ETAs can be fixed by any competent watchmaker: the parts and expertise are readily available.

If we pay extra for this security and the dealers screw us over, then we're being conned. Some of us don't like it, while some of us seem quite ok with it.

ps. Who on earth uses Miyota movements in reps these days?

[crystalcranium]

What a fun thread! The most honest and straightforward I have seen...

Anyway, from the big newbie that I am:

1. I have always assumed that all the movements in all the watches sold by all the dealers are Chinese copies, not Swiss ETA (or Valjoux, or Unitas or whatever).

2. This doesn't bother me in the slightest.

3. If I order an 'ETA 2836' I do so because I assume it will run at the stated bph and therefore 'look the part' in terms of second hand sweep more than a 'Miyota 21J' (and I always do BTW).

4. I'm pretty sure the stated 'Miyota 21J' is a Chinese copy of the Japanese Miyota anyway.

5. (And a bit unrelated) I'm not going to buy any of the chronograph watches real soon, until the Chinese sort it out.

We are buying reps after all...wheres the problem in rep movements (as long as they work as they should) ?

And on the misinformation - just marketing. In this product sector can we really expect 100% honesty?

Typical response from someone who's just "damn happy to be here" and doesn't have a clue as to what passion in this hobby means.

Why not buy an Invicta and just keep everyone 15 feet away from it? It would save you the obligitory Submariner purchase.

[PKDICK]

Whoo! - wasn't expecting such a fast response! Sorry if i ruffled feathers...

I'm not condoning misrepresentation. If a dealer is emphatically stating that you get an ETA (Valjoux, Unitas etc) you should get it. If you have to pay more for it you should absolutely get it. The dealers I have dealt with are not claiming 'genuine Swiss ETA' though, and I am not expecting it. I like dealing with vendors who are as straightforward as possible.

I don't have low expectations either. If I buy an 'ETA' equipped watch I expect it to perform as an ETA equipped watch. The Chinese stuff is hugely underrated IMHO. I'll take the risk on the need for regular serving though.

On the thread - I read p 1 - 7 and skipped to 16. If I missed something, I apologise,.

[crystalcranium]

Whoo! - wasn't expecting such a fast response! Sorry if i ruffled feathers...

I'm not condoning misrepresentation. If a dealer is emphatically stating that you get an ETA (Valjoux, Unitas etc) you should get it. If you have to pay more for it you should absolutely get it. The dealers I have dealt with are not claiming 'genuine Swiss ETA' though, and I am not expecting it. I like dealing with vendors who are as straightforward as possible.

I don't have low expectations either. If I buy an 'ETA' equipped watch I expect it to perform as an ETA equipped watch. The Chinese stuff is hugely underrated IMHO. I'll take the risk on the need for regular serving though.

On the thread - I read p 1 - 7 and skipped to 16. If I missed something, I apologise,.

You are condoning misrepresentation by saying ETAlike is close enough for dealers to claim genuine ETA. Like Pugwash said, having a movement that can be serviced is what I'm paying for. My Asian 21js are basically disposable watches and I wont pay more than the market rate for them.

[PKDICK]

Typical response from someone who's just "damn happy to be here" and doesn't have a clue as to what passion in this hobby means.

Why not buy an Invicta and just keep everyone 15 feet away from it? It would save you the obligitory Submariner purchase.

I'm a newbie and I 'fessed up as such. I don't have the knowledge and experience you guys have, but I can still like reps. Passion? yeah, I'll grow into it. I want what I buy to perform as it should, period.

On the Invicta jibe - that could apply to watches costing way more than the 8296, which is even worse. There are plenty of 'homages' out there touching $1000 which strikes me as a lot sadder than buying a good rep.

'Damn happy to be here' - yes, I guess I am. For now.

[crystalcranium]

I'm a newbie and I 'fessed up as such. I don't have the knowledge and experience you guys have, but I can still like reps. Passion? yeah, I'll grow into it. I want what I buy to perform as it should, period.

On the Invicta jibe - that could apply to watches costing way more than the 8296, which is even worse. There are plenty of 'homages' out there touching $1000 which strikes me as a lot sadder than buying a good rep.

'Damn happy to be here' - yes, I guess I am. For now.

I'm not sure where this is going but you seem to be doing some backpedaling from your original post so...good.

This is about paying $300 for a watch that is supposed to have an ETA movement in it and getting a watch that usually sells for $100. Nothing more.

[PKDICK]

OK. OK.... I'm back. If a dealer says ETA it should be ETA. Agreed.

I backpedal good.

And if you pay $300 for a watch with a genuine ETA ? You should get one. On Pugwash's post I agree 100% - you pay extra for that serviceability, you expect what you pay for.

Just to be frank? I'm paying about $200 max and I'm very happy with what I'm getting, from one of the most respected dealers here. Maybe I don't have high expectations, but I'm happy. So yeah, just happy to be here. Don't knock it.

[TwoTone]

Just an FYI~

This Thread and it's contents are being discussed in Admin...

We take these things seriously...

And are considering the proper response/action to the question's raised here...

We appreciate the participation in this Thread...

Thanks,

The RWG Admin Team

PS: We also truly appreciate that this Thread has been handled in a very professional manner!

[tvt]

PKDICK:

Your limitation is not that you are not well intentioned or even that you do not understand the scope of the situation, it is that you do not have a base of past experience to draw from. You are in the honeymoon period where it seems as if you are getting all the fun of a genuine for a fraction of the price, and in many ways you are.

However you have had your watches for a short period of time, you cannot judge them in any meaningful way. To say you are happy with the Asian movements now is fine, but you may feel differently when they stop working. Some peopel feel it is OK to toss away a $200 watch every year and pick up a new one, others get [censored]. $200 is afterall plenty of money to get some nice store bought watches that will last a long time and can be serviced should you desire, they generally represent a much better value than fakes do in the long run.

But that is niether here nor there in context to this thread. It is really simply about receiving what you bought, regardless of price. I don't care if someone paid $1000 for an Asian movement watch, as long as they knew that is what they were going to receive. You are knowling purchasing Asian movement watches. At this point in your education about these things you are happy with them. Should you continue to get more involved you may find that your tastes and expectations change. but as long as you get what you think you are getting I am cool with it. it only veres off course when you start receiving things VERY different from what you paid for.

[Scott Earle]

I don't post here very often, but I do think that Pug was right to ask the question (for the subject is a question), and to raise the whole issue of 'honesty' in a hobby such as collecting replica *anything* - but especially replica watches, which is seen pretty much as being an illegal hobby almost everywhere.

I was expecting from his original post that everyone would basically reply saying "yeah, we've had enough of being lied to!", but have been amazed at some people's replies saying "what do you expect, you're buying illegal stuff. You're going to be ripped off - deal with it".

Personally, I don't buy the whole "it's OK to lie in advertising, because that's what advertising is about" thing. If someone is offering something for sale, and when you get it, it is not as described - then that person is deceiving you and is a liar, and arguably a thief.

You can say "but it's an illegal hobby!" as much as you like, but I don't see that as the same issue. Someone else said that if someone sold oregano claiming that it was weed, then they would be due a kicking. This is not a bad analogy, because even when dealing in something that is illegal, nobody likes to be ripped off.

And as for the "it does not matter what the movement inside it is" crowd, if that were truly the case, why would the 'bad' dealers be misrepresenting the movements in the first place? If it truly did not matter if you had an ETA, a 'genuine Swiss' ETA or a poor Asian copy of an ETA ... then why would the 'bad' dealers all be claiming 'Swiss ETA' in their adverts?

Another point ... the people on this forum represent the people who DO care. They want to know what's inside the watch, what the 'glass' is really made of, how close to being 'accurate' the replica is. It's all very well saying "we know what the terms mean - when they say 'genuine ETA Swiss movement, honest', we know it's a cheap Asian knock-off copy" ... but that really is not the point! Why should we have two sets of standards? Why is it OK for a noob to be ripped off? We don't want people to share our love for a well-made timepiece, genuine or otherwise?

Lying is lying. I was brought up to believe that you should always be honest. Buying something that is sold as a replica watch may not be 'legal' everywhere in the world, but at least if you offer one for sale as being a replica watch, you are not claiming it is something else.

Basically, I guess I am saying that there is a difference between dishonesty and illegality.

Just my 2p's worth

SWW

[Pugwash]

Lying is lying. I was brought up to believe that you should always be honest. Buying something that is sold as a replica watch may not be 'legal' everywhere in the world, but at least if you offer one for sale as being a replica watch, you are not claiming it is something else.

Basically, I guess I am saying that there is a difference between dishonesty and illegality.

*ponk*

Did you hear that? That was the sound of a nail being hit on the head.

[vmena]

You're right my friend - but I think there are differences.

2 Possibilities:

1.) Mislabeling of Products using "Rep-Language" (for example calling asian or partially asian movements Swiss ETA).

2.) Dealers *possibly* being cheated theirselfs by their suppliers/dropshippers. (For example the sapphire issue with the

47mm PAMs a while ago - delivering the watches with mineral-crystal...)

Nobody get me wrong please - both are bad cause they harm us, I just would be cautious calling our dealers scammers...

I agree.. but then we must assume that the current situation is not only due to abusing of drop shipping by our dealers... is also due to not doing one of their most important tasks: ensuring (however) that what they advertise is what they are really selling. If they make half of the money we guess (following deductions from an early post) they have the resources to see each of the watches they sell at least once. And ask for a random sample time to time. Is it so difficult? The lack of QC in these countries must be not only a matter of reducing prices but also a way of living

[chronology1066]

@Namor - Thanks for pointing out the B&R, I really thought it had gotten good enough to get. The superlume and ETA were selling it to me big style. I held off due to other cash commitments, glad I did and I hope you get some resolution. If a dealer is being mislead by a factory then they should be able to respond to the customer when they complain, just keeping silent or bullshitting is not the way forward. Once again, as has been mentioned, where are the dealers with their thoughts? Even if it is one of them saying, yeah, air point, we will try and be a bit more aware and open with our dealings. We are not quite at the levels of goreplicas or one of those other total scam sites but we should stop this trend before it goes in the same direction. We all came here because we were all fed up of getting ripped by bad site, lets not let it happen here.

[Pugwash]

If a dealer is being mislead by a factory then they should be able to respond to the customer when they complain, just keeping silent or bullshitting is not the way forward

It shouldn't matter. You're buying from the dealer, not the factory. Words like "my dealer lied to me" should only be heard in the email confirming that the correct replacement has arrived.

Besides, they've read this thread, they've seen the reaction and the B&R is still advertised as Superlume and ETA2892.